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Why does flash play terran?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Virus(shield)08
Profile Joined June 2021
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 03:55:01
June 08 2021 03:49 GMT
#1
So im not sure anyone even is on this forum anymore,but i was watching Artosis stream and he said terran is the weakest, and hardest race,but if thats true why does flash play terran,and why has he had more success with terran than the other races. the only thing i can think of is tvt is easier to be consistant than the other mirrors. I honestly have no clue. can someone who knows what they are talking about answer this question plz.
Virus(shield)08
Profile Joined June 2021
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 14:30:54
June 08 2021 03:58 GMT
#2

Optimate
Profile Joined August 2020
247 Posts
June 08 2021 04:27 GMT
#3
Everybody always says their own race is the hardest to play because they lose a lot with their own race and call it hard to play.

Terran is actually the best race to defend against cheeze as.

Nowadays Korean Terran pros are fewer in number than Zerg and Protoss pros.

There is also an argument that Zerg is just as hard as Terran. ZvT is the matchup for Zerg that takes the most skill. TvZ is the matchup for Terran that takes the most skill.

Would be happy if someone that is A/S rank tries to do a better job explaining this than me.
Leonix
Profile Joined June 2019
161 Posts
June 08 2021 05:51 GMT
#4
On June 08 2021 12:49 Virus(shield)08 wrote:
So im not sure anyone even is on this forum anymore,but i was watching Artosis stream and he said terran is the weakest, and hardest race,but if thats true why does flash play terran,and why has he had more success with terran than the other races. the only thing i can think of is tvt is easier to be consistant than the other mirrors. I honestly have no clue. can someone who knows what they are talking about answer this question plz.

Isnt it obvious ? The guy doesnt have a clue what he is talking about...

If you want a honest answer dont ask RAGETOSIS, but your friendly Caster ARTOSIS.


JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
June 08 2021 06:19 GMT
#5
On June 08 2021 12:49 Virus(shield)08 wrote:
So im not sure anyone even is on this forum anymore,but i was watching Artosis stream and he said terran is the weakest, and hardest race,but if thats true why does flash play terran,and why has he had more success with terran than the other races. the only thing i can think of is tvt is easier to be consistant than the other mirrors. I honestly have no clue. can someone who knows what they are talking about answer this question plz.

I love artosis' casting but as a streamer artosis is like an absolute madman
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2037 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 10:28:50
June 08 2021 07:30 GMT
#6
The problem with terran is that it is significantly more difficult on mechanics than any other race and it takes thousands of hours to automize your habits before you can be really good. Flash has mastered terran macro (and other things) to perfection, noone even comes close to his level. Then comes TvP which in my view is often a game of protoss mistake, e.g if protoss plays as well as terran they will win most of the time. As for TvT I fully agree it is the least random mirror of all and is purely skill dependant - if you know what you are doing you will never lose to a weaker opponent which is nice.

As for argumenting my 1st point on terran being significantly more difficult mechanicly think about these points:

- Supply depots need to be build one by one, they are big and hard to fit. They are also voulnarable and they can burn down, making terran super sensitive about them in all matchups. They take a lot of space making terran bases clunky and taking a LOT of time.
- You need to babysit your SCVs while making any building, and even then you will often end up with not building something. Placing turrets in mineralline is an extreme example and sometimes you need to spend 10 seconds just trying to build your turrets. Any other race builds any building instantly.
- Terran macro is most intensive - building marines / vultures requires a crazy amount of APM as they build fast and are very cheap, so you will need to have more macro cycles. Compare P macro to T macro - Protoss orders 1 zealot each 25 seconds spending 100 minerals. Terran needs to order 2 marines every 15 seconds spending 100 minerals. Similar dragoon and vulture. That is almost double the effort on macro. Zerg can build multiple units with one click and produces everything from 1 building, making it way easier too.
- Every terran unit has an activated ability, so it is not enough to just 1a2a3a your army and macro, you need to manualy control your units abilities most of the time.
- Individual terran units are very weak vs both Z and P and only grow in power in bigger groups and good positions. You need to constantly think about where you are on the map (highgrounds, vision etc.) as otherwise you can lose in 1 second (muta attacking from highground, protoss army catchin you out of position etc.) With other races if you are out of position most of the time you can just move back and avoid the fight, but not with terran.
- Terran builds are VERY voulnarable to cheese - 1 wrong decision can mean GG (1 DT, lurker instead of muta, lack of a turret in a key position vs muta, recall etc.).

Now all of the above can be handled and Flash does it perfectly, and that is when terran starts to shine and becomes so strong. But 99.9% of people cannot nail it and struggle with terran and get frustrated.

