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On July 29 2021 00:42 Timebon3s wrote:
You understand what he means though, and it's not THAT wrong.
I don't live in his head, so no. I don't know what he means.
If the assumption is that we only know the winrate of each race, then the suspicion that the worse performing race is actually easier to play is not as reasonable (not necessarily wrong, just not as reasonable) as the suspicion that that the better performing race is easier to play.
This is obvious because it makes no sense - unless we know otherwise - to assume that people would have better results with the harder race.
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He means that C rank with Terran is B rank with Protoss, because P is easier to play than T.
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On July 29 2021 02:40 Timebon3s wrote:
He means that C rank with Terran is B rank with Protoss, because P is easier to play than T.
That's not what he said. He said this (in response to me saying that the winrates would not indicate terran being more difficult than protoss):
If Terran is more difficult, that would simply mean that, lets say just for example, a B terran player in "objective skill", would have an actual rank of C instead - because his skill doesn't translate into wins because of the difficulty of playing Terran. Meanwhile, lets say, Protoss would be so easy that a B rank Protoss is actually a C ranked player in "objective skill".
His argument was in response to me saying that terran is showing a winrate advantage over protoss. He tries to explain this in the following way:
Assumption: Terran is actually more difficult than protoss.
Conclusion: Terrans with B level skill (as per the protoss perspective I'd assume) would end up at rank C.
I won't explain why this conclusion is impossible to draw from the assumption, that would be an unnecessary tangent.
The real problem with his reasoning is that he assumes terran to be more difficult, and he reasons this by saying that terrans of a certain skill end up at a (lower) rank that they don't deserve according to their skill.
But that ignores the observation: terrans are showing a winrate advantage. This contradicts his argument where he says that terran players would end up at (lower) undeserving ranks. This fact throws a curveball into his reasoning, because reality shows that terran players are quite clearly not ending up at (lower) undeserving ranks. If anything, they'd end up at higher ranks (as shown by the winrate advantage).
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Sheesh, I got something wrong myself in my previous comment, too. krooked compared terran and protoss - in response to me pointing out that terran has a winrate advantage over zerg? My head's spinning.
So now I've failed to keep the argument straight, too. This is getting out of hand, I think I'll just leave it for real before the discussion devolves even further.
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Every race is equal and everyone who plays them is facing their own unique challenges.
For example, for terrans it is challenging to consistantly macro marine/medic. Zerg are challenged by muta micro. Protoss players are challenged spelling their names correctly or tying their shoes.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Every1 defending their race...
Objectively however Tesagi was the term that came out first.
I wonder why...
That being said Splash would probably be the best with any race.
Just a big bit easier with Terran. And that little bit makes a difference the better you are.
^_._^
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tf am i reading, i miss the good ol days when people didn't type essays about balance and shit they don't know anything about and actually tried to learn the game and beat people. This is one of the biggest reason why foreigners never can or will compete with the koreans period.
Bitching and complaining about stuff and not working hard enough to get good. It's not just starcraft it's in general also.
The foreigners that were good and dominated the foreign scene was rarely the protoss players, and the ones that says protoss is a 1a2a3a race has no understanding about the game at all. Learn how to play the game instead of bitching.
If someones gonna tell me "oh protoss is easier in lower elo" That's because in lower elo people don't know how to play and pretty much any strategy works vs newbs so stop fooling urself
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Well you made a new account to necro a balance thread. That speaks for itself.
Then you go on to say this didn’t happen in the past, to argue that it actually did happen and that’s why foreigners never beat Koreans
GG no re
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On August 26 2021 19:10 Timebon3s wrote:
Well you made a new account to necro a balance thread. That speaks for itself.
Then you go on to say this didn’t happen in the past, to argue that it actually did happen and that’s why foreigners never beat Koreans
GG no re
New account? Bro my account is way older than yours it's just that i rarely used tl.net to post mostly to lurk so get ur facts straight first before you reply to someone.
