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I say "my" because I know it's not really new and that I didn't really invent it. But I came up with it on my own and started using it recently with good results. Granted the protoss players in my example reps are not the best but they are good enough to give people an idea of how the build works. I don't claim to be a great player or anything but I'm decent enough, with a pretty good knowledge of brood war. Here's the basics of it.
Its for TvP by the way
[Opening Build]
You open 9 depot, 10 rax, then start gas with your 12 scv(after 13th is started). This will keep you from getting too much gas unnessarily. You pump marines non stop from your 1 rax while getting a fact and a 3rd depot.
After starting your tank get an academy. Continue to pump marines/tanks from your rax and 1 fact.
Add a 4th depot and start siege and stim after your second tank is about half way done. You should also make 2 medics right when acad is done and start comstat as well.
Save your comstat up, don't use it to scout or anything just yet. After 2 medics resume marines. When your third tank comes out send out an scv or 2(on maps with alternative routes that allow counters) to scout.
The third tank will come right about when siege is finished and you should have 11 or so marines, 2 medics, and 3 tanks with siege. Move out while you start your cc on the high ground.
[Play vs protoss opening builds]
Now let's get into tactics/strategy/why I like this build.
A good part about this build is, it allows you to fake fd easily with 6 marines and a tank. This allows for a strong element of suprise. The first scenarios I describe will assume you scouted the P.
If he is going 2 gate range or really any variation of 2 gate/expo/pressure/ or whatever you're going to want to move out towards his nat and engage whatever army he has carefully. This means sending out 1 -2 scvs to scout. If microed properly you should be cost effective even against 2 gate ranged goon constant pump. If he has gone 2 gate goon into quick expo(like after 4 goons or so) you should even be able to end the game right away.
If he has gone reaver/proxy robo(basically you dont see him pressuring with goons or you see low goon count/no nexus. Or if you just suspect it, then wait a little bit for what would normally be the dt timing(should come around your 3rd tank anyways I believe) to make sure he is not going dt then scan his main. If hes going reaver just expand to your nat and play defensively with spread m n m and tank.
If he has gone dt or you suspect dt move out to pressure as normal with your scanner hot keyed of course and prepare to aggresive push to his main nexus with well microed mnn and well timed scans to ensure his dts cant run out of the scans.
If he has gone 3 gate youre basically just aiming to kill as many goons and or zs as possible while you take a faster nat expansion.
[Follow up after the initial rush]
The vast majority of the time your follow up plan is going to be to play defensively with 2 fact tank after your initial push of mnm/tank has died. While doing this add facts whenever possible while pumping. After 4-5 tanks to defend begin pumping vults while adding facts for a total of 6...if he has teched youll want an engineering bay after your 3rd fact. If your mnm are still alive use excess scans to pop obs.
You're basically preparing another timing push while harassing with vults/laying forward mines for map control. Feel free to use your scans to scout, vs a double expo you're going to aggresively but solidly push towards his choke, set up a strong position there, then move a few units to his 2nd expo. If he is just macroing off 2 base, play defensively while starting double armories and another cc at a nearby expo location.
[Pros/Cons]
Pros:
-This build is very versitle and safe vs any build protoss can throw at you provided you don't fuck up
-Can win you the game quickly
-Allows for excellent scouting throughout most of the game
-With good micro the build will frequently result in a cost effective trade off with p putting you in good position for midgame.
-Strong element of suprise if hidden skillfully.
Cons:
-Greatly delayed CC.
-Leaves you open to losing if outmicroed and therefore requires strong micro and multitask to pull off.
-Weak to a defensive 2 gate goon/range(above ramp) into reaver timing counter attack...but honestly never had this happen yet, so it may not even be that weak
-Requires careful attention to units(especially against dt), basically you're walking on a wire. Basically this build should only be used by expierenced players.
There is a lot more to it than this but this should give you a good idea of the ins and outs of the build. Hope you find it usefull or at least entertaining
[Example Replays]
[Some example replays]
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32460
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32459
http://www.battlereports.com/viewreplays.php?replaynum=32458
Note: I'm really rusty, and these examples are not of polished versions of this build. Basically its possible to play this build much better than the examples I provided But hey youll get the idea. Oh, and because I want to be cool like lastshadow, please call this build the "Forever Rush", Thanks (kidding).