I recently switch to Z and it blows my mind how big of a skill gap I see when playing vs 1900-2000 MMR people facing my zerg. As terran playing vs B rank protoss, the game would still go at full length (15+min), I could risk getting cheesed, maybe get a bad engagement and play from behind to win in the long game. As zerg, I make 6 mutas and realize that terrans at that level cannot even build turrets in time and lose to 1st engagement. Protoss players lose to 6 lings or just me making hydra from 6 hath. There are no mindgames, no build order wins, just pure dominance based on mechanics etc. As I was playing terran this didnt exist, every game was difficult and I couldnt let my guard down even vs opponents that were 400-500MMR lower than me.

To sum it up, it doesnt surprise me seeing 1900-2000 MMR terrans looking like "they are not doing anything and sitting in the base". They just try to macro correctly and they don't have more APM to use their army, as otherwise they float thousands and get supply blocked all the time..
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
2656 Posts
June 08 2021 11:08 GMT
#7
Terran may be the hardest race to control (although Zerg can make a case about that) but certainly not the weakest race. The prime evidence is that a maxed out, fully upgraded Terran mech army is the closest thing to Invincibles in the game.

It's just that only at the highest level, Terran players can effectively utilize their race's potential to dominate other races, hence we have the likes of Flash. Also explains why at lower levels, i.e. the foreign scene, it's more or less Protoss dominance.

And for Artosis, he just likes to blame his shortcomings on the race he plays. If he plays Protoss and dies to a Terran 2 Fact all in, he'll claim Protoss the weakest race.
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2037 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 11:38:03
June 08 2021 11:37 GMT
#8
Exclude Flash and you find that there are 2 terrans that have a WR >= 50% while one of them is retired.

In comparison you get 9 Zergs and 6 Protoss players with WR >= 50%.. saying a lot in my view. ;-)

I've played all races at S rank level and terran is by far the hardest race.

[image loading]
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
chillzzz
Profile Joined August 2018
30 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 15:05:43
June 08 2021 14:12 GMT
#9
Artosis's stream persona is designed to entertain viewers (which he's good at doing) instead of having merit, don't take his words seriously.

since Koget brought up statistics, let's do that as well but we'll use a dataset (sponbang) that instead has a significant sample size and modern date range

[image loading]

if someone wants to claim that Flash is sufficiently biasing these statistics? no. Flash only played a small total amount of sponbang games (243) in 2021.
if someone wants to claim something where there is an extreme room for improvement, like Protoss being easier to play than Terran at D rank? git gud.

On June 08 2021 20:08 TMNT wrote:
the foreign scene, it's more or less Protoss dominance.

this isn't true, take a look at the qualified players for the BSL proleagues and RCGs and you'll find a fairly balanced race distribution.
Virus(shield)08
Profile Joined June 2021
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 18:07:32
June 08 2021 14:51 GMT
#10
Wow this response is incredible!
Optimate
Profile Joined August 2020
247 Posts
June 08 2021 16:27 GMT
#11
Hey Koget thanks for the expert opinion. How come some players argue that ZvT takes a similar high skill as TvZ does? I think it was TT1 that I saw making a case that Z is just as hard as T. I wonder if any Z mains can attest to that.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10141 Posts
June 08 2021 17:54 GMT
#12
On June 09 2021 01:27 Optimate wrote:
Hey Koget thanks for the expert opinion. How come some players argue that ZvT takes a similar high skill as TvZ does? I think it was TT1 that I saw making a case that Z is just as hard as T. I wonder if any Z mains can attest to that.

Zerg has macro challenges of needing to have a better understanding of how to adequately use larva and the lack of being able to really hotkey their entire army in the late game because zerglings basically shrink your hotkeys to nothing. You also need to get quite good at muta micro which is some of the hardest micro in the game to play 2/3 matchups properly (ZvZ and ZvT).

Past that though, I don't think Zerg is necessarily as hard as Terran. As Koget said, Terran is just very apm intensive of a race because of how much macro and micro you need simultaneously. When done well, I think Terran is the strongest race, which is why when you get geniuses that play Starcraft and are Terran, they rise to the cream of the crop (the bonjwas are notoriously Terran dominated).

I would say in terms of difficulty, it would go Terran > Zerg >> Protoss.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
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Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 18:10:37
June 08 2021 18:06 GMT
#13
IMO a lot of the issues such as vulnerability to cheese etc have more to do with one's chosen playstyle, rather than race.