No before people actually competed against koreans and worked super hard and did decent vs them compared to now. I don't think you were here way back when iccup/pgtour/wgtour was active and if you were u should know. People didn't bitch as much as they do now and i think it's because back then streaming wasn't as big so the only forum to do it on was tl.net or gg.net but here we had mostly beef matches and tournaments and other dumb shit going on.
"gg no re" lmfao literally
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I did, and people always whined
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terran is definitely OP in brood war, especially on all the meta maps for the last 20 years
just check the stats, heh.
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Some are just more confortable playing as humans killing space aliens. Flash isn't just Broodwar's champion; he's Earth's champion.
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Terran players always whine as if they don't have the easiest match-ups. TvZ is the easiest match-up in the entire game, TvT is the easiest same race match-up. So the only hard match-up they have is TvP where they complain because... Protoss can take the map and have to send in several armies to manage to destroy the Terran. Try playing Zerg and Protoss and experience the hardest match-ups.. As Protoss you can't properly scout Zerg, Terran has scans which are cheap and there's no counter to that. He just scans your base and builds the counter to what you're doing. It's like playing against someone that has map hack the entire game
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On September 19 2021 18:30 superovermind wrote:
Terran players always whine as if they don't have the easiest match-ups. TvZ is the easiest match-up in the entire game, TvT is the easiest same race match-up. So the only hard match-up they have is TvP where they complain because... Protoss can take the map and have to send in several armies to manage to destroy the Terran. Try playing Zerg and Protoss and experience the hardest match-ups.. As Protoss you can't properly scout Zerg, Terran has scans which are cheap and there's no counter to that. He just scans your base and builds the counter to what you're doing. It's like playing against someone that has map hack the entire game
Is this satire?
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On September 19 2021 18:30 superovermind wrote:
Terran players always whine as if they don't have the easiest match-ups. TvZ is the easiest match-up in the entire game, TvT is the easiest same race match-up. So the only hard match-up they have is TvP where they complain because... Protoss can take the map and have to send in several armies to manage to destroy the Terran. Try playing Zerg and Protoss and experience the hardest match-ups.. As Protoss you can't properly scout Zerg, Terran has scans which are cheap and there's no counter to that. He just scans your base and builds the counter to what you're doing. It's like playing against someone that has map hack the entire game
Lol you are the overhivemind.
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On July 26 2021 17:12 krooked wrote:
Reasons Terran is more difficult than Protoss or Zerg:
1. Importance of scouting
Terran needs to scout both in TvZ and TvP to a much larger degree than their opponents. Not only does P and Z have a wide variety of viable cheese builds, but even in standard play, Terran needs to constantly be on the lookout for what playstyle the opponent is doing.
Examples of this:
TvZ: Terran MUST know whether Z is doing hatch or pool first, whether they are saving larva or not, whether they are going fast lair or getting speed. Not having this information is potentially game losing.
Later, Terran MUST know whether Z is going mutas or lurkers, keep constant track of Z bases and dronecount, whether quick hive or greater spire. Any of these not being picked up on and responded correctly to will end in game loss. For instance, unscouted greater spire with guardian cliff abuse will result in a swift loss. Unscouted and unpunished 4th base will result in a game loss.
This requires frequent scanning, and knowledge of the specific response to each situation, for instance wraith production vs guardians, ramp block vs pool first, bunkers and turrets vs lurker bust, turrets vs mutas. Just holding a lurker bust isn't enough - Terran must know the exact follow up, or they lose to defilers in their nat.
Zerg, on the other hand, essentially only needs to know whether or not Terran is going bio or mech, which is extremely telegraphed.
TvP:
Protoss has a wide variety of playstyles. Reaver play, goon pressure, fast arbs, fast carriers, aggressive expanding etc - Terran needs to be constantly on the lookout for what P is doing, or it will be potentially game losing. Protoss doesn't need to worry about fast BCs, or any particular cheese play that requires a very specific response from P. In fact, most Terran cheeses are laughably weak.