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your echoofrain? we used to pvp alot <---NeO)ReSpOnSe or ReSpOnSe[x.1] do you remember me maybe?:-D
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Of course dude
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I like the build, my mnm micro is too weak though.
Also, let's say on a flat wide entrance map like.. Longinus, Tau, etc...
How do you handle a hungry 2 gate, 15nd gate fast rush.
You know with such late siege and only few marines, you have your wang stuck in duck shit so....
Howd you shimmy out of a sticky icky spot?
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Um the siege isnt that late actually, i mean if you adapt to a hardcore goon rush that is If you see him with really early 2 gate then feel free to just get siege after your first tank. Youll have 7 marines by the time he has 2 goons at your front which is enough to defend with a couple scvs until your siege is done. But ya I've really just been using this on maps like python and other ramped maps. If they go hardcore probe cutting rush where they trade goons for marine kills you might have to just cc and abandon the timing push. But your cc should be significantly ahead of ps nexus. If he doesnt do this then he'll be scared off by a fast siege and probably expect you to cc afterward. This will potentially leave him wide open if he double expands or allow you to cost effectively engage his goons if he simply expands. Also you can wall in on longinus. Semi wall/Bunker+ repair stall is another option.
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your going to run out of scans if hes DTing... if he even sees 1 medic he will just send 1 dt at a time or just attack run to waste your scan.
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I believe that is why you try to get in his face and set up.
Ebay before CC in any form of aggresive builds anyways.
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Interesting...I will check out the build. It could be nice to use now and then in games to throw your opponent off.
Although I'm a bit worried about the DT part as well as it seems alot of tosses use them on ICCUP...
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If hes dting you can overrun him before he gets enough dts out to run out of your scans a lot of the time. With smooth micro you can get up his ramp pretty quick and youll have at least 4 scans to get up ramp/fight off dts while you take out his gates. Ya, also making ebay first before cc and setting up a contain at his nat is another option. 3 gate goon/speedzeal/dt would rape this build probably, but how often do people do this?
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you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i came up with it on my own" pfffft, the build hasnt even been done at ALL in any major game i've seen , prolly 1/10000 times its been done, so it pretty much IS new and popular
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On July 27 2007 09:32 Revolt wrote:
you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i made this up @ my own time" pfffft
jeez, the op already said he didn't invent the concept. he's fully aware it's nothing ground breaking or 100% new.
he probably meant he got the timings, unit ratios/combinations, and build order down by trial and error, and his own bw knowledge.
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On July 27 2007 09:35 dementus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2007 09:32 Revolt wrote:
you sh*****g me right? NaDa use the mnm/tank build @ the invitational, "i made this up @ my own time" pfffft jeez, the op already said he didn't invent the concept. he's fully aware it's nothing ground breaking or 100% new. he probably meant he got the timings, unit ratios/combinations, and build order down by trial and error, and his own bw knowledge.
Yep, and I'm sure nada didnt do it the exact same way Although I don't remember those games at all, so maybe he did. Either way, revolt try reading the first line of my post--
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Can you really cause any damage to a good 2gater who made constant goons?
You say "with good micro" but tbh I think the micro is really in the other players hands with goons vs m&m. Then again this rush might come sooner than i think
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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On July 27 2007 09:46 ShabZzoY! wrote:
Can you really cause any damage to a good 2gater who made constant goons?
You say "with good micro" but tbh I think the micro is really in the other players hands with goons vs m&m. Then again this rush might come sooner than i think
It comes at slightly past 6 minutes.
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Oh and one more thing I wanted to mention. When you're in the preparing timing push phase, getting a total of 4 facts, scan his gates for a gate count. If he is preparing against a timing push then feel free to just expand again and add 2 armories + starport instead. And I did a test to see how many goons p could possibly have by 6:15, without sending a scouting probe at all, and with cutting the necessary probes to constantly be building goons from both gates when getting core at 14 and a second gate at 15 and its 11. This would obviously hold easily vs 11 marines 2 medics and 3 tanks with seige...but Ts expo will be much faster. And T can still get a good number of goon kills.
