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United States42250 Posts
I've been using this a lot lately and think I have a pretty good understanding of it so I figured I would write it up.
Build is
8p near ramp
10g
12g scout (except on 2 player maps)
13z
15p
17z
19z
21a
23c
24p
26d
28d
25 range (-6 supply of zealots)
26d
28d
31p
It's not my build, I stole it shamelessly from Bonyth and, as bw has been out for two decades, I'd assume he probably got it from somewhere. But it has been crushing stronger players than me at high A, it's ridiculously easy to execute and if the opponent doesn't react perfectly then they have a dozen ways they can throw the game instantly.
To execute it you send the first 3 zealots in a group to the other player's base and, if they've done a 1 gate opener, they will generally have at most 1 zealot and 1 dragoon.
If they offer to trade hits with you you can take the fight, dragoons do 50% vs zealot armour and zealots have higher dps anyway so 3 zealots > 1 zealot 1 dragoon. As you take the ramp try to position so all 3 can attack at once. If you fight them try to stutter your zealots further past his between attacks to make it harder for them to micro back.
If they're good they'll use the zealot to draw aggro but run it away. The goon will dance too obviously. Go to the mineral line and kill probes. The ones mining gas are the easiest ones to get so prioritize those if you can. Probe kills are preferred to killing the zealot if you have the option, the zealot doesn't help him much and may actually hurt him.
The goal of the zealots is twofold, scouting info and getting value. You'll get a much later scout than is usually possible in PvP, you should see the 3rd pylon (normally rules out proxy), goon range upgrade, and a 2nd goon finishing. That let's you rule out most tech cheeses. You may also see a 2nd gate.
You may also kill a zealot, force a shield battery, and kill probes. Your investment is about 250 mins (3 zealots lost but your scout probe lived) so if you kill 2 probes and force some drills it's basically fine.
You'll lose the zealots eventually but that's all part of the plan, you actually need to lose them to free up the supply you need to build dragoons which gets us to the next part of the build.
The moment your gas finishes you want 3 probes on it, you cannot afford delays here. Also make sure you cut the probe for the 21 gas, not 22 gas, you make it right after starting the 3rd zealot. As your zealots reach the opponent's ramp you should be able to start 2 dragoons. Shortly after that you should be able to get dragoon range and then, assuming you've successfully lost all 3 zealots, you can make another 2 dragoons. Making these on time is incredibly important because it opens up timing windows for the opponent to make mistakes. If your dragoons are late then the build stops working.
There are two key timing windows to be exploited here.
1. You can have 4 rangeless dragoons at your natural around the time that your opponent on 1 gate can have 1 zealot and 3 dragoons at your nat. This will happen most games, after cleaning up the 3 zealots most opponents will try to establish a soft contain with dragoons. If they do this you can simply micro your 4 dragoons onto their 3 and do stutter focus fire micro to inflict maximum damage as they try to retreat while not allowing the zealot to do any damage. Their first zealot still being alive can actually hurt them here, it is slower and will always die eventually if they cross the map but it can give them excess confidence which leads to dead goons and it can block the retreat of faster goons letting you do more damage. Your opponent will probably make this mistake and you can exploit it. Any dragoon trades you can take early on will compound your 2 gate advantage as you'd much rather have 5 vs 4 than 6 vs 5.
2. You can have 6 range dragoons at his natural around the time the opponent 5 range dragoons and a zealot on 1 gate. As before, this gives you a window to stutter in and focus down their dragoons while dodging the zealot. Additionally if they have placed a nex the nex will generally act to choke their dragoons, allow you to take a concave arc around the base of the ramp, and make any defence impossible.
After making 6 dragoons you can cut a dragoon for a zealot (you're tight on gas) and follow it up with a robo at the top of your ramp which, if you block the ramp, will be in time for dt and facilitate a transition into either a 2 gate + robo reaver bust or a no shuttle reaver expand.