Any build that requires P or Z to scout what T is doing is completely outside of the meta - Terran must play predictibly to be competitive.
The result of this is that both P and Z can grow very accustomed to what a standard ZvT or PvT will look like from their perspective, while T must continually evolve specific knowledge about how to play each style of Z and P, such as lurker/defiler, crazy zerg, low econ aggressive play, greedy passive play etc. Protoss knows that Terran MUST get into tank/vult/gol/vessels every single game.
2. Issues with buildings/sim city:
Terran must have knowledge about how to sim city their base for each map and each spawn location. Having the wrong sim city can mean losing the game to muta harass, not being able to macro, have units get stuck, or losing the game to recalls etc.
Further, factories and starport has add ons, making sim citying even more difficult. Supply depots are massive, adding to the difficulty. SCVs has to work on the buildings, blocking new buildings. Just the fact that things needs to be sim citied creates difficulties, like things not building because another SCV or unit popping out blocks whatever needs to be built, resulting in it not building.
Because of Terran unit weakness early on, sim city is also a prerequisite to not simply losing to the most low effort offense from Z or P. Anti zealot wall with rax and depot, anti ling wall and bunker to not die to even the intitial lings from regular 12H vs 1raxFE play etc. All of this not only requires specific knowledge on how to do it, but also requires a lot of APM and attention, which makes every other action harder.
3. Immobile armies/Difficulty of micro:
Both TvP and TvZ, Terran armies are in essence immobile, for different reasons.
In TvP, the Terran army is immobile simply because of siege tanks, and the importance of having the perfect fight to even be able to have a chance at winning the game down the line. As a result, Terran cannot readily attack or capitalize on an advantage in TvP. Protoss can easily out-expand Terran unpunished, and Terran cannot do the same. Not only does it take time to siege/unsiege, but because of the importance of a good fight, Terran army needs to crawl slowly forward, constantly keeping tabs on the Protoss army.
In TvZ, the Terran army is immobile in a different way - firstly, because of the difficulty of moving the sheer numbers of marine/medics around the map. Secondly, because marines needs to be stimmed to be effective, and the dangers of running into lurkers or defilers means that actually moving the army around the map is extremely difficult and APM intensive, taking attention away from the already difficult macro. Terran has to constantly babysit its army to avoid simply losing the game in seconds. Typical example is lurkers running into terran army while terran isn't paying attention - instant game loss. Terran has no such tricks against P or Z.
Meanwhile, Zerg and Protoss generally can a-move to a much larger degree. This can never be done with Terran.
4. Importance of upgrades:
Both in TvP and TvZ, upgrades are everything for Terran. The game simply isn't winnable without upgrades. Terran against Crazy Zerg must have upgrades quick enough - ebays literally cannot be resting, or the game will be lost. Every build must revolve around getting quick upgrades, or the game cannot be won. This also involves that any build that isn't fast upgrade economical play is essentially a cheese build. This contributes to Terrans being very predictable in standard play.
5. Importance of taking initiative, despite how difficult it is as Terran:
Terran is on a clock both vs Zerg and Protoss. Terran MUST stop Zerg economic growth, or Terran cannot win. This forces Terran to constantly be threatening Zerg and forcing Zerg to build units, sunkens and ultimately Terran must kill the Zerg economy or contain it, or else Terran will lose. Zerg on the other hand is happy to let Terran expand freely, as long as Zerg too can expland freely.
In TvP, it is a bit better for Terran because the mech army out scales in a straight up fight, but if the Protoss economy gets too big, Terran runs into a problem of having to move too far away from its production to secure bases, while unable to threaten Protoss in a similar way, resulting in Protoss having an economy so big it can take bad trades until Protoss wins a war of attrition.
Taking initiative requires intimate knowledge of timings, what the opponent can have at any given time, how the opponent plays etc. Protoss and Zerg can have much more passive relationship to such timings and go unpunished.