*Btw theres a banner ad for www.sementanks.com on teamliquid.net lmao. Yes they really do sell tanks for shipping semen...
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Interesting, will use it.
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I was also thinking this would be interesting to try vs T as well but with some scvs pulled to absorb tank fire. That's just theorycraft though. Haven't tested the practicality at all.
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I doubt it would work against T as vultures are simply too cost effective against marines.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Rines seem sloppy vs sieged tanks and more and more players open up with vults (this is almost mandatory on Geometry), so I don't really think it will have good TvT usage. But the TvP part is awesome. Much better than the "pressure" guide.
Btw, thx on explaining the adaptation/timing stuff of this build. This shit has been incredibly hard to counter for me in the past, now I think I will understand the build/defend better. The only drawback I see is that if toss gets a reaver or DT opening with a faster nexus and defends successfully (don't see how he can beat this with pure goons into fast nexus), he gains the upper hand. But overall it is indeed very strong.
Also, did you consider moving out earlier? You don't really need stim or siege when you're leaving your base (just don't be sloppy and bring an SCV a tank to repair if toss tries to slow the push, in case of medarine it's not a good idea unlike normal FD, so you will be ahead unless you screw micro), so it's ok if it finishes when you approach toss' base.
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this is a nice build, I use it (at least a similar one) and it have give me some gg's...
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thanks for the guide , good alternative to tornado terran that i usually find myself doing with tvp... hows it work with zerg for you, or would a straight up skterran work better?
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Eh..it would not be recommended vs zerg at all Although by luck it could work vs 2 hatch fast lurker...but still not recommended.
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On July 27 2007 11:06 BluzMan wrote:
Rines seem sloppy vs sieged tanks and more and more players open up with vults (this is almost mandatory on Geometry), so I don't really think it will have good TvT usage. But the TvP part is awesome. Much better than the "pressure" guide.
Btw, thx on explaining the adaptation/timing stuff of this build. This shit has been incredibly hard to counter for me in the past, now I think I will understand the build/defend better. The only drawback I see is that if toss gets a reaver or DT opening with a faster nexus and defends successfully (don't see how he can beat this with pure goons into fast nexus), he gains the upper hand. But overall it is indeed very strong.
Also, did you consider moving out earlier? You don't really need stim or siege when you're leaving your base (just don't be sloppy and bring an SCV a tank to repair if toss tries to slow the push, in case of medarine it's not a good idea unlike normal FD, so you will be ahead unless you screw micro), so it's ok if it finishes when you approach toss' base.
Ya you can move out earlier if you see a weakness, like if they went nexus first or something. But normally if you moved out earlier it would mean you would have no stim or siege...which makes it a lot easier for the P to micro against your forces. Besides if you're not gonna wait for siege and stim theres more effecient options than this build Honestly it is not possible for protoss to tech and get a faster expansion than you(and keep the expansion alive that is).
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On July 27 2007 10:13 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:And I did a test to see how many goons p could possibly have by 6:15, without sending a scouting probe at all, and with cutting the necessary probes to constantly be building goons from both gates when getting core at 14 and a second gate at 15 and its 11. This would obviously hold easily vs 11 marines 2 medics and 3 tanks with seige...but Ts expo will be much faster. And T can still get a good number of goon kills.
This is true, but if you lose too much, the counter reaver drop (come on, with that many goons it has to come right?) is gonna hurttttttt. I am so gonna use this build a bunch now to cheese the crap outta protoss.
I play SC to kill Protoss. That is my joy and love now. -_-; and I'm P user ~~
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Haha I'm a oldschool P user too. I also enjoy playing z and t vs p a lot more than other match ups for some reason. Ya its totally winable by p with a counter but you can always come out on top as T with good crisis micro. As T I'd much rather be defending/macroing to win than being forced to push out to win.
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On July 27 2007 11:55 Aux1 wrote:
dt drop owns this
Seriously can I get a temp ban for this guy? How does dt drop own this? To me it seems dt drop would be THE WORST POSSIBLE RESPONSE. Are you fucking joking me? Not only would you not survive the initial push if T played agressively. But how do you propose to beat 12 marines 2 medics and 4 tanks with a shuttle full of dts when T has at least 3 scans/maybe 4? If T played defensively he would see the shuttle flying in, move marines over...stim run past shuttle a bit..target it..kill it. Scan, mop up dts. GG.
