EPTWhy does flash play terran.
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Virus(shield)08
6 Posts
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Virus(shield)08
6 Posts
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Optimate
98 Posts
Terran is actually the best race to defend against cheeze as. Nowadays Korean Terran pros are fewer in number than Zerg and Protoss pros. There is also an argument that Zerg is just as hard as Terran. ZvT is the matchup for Zerg that takes the most skill. TvZ is the matchup for Terran that takes the most skill. Would be happy if someone that is A/S rank tries to do a better job explaining this than me. | ||
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Leonix
54 Posts
On June 08 2021 12:49 Virus(shield)08 wrote: So im not sure anyone even is on this forum anymore,but i was watching Artosis stream and he said terran is the weakest, and hardest race,but if thats true why does flash play terran,and why has he had more success with terran than the other races. the only thing i can think of is tvt is easier to be consistant than the other mirrors. I honestly have no clue. can someone who knows what they are talking about answer this question plz. Isnt it obvious ? The guy doesnt have a clue what he is talking about... If you want a honest answer dont ask RAGETOSIS, but your friendly Caster ARTOSIS. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4574 Posts
On June 08 2021 12:49 Virus(shield)08 wrote: So im not sure anyone even is on this forum anymore,but i was watching Artosis stream and he said terran is the weakest, and hardest race,but if thats true why does flash play terran,and why has he had more success with terran than the other races. the only thing i can think of is tvt is easier to be consistant than the other mirrors. I honestly have no clue. can someone who knows what they are talking about answer this question plz. I love artosis' casting but as a streamer artosis is like an absolute madman | ||
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kogeT
Poland1846 Posts
As for argumenting my 1st point on terran being significantly more difficult mechanicly think about these points: - Supply depots need to be build one by one, they are big and hard to fit. They are also voulnarable and they can burn down, making terran super sensitive about them in all matchups. They take a lot of space making terran bases clunky and taking a LOT of time. - You need to babysit your SCVs while making any building, and even then you will often end up with not building something. Placing turrets in mineralline is an extreme example and sometimes you need to spend 10 seconds just trying to build your turrets. Any other race builds any building instantly. - Terran macro is most intensive - building marines / vultures requires a crazy amount of APM as they build fast and are very cheap, so you will need to have more macro cycles. Compare P macro to T macro - Protoss orders 1 zealot each 25 seconds spending 100 minerals. Terran needs to order 2 marines every 15 seconds spending 100 minerals. Similar dragoon and vulture. That is almost double the effort on macro. Zerg can build multiple units with one click and produces everything from 1 building, making it way easier too. - Every terran unit has an activated ability, so it is not enough to just 1a2a3a your army and macro, you need to manualy control your units abilities most of the time. - Individual terran units are very weak vs both Z and P and only grow in power in bigger groups and good positions. You need to constantly think about where you are on the map (highgrounds, vision etc.) as otherwise you can lose in 1 second (muta attacking from highground, protoss army catchin you out of position etc.) With other races if you are out of position most of the time you can just move back and avoid the fight, but not with terran. - Terran builds are VERY voulnarable to cheese - 1 wrong decision can mean GG (1 DT, lurker instead of muta, lack of a turret in a key position vs muta, recall etc.). Now all of the above can be handled and Flash does it perfectly, and that is when terran starts to shine and becomes so strong. But 99.9% of people cannot nail it and struggle with terran and get frustrated. I recently switch to Z and it blows my mind how big of a skill gap I see when playing vs 1900-2000 MMR people facing my zerg. As terran playing vs B rank protoss, the game would still go at full length (15+min), I could risk getting cheesed, maybe get a bad engagement and play from behind to win in the long game. As zerg, I make 6 mutas and realize that terrans at that level cannot even build turrets in time and lose to 1st engagement. Protoss players lose to 6 lings or just me making hydra from 6 hath. There are no mindgames, no build order wins, just pure dominance based on mechanics etc. As I was playing terran this didnt exist, every game was difficult and I couldnt let my guard down even vs opponents that were 400-500MMR lower than me. To sum it up, it doesnt surprise me seeing 1900-2000 MMR terrans looking like "they are not doing anything and sitting in the base". They just try to macro correctly and they don't have more APM to use their army, as otherwise they float thousands and get supply blocked all the time.. | ||
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TMNT
92 Posts
It's just that only at the highest level, Terran players can effectively utilize their race's potential to dominate other races, hence we have the likes of Flash. Also explains why at lower levels, i.e. the foreign scene, it's more or less Protoss dominance. And for Artosis, he just likes to blame his shortcomings on the race he plays. If he plays Protoss and dies to a Terran 2 Fact all in, he'll claim Protoss the weakest race. | ||
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kogeT
Poland1846 Posts