6. Lack of static defence:
Zerg has spore colonies and sunken colonies, Protoss has photo cannons - fast to make, simple and effective static defence. Meanwhile, Terran only has turrets for anti air, and bunkers. Bunkers are limited in use because it can only house 4 marines, which is ineffective vs both Zerg and Protoss at holding bases. As such, Terran MUST leave clumps of units to defend, or keep tabs on enemy movement at all times to avoid being ran over and counter attacked. Because of Terran army immobility, counter attacks are also a lot more harmful.
Illustrations of how difficult Terran is to play:
Hawk did a one handed challenge to C rank as Zerg. I challenge ANY player to do the same with Terran - playing from F rank to C rank only using one hand. I am certain it is literally impossible.
Foreigner Terrans usually struggle playing at the highest level. BSL medals are a nice illustration of how poorly foreigner Terrans generally do compared to foreigner P and Z.
The reason Terrans has been a lot more successful at the higher levels in pro gaming can be easily explained - considering how mechanically demanding and difficult the race is to play, its effectiveness will keep rising as we approach perfect play, while Z and P in comparison caps out a lot sooner.
It is completely understandable that most people don't want to accept or admit, even to themselves, that this is the fact. If Z and P players were to admit that Terran simply was a lot harder to play, that would potentially mean that they were not in fact the superior player when they win against a Terran. This would obviously hurt their egos a lot. When people win games, they want to feel they are actually better than their opponent. Nobody wants to win just because they picked a certain race. This doesn't however mean, that that isn't exactly what happens.
If you could somehow have three identical players start playing starcraft, each picking each respective race, I have no doubt in my mind that after 1 year of play, the Terran would be the weakest performer of the three. Maybe after several years, this would no longer be the case.
You are completely right. Only change T to Z in your post.
Zerg is hardest race to play. That's why Zerg has most silver medals in the history of StarCraft.
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On October 14 2021 16:28 bovienchien wrote:
You are completely right. Only change T to Z in your post.
Zerg is hardest race to play. That's why Zerg has most silver medals in the history of StarCraft.
There is no reason to believe being the winningest race equals or is even correlated with race difficulty. If we apply your logic, Terran is the easiest and Protoss is the hardest. Do you feel that is true?
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Is this still going on lmfao, cant believe people are so ignorant and with very little knowledge about the game. Guys lets just move on otherwise this will be a never ending thread filled with whiny people
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On October 14 2021 19:42 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2021 16:28 bovienchien wrote:
You are completely right. Only change T to Z in your post.
Zerg is hardest race to play. That's why Zerg has most silver medals in the history of StarCraft. There is no reason to believe being the winningest race equals or is even correlated with race difficulty. If we apply your logic, Terran is the easiest and Protoss is the hardest. Do you feel that is true?
Actually, when we compare to race in the StarCraft. We only need to talk about Z and T. P is just a race for newbie, lazy, not hardcore... players.
Every race even have their own limit strength. Example: T 30-90, Z 10-100, 50-60. You can see this clearly in ladder. P appears in B-A rank so much. T is usually in D-S rank and Z is absolutely in everywhere F-S rank. Z has widest limit strength. That's why we often see ZvP, ZvT are imbalance too much. Maybe Z is so weak, maybe Z is so strong.
My mean really, Z is hardest to reach maximum strong. In the highest level (top 8 of OSL, MSL, ASL, BSL, KSL...) 3 race is easy to play alike. They just are different from strength what I said above.
In short, Z is weaker than T and stronger than T too. If both players do right alike, Z will win. If both players do wrong alike, Z will lose.
Anyway, I know you are Arto. I love you so much!
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On October 15 2021 02:47 iNstiN wrote:
Is this still going on lmfao, cant believe people are so ignorant and with very little knowledge about the game. Guys lets just move on otherwise this will be a never ending thread filled with whiny people
lol its pretty obvious protoss is easiest race at this point otherwise people wouldnt keep saying it after 20 years
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EPT