It is very easy for the opponent to fall far behind from just the first 3 zealots. If the opponent made the safety zealot on 14 then they've already cut a probe compared to you to get their 16 pylon. If they take too much damage on their first zealot/dragoon they can easily lose one or both of them as their damage output is lower than your 3 zealots. If they panic and make a battery then they hurt themselves further as you don't have much interest in killing their fighting units, you're after probes, the battery is wasted money. It's not unusual to end up 6+ probes ahead from the zealots alone, you're up 1 from their supply block, your dragoons will generally get their scout probe while they're dealing with the zealots while your scout probe (if you sent one) got home alive because the zealots took over scouting, they will generally miss probe production while desperately trying not to die to your 3 zealots, they will often cut probes to rush out an extra gateway thinking you plan a committed zealot rush, and you can almost always kill a probe or two.
Once they've defended the zealots they will want to apply pressure, verify that you've not expanded, establish a loose contain, and generally get some value out of their faster goon range. As discussed above this encourages them to run head first with 3 dragoons into your 4 dragoon timing.
They may also want to continue to produce goons from 1 gate, add a robo around 28, then take a nexus when their mins hit 400. They can't hold that nexus due to the 6 range dragoons at their natural timing. Unless they added a quick second gate you will always have the 6 range dragoon timing and anything but being at the top of their ramp just loses them the game.
If they take minimal damage from the 3 zealots, don't fall into any of the traps, and build a reaver before leaving their base then they can be slightly ahead due to their earlier gas providing an edge in dragoon reaver fights. That's why I wouldn't advocate using this build vs Bisu if you ever happen to play him PvP. Also cross positions on some of the bigger maps makes the 6 range dragoon vs 5 at his nat timing a little shaky. But assuming that you're playing 2200 MMR and below this build just makes the matchup easy. The game starts and armed with the information above you just wait to see which of the pitfalls your opponent walks into. They lose the game for you, all you have to do is make 3 zealots, 2 dragoons, range, then 4 more dragoons.
It also freewins vs proxy 99 which makes it nice as a ladder build and it's pretty good vs 12 nex if you scout it early enough.
Replays and VODs available if anyone needs them. I'm not at my computer right now but comment if you want them and I'll deliver. You can also watch Bonyth's stream or get his rep packs, he uses it a lot, and far better than I do. I vaguely recall him using this over and over in the last BSL so I'd recommend those VODs as an example of this build working vs S rank Protoss.
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Thanks, been getting destroyed in PvP lately. Will definitely try this out.
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To be honest this opening is being played since 5-7 years in around 25% of pvp games on ladder by different players. There is no threat of harrass on maps with normal ramp, if someone knows how to play safe given the time of scouting of his opponents main. Given gateway scout, you have to start with zealot right away when you don't scout on 1st spot. Then you follow up with another zealot during cyber core construction if you dont find opponent on 2nd spot. After that you gonna see last position ramp and zealots poping out. This is a time when you have cyber ready, so you build 3rd zealot instead of goon, because it builds faster and will be on time with another 2 to defend ramp. To do any damage, attacking player would need to have much better micro and try to do something with probe defusing zealots on ramp (which you didn't mention and it is used very often by Bonyth for example). So generally you defend zealots and have 1 gate cyber. But important thing is you didn't have to cut any probes. So either way you can go for 3 gateway robo, or just 1 gate fast robo and try to play with faster reaver. I think also that Bonyth uses it less often now.
Edit: Very important thing is also to not lose scouting probe, because you have to slide into base when 3 zealots move out. Just to deny any attempt of fast dt tech. Only then you can go for 3 gate first before robo.
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United States42250 Posts
On January 01 2021 03:10 radley wrote:
To be honest this opening is being played since 5-7 years in around 25% of pvp games on ladder by different players. There is no threat of harrass on maps with normal ramp, if someone knows how to play safe given the time of scouting of his opponents main. Given gateway scout, you have to start with zealot right away when you don't scout on 1st spot. Then you follow up with another zealot during cyber core construction if you dont find opponent on 2nd spot. After that you gonna see last position ramp and zealots poping out. This is a time when you have cyber ready, so you build 3rd zealot instead of goon, because it builds faster and will be on time with another 2 to defend ramp. To do any damage, attacking player would need to have much better micro and try to do something with probe defusing zealots on ramp (which you didn't mention and it is used very often by Bonyth for example). So generally you defend zealots and have 1 gate cyber. But important thing is you didn't have to cut any probes. So either way you can go for 3 gateway robo, or just 1 gate fast robo and try to play with faster reaver. I think also that Bonyth uses it less often now.