In comparison you get 9 Zergs and 6 Protoss players with WR >= 50%.. saying a lot in my view. ;-) I've played all races at S rank level and terran is by far the hardest race. ![[image loading]](https://preview.redd.it/x0u7d03lpy371.png?width=960&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=40157a79bd9529e48354a3e94c931f93e08279f4) | ||
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chillzzz
25 Posts
since Koget brought up statistics, let's do that as well but we'll use a dataset (sponbang) that instead has a significant sample size and modern date range ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/ijtb2PH.png ) if someone wants to claim that Flash is sufficiently biasing these statistics? no. Flash only played a small total amount of sponbang games (243) in 2021. if someone wants to claim something where there is an extreme room for improvement, like Protoss being easier to play than Terran at D rank? git gud. On June 08 2021 20:08 TMNT wrote: the foreign scene, it's more or less Protoss dominance. this isn't true, take a look at the qualified players for the BSL proleagues and RCGs and you'll find a fairly balanced race distribution. | ||
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Virus(shield)08
6 Posts
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Optimate
98 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States9291 Posts
On June 09 2021 01:27 Optimate wrote: Hey Koget thanks for the expert opinion. How come some players argue that ZvT takes a similar high skill as TvZ does? I think it was TT1 that I saw making a case that Z is just as hard as T. I wonder if any Z mains can attest to that. Zerg has macro challenges of needing to have a better understanding of how to adequately use larva and the lack of being able to really hotkey their entire army in the late game because zerglings basically shrink your hotkeys to nothing. You also need to get quite good at muta micro which is some of the hardest micro in the game to play 2/3 matchups properly (ZvZ and ZvT). Past that though, I don't think Zerg is necessarily as hard as Terran. As Koget said, Terran is just very apm intensive of a race because of how much macro and micro you need simultaneously. When done well, I think Terran is the strongest race, which is why when you get geniuses that play Starcraft and are Terran, they rise to the cream of the crop (the bonjwas are notoriously Terran dominated). I would say in terms of difficulty, it would go Terran > Zerg >> Protoss. | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia783 Posts
If you play only/mostly reactive defensive middle of the road 'standard' strategies then you'll find that any matchup can feel like Artosis @ TvP. That sort of playstyle usually means that you're supposed to be constantly scouting, reacting properly, and even then only barely holding the (properly executed) aggression. Where the aggression(or unusual greed) can come in multiple flavors every few minutes of the game and you need to know how to deal with all of it...while your own first timing may be planned ten minutes into the game or even later. Naturally, there's a lot of room to fail - and you can play any race and any matchup like this and reap constant frustration. And surely there's a lot of mechanical difficulty in any race's modern strategies. The number of people outside of korea who can play a modern progamer's mid game+ build as it is intended(if unpolished) rather than some bastardized version of it probably doesn't reach 5, for all races involved. | ||
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Virus(shield)08
6 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2752 Posts
There is a Protoss favoured map, Ascension, on which Protoss has a good winrate against both Terran and Zerg, and there are some maps on which Zerg is even in ZvT and favoured in ZvP, and some on which Zerg is even in ZvP and favoured in ZvT, but overall, most of the current maps are good for Terran. | ||
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Hawk2
United States224 Posts
Map design which favors each specific race is well understood (at least in the Korean scene). For example, if we wanted P to have the highest winrate, then we would play on island maps. For Zerg, we would reduce the mineral patch count on bases and make the map closed. For Terran, we would increase the mineral patch count on bases and add cliffs. SC balance doesn't exist, there is only map balance. And so, the obvious questions that follows is, 'Why has Terran had the highest historical winrate?'. There are two decent answers. 1) Terran players have consistently outperformed map-makers and tournament organizer's expectations over two decades of map design and play. 2) Tournament organizers favor Terran maps as a hedge against ZvZ and PvP finals, which lead to lower viewership. Personally, I lean towards the latter. | ||
MrHoon
9930 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria725 Posts
Plus, I'd argue Terran has one thing the two other races don't - almost unstoppable access to information in the form of scan. You can drain scanner energy by forcing scans, true, and limit Terran ability to scan around, but there is no other way to stop it. Observers are nice and invisible, but they can be somewhat easily killed and they cost precious gas and Robo queue time. Zerg can scout with units other than ovies, plus they can burrow them around the map, but that requires a dedicated upgrade that's not used too often for other stuff and is pretty apm intensive. So when you're a friggin genius like Flash and you have access to info, you just get even stronger. | ||
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kogeT
Poland1846 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore3916 Posts
There is a reason why there are so few top level foreign terrans, it's simply because their mechanics aren't good enough. | ||
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