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is awesome32274 Posts
I use marine heavy builds on Peaks a lot. Its very strong vs 14 nexus and 1 gate. You need to keep your scv alive in his base a lot to see if hes teching. If he is you should save scans as to be safe from dts until you put turrets on your ramp/expo.
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noob question: Do we have to cut scvs at any time during this build?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Actually, I think DT's are quite an effective solution even if scanned. Engage with both goons and DT, goons take the first hits and you have a second or two to move DT in position, then the terran reacts and scans. DT's are very effective against small medarine forces scanned or not due to 1-hit kills that totally negate medics. So just a frontal goon/DT attack by toss seems pretty viable.
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Anyways, I've played against T users who went bio/tank before and it IS a pain in the ass. But it does leave the terran very vulnerable goons/storm combos. Also, like bluzman mentioned, the Terran would have to be on constant alert of DT attacks. The build leaves a huge hole for DT attacks without vulture/mine support imo. Isn't it also harder to harass with just mnm/tank?
Edit: didn't read properly
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On July 27 2007 12:03 fusionsdf wrote:
noob question: Do we have to cut scvs at any time during this build?
Just 1 for a faster fact timing while continuing to pump rines
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Reflex, storm isnt a factor because youre not gonna have it within 7 minutes Trust me guys dt is something I've tested extensively against. If you manage your scan energy properly youll do great vs dt.
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whoever said you will have 4 scans by the time your going up to his ramp/base, is utterly wrong... you will have 2 scans max if that, but the OP said that you would scan his base to see what hes going, so theres -1 scan. o_O
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dt drop only need one boom no scanner more dts come woops no scan? oh no my push is dead? oh no i just lost?
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Aux wanna play me right now dt drop vs this build?
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Actually I'd be happy to test dts vs this build against anyone.
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On July 27 2007 12:32 Metal[x] wrote:
whoever said you will have 4 scans by the time your going up to his ramp/base, is utterly wrong... you will have 2 scans max if that, but the OP said that you would scan his base to see what hes going, so theres -1 scan. o_O
No you don't scan his base until you are sure hes not going dt
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Is it a good idea to wall with this strat? After seeing you mass produce marines it might cause the protoss to think that you are going for an mnm+scv rush and force them to make a couple cannons and zealots.
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What do you think about sending 12 scvs along with your push instead of making the CC if you think the opponent is low on goons? Mass scvs can really absorb some shots and can block up escape paths, as well as repair tanks and build bunkers/supply depots.
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On July 27 2007 12:37 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:
Actually I'd be happy to test dts vs this build against anyone.
Are you on right now?
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On July 27 2007 07:53 TheFoReveRwaR wrote:-Weak to a defensive 2 gate goon/range(above ramp) into reaver timing counter attack...but honestly never had this happen yet
Now you've told them lol :D!
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On July 27 2007 14:45 Myrmidon wrote:
What do you think about sending 12 scvs along with your push instead of making the CC if you think the opponent is low on goons? Mass scvs can really absorb some shots and can block up escape paths, as well as repair tanks and build bunkers/supply depots.
Sound like great idea actually..specially vs nexus builds without cannons. You wouldnt even need 12...6 should be plenty
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bitch i own u son! 2-0 with reps! :D!
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On July 27 2007 12:33 Aux1 wrote:
dt drop only need one boom no scanner more dts come woops no scan? oh no my push is dead? oh no i just lost?
Mmmmm cuz ur gonna have the gas for dt + robo by the time his rush is knocking on your door? Fuck even if you are successful with ur fag drop wouldn't ur main get romped on?
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On July 27 2007 16:11 nemY wrote:
bitch i own u son! 2-0 with reps! :D!
Sup nemy..you are so leet, quick fly to korea;)
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didnt FBH try something like this?
I seem to recall it failing miserably.
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Youll have to be more specific..
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Out of curiosity, how would a good P counter this? I've lost to these types of builds before, and I was always frustrated because even if I'd see it coming, I could never get to storm quickly enough, and I'm not quick enough at focus firing the medics with my goons.
Edit: I realized I missed the counter under "Cons." I've still lost doing that, though. I probably just suck. That and I never go reaver anymore seeing as the AI is so bad and I got sick and tired of never getting any kills since scarabs like to hug mineral stacks.
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Try 2 gate goon range constant pump into 3 gate goon --> expo --> speed zeal
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Or 4gate it if u suck at micro like me, go to sleep zak
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On July 27 2007 14:45 Myrmidon wrote:
What do you think about sending 12 scvs along with your push instead of making the CC if you think the opponent is low on goons? Mass scvs can really absorb some shots and can block up escape paths, as well as repair tanks and build bunkers/supply depots.
I think theres a build similiar to that. I saw it like 3 times Flash, Hwasin and i think boxer. Only hwasin lost with it. Its a build to counter no gate nexus called something like scan rush. Where you scan toss main and use min trick to slide scvs with marine medic behind. And Hwasin lost with it because bisu squeezed his probe through hwasin's wall on loki and saw the 2 rax and went fast cannons.
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have you considered getting 1 less tank for range upgrade? if you're building that many marines and getting stim it might be worth it. it helps a lot vs reaver and dt though i guess an extra tank probably helps more vs reaver. it might also be worth it if they spot it and build zealots.
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On July 27 2007 17:48 Dahlia... wrote:
against stork
Keyword being Stork here, guys.
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On July 27 2007 22:56 Zanno wrote:
have you considered getting 1 less tank for range upgrade? if you're building that many marines and getting stim it might be worth it. it helps a lot vs reaver and dt though i guess an extra tank probably helps more vs reaver. it might also be worth it if they spot it and build zealots.
With 3 seige tanks range for marines isnt important. Protoss's priority will be sniping the tanks so they will have to move in close enough to target the tanks anyways. Besides this build only uses mnm for the opening, so range would sort of be a waste.
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Seems like solid build on a ladder where's theres more randomness. You can pick a lot of rines off if ur at the t's choke and simply run in pick one off back off..course I realize you said "if properly microed" but if you have the ability to micro correctly in that situation and still macro/get your expo up, your probably better off with a standard opening that gives you a solid mid/late game..
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range might actually be important...goons can jsut snipe rines off as they are walking back and ur left with like 3-4 rines, which wont be that much of a help.
its like right teetering on the edge of victory or loss, cause toss tech will kill this build easy, but you have the advantage of three tanks and anti air stuff (and vs less goons).
Have u compared this with the results of a 2fac rush?
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Just no(to the getting range part, it completely fucks the timing..and if you wait long enough for both stim and range you will lose your window of opportunity to do damage) Toss tech will kill this build easy? Thats exactly what this build is best against. And yes it is possible to snipe rines but not nearly as easy as you think. If correctly done you will lead with your 3 tanks first with marines even or slightly behind +2 scvs or so. As soon as tanks get vision of a goon you siege, if they move to target a tank you stim and move scvs to repair. If they run then you have only lost time. Also keep in mind frequently toss will fuck up against this and not notice you sieging immediately and lose a goon or so. Or they will move in at first to snipe and get caught retreating and lose a goon that way. Since you are expanding and they are most likely scared(and therefore not expanding), it isn't that big of a deal if they simply run. If the goons simply try to kill the tank you are leading with they WILL take more goon loses than you will take resource wise. If they have already expanded by the time you are moving out you shouldn't even need to siege to own their army. That being said the proper reaction for toss is to stall the terran by making him seige and un siege as many times as possible while safely running away unscatched. Then when protoss has massed enough, they slaughter your standing first pressure group. However in this situation you should have placed your cc significantly ahead of theres and also have enough reenforcements produced to stop their counter attack. How this all plays out of course depends on your relative skill levels
The purpose of this build is than that of a 2 fact rush and simular to a 2 fact fake rush into cc but with more versitility(and doesn't require an ebay). Its designed to be safe vs all tech openings(and it is, without the need for an ebay at all or until after you've started your cc vs dt) while giving you good scouting/a reasonably fast expo and apply early pressure to delay the protoss nexus. So, because of that I haven't compared it to a 2 fact build. Also I'm a fan of anything that throws your opponent off of his usual game rythm.
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EPT