At what MMR do people go 2 zealot before goon? I don’t think I’ve seen that. What you’re describing isn’t at all my experience. I must have done this build dozens of times in the last few weeks and what you’re saying just isn’t what happens.
I don’t think I’m understanding properly. Can you show me in game?
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The people who know how to play safe and dont coinflip. You can cancel 2nd zealot when you scout on 2nd position and see 1 gate tech. And having 2 zealots is not the best but its also not the end of world if you scout on last position (which already puts you in worse situation).
I think you are relating to fact, that most players going tech starts with cyber core, then build 1st zealot. I generally find it bad approach, it's coinflipping for me. You can still defend against 2 gate zealots with that though, but you have to build 2nd pylon near ramp and have to defend with battery, which sucks for me, because you cannot move out with battery, but can with zealots.
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United States42250 Posts
If they get 2 zealots then they still have the issue of you breaking their ramp because 3 zealots > 2 zealots and a goon and they’re even further behind vs the 4 goon timing. But this is just theory because nobody does zealot zealot goon.
Edit: I just don’t think I understand what you’re talking about here. You say that I’m assuming robo before zealot but that isn’t a build people do at A/S. The standard robo opening is (roughly) 10g, 11a, 13c, 14z, 16p, 17d, 20 range, 20d, 23p, 23d, 26 robo. That’s what this works well against. Nobody has started a robo before the 3 zealots are there.
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You have 3 zealots on time from 1 gateway, provided u didnt cut production. You make 3rd when you see 3 zealots leaving base. Before they come to your ramp, you gonna have 3rd zealot to put in the middle of 2 already being on ramp. Then you start dragoon production. The only threat is opponents probe in your base. But i think it will enter it only when scouted on 1st position on 4 players map, because u block ramp with 1st zealot. Provided its not Yeti's kind player who do pylon scout.
Sorry, I meant zealot before core of course, not robo. I'll fix that.
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IMO it is the probe scout that makes most of the threat there.
Normally the 3 zealots aren't terribly difficult to hold off, if you get a goon to fire some 3-4 shots on a zealot, then hold with your zealot on the ramp while getting a battery. This gets you time to get a 2nd goon out, decent chance you'll be able to focus down one of the three zealots(so no probe insta kills), and then you get to heal up on battery.
Now, if the probe is inside your base, perhaps it got a manner pylon off. Perhaps your goon was chasing it and it didn't let you do any kiting on the zealots on the map. Perhaps you chased it long enough to where the zealots got up the ramp.
If they got up the ramp, the battery isn't helping you nearly as much. If they see a battery they really shouldn't be trading hits on the zealot/goon(unless they're very exposed and it is 3 units hitting for 1 and they don't have a good direction to run to, either). They can just dive on probes, kill some 3 and force some drills and they're doing great.
If you're going for a zealot defense option, then the probe could mineralwalk through them to push one of the zealots out, and that can easily make the defense crumble right there.
Still, this build is kinda gambley if the opponent always gets a zealot before goon.
On a 4 player map, 1/3 of the time they won't get a scout in, meaning first goon gets to kite the zealots and do 60-80 damage for free; this can potentially snow ball into losing one of the three zealots very early, if it wasn't moved back for the fight on the ramp.
1/3 of the time it is cross spots, meaning 2nd goon will be out almost at the beginning of the fight, making for a much easier defense; and the goon generally can kill the probe and still get out on the map.
1/3 of the time they get close spots and the scout in, and that's the scenario where you sometimes can deal significant damage even to a 2500+ player.
What really really really shuts this build down is, when they get in, great probe control. Where probes surround/do damage/drill/run away when focused properly. But that is of course very hard to do consistently.
It also loses a lot of attraction if the opponent has the micro necessary