If you play only/mostly reactive defensive middle of the road 'standard' strategies then you'll find that any matchup can feel like Artosis @ TvP.

That sort of playstyle usually means that you're supposed to be constantly scouting, reacting properly, and even then only barely holding the (properly executed) aggression. Where the aggression(or unusual greed) can come in multiple flavors every few minutes of the game and you need to know how to deal with all of it...while your own first timing may be planned ten minutes into the game or even later.
Naturally, there's a lot of room to fail - and you can play any race and any matchup like this and reap constant frustration.

And surely there's a lot of mechanical difficulty in any race's modern strategies. The number of people outside of korea who can play a modern progamer's mid game+ build as it is intended(if unpolished) rather than some bastardized version of it probably doesn't reach 5, for all races involved.
Virus(shield)08
Profile Joined June 2021
6 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 18:19:18
June 08 2021 18:14 GMT
#14
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-08 19:46:59
June 08 2021 19:14 GMT
#15
Terran is statistically the strongest race at most current maps at the highest current level (which makes Terran the strongest overall in the current sponsored match map pool). Artosis just isn't good enough to make it work. Polypoid is actually a slightly Terran favoured map, statistically, at the highest level. Shakuras Temple is statistically Terran favoured in PvT.

There is a Protoss favoured map, Ascension, on which Protoss has a good winrate against both Terran and Zerg, and there are some maps on which Zerg is even in ZvT and favoured in ZvP, and some on which Zerg is even in ZvP and favoured in ZvT, but overall, most of the current maps are good for Terran.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
Hawk2
Profile Joined August 2010
United States229 Posts
June 08 2021 22:14 GMT
#16
SC does not have a strongest race and there never will be a strongest race. The races in SC are unique and have unique strengths and weaknesses. Games of Starcraft are played on maps, which vary, and favor one race's strengths over another. Maps that favor T, Z, or P can easily be created.

Map design which favors each specific race is well understood (at least in the Korean scene). For example, if we wanted P to have the highest winrate, then we would play on island maps. For Zerg, we would reduce the mineral patch count on bases and make the map closed. For Terran, we would increase the mineral patch count on bases and add cliffs.

SC balance doesn't exist, there is only map balance. And so, the obvious questions that follows is, 'Why has Terran had the highest historical winrate?'. There are two decent answers.

1) Terran players have consistently outperformed map-makers and tournament organizer's expectations over two decades of map design and play.

2) Tournament organizers favor Terran maps as a hedge against ZvZ and PvP finals, which lead to lower viewership.

Personally, I lean towards the latter.
MrHoon *
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
10183 Posts
June 09 2021 01:03 GMT
#17
iirc flash first started as a random player and moved onto terran when he realized he had more success with terran than the other races
dats racist
TaardadAiel
Profile Joined May 2017
Bulgaria750 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-09 10:19:37
June 09 2021 10:18 GMT
#18
Terran is high-risk, high-reward. As in you have way too many ways to screw up only on fundamentals, as koget pointed out - bad building placement, idle workers, missing macro cycles, moving your fragile MnM group to the wrong spot vs muta/ling or ling/lurker, sieging/unsieging at the wrong time vs a roaming protoss army, etc. But when execution reaches a high enough level, it's insanely strong because of all the cost-effective abilities Terran units have.

Plus, I'd argue Terran has one thing the two other races don't - almost unstoppable access to information in the form of scan. You can drain scanner energy by forcing scans, true, and limit Terran ability to scan around, but there is no other way to stop it. Observers are nice and invisible, but they can be somewhat easily killed and they cost precious gas and Robo queue time. Zerg can scout with units other than ovies, plus they can burrow them around the map, but that requires a dedicated upgrade that's not used too often for other stuff and is pretty apm intensive.

So when you're a friggin genius like Flash and you have access to info, you just get even stronger.
WriterReV hwaiting!
kogeT
Profile Joined September 2013
Poland2037 Posts
June 09 2021 12:02 GMT
#19
I don't think terran is high-risk, high-reward. That is zerg with all the backstabs, mindgames and balance between going macro / aggro to close the game. Terran is more like constant optimization and handling mechanical difficulties. Protoss is focus on micro (due to units being so strong) and avoiding risks.
https://www.twitch.tv/kogetbw
Dante08
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Singapore4126 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-06-09 14:20:26
June 09 2021 14:18 GMT
#20
Terran is the hardest because of TvZ SK Terran. Anyone who plays SK terran at C level and above know how ridiculously demanding it is.

There is a reason why there are so few top level foreign terrans, it's simply because their mechanics aren't good enough.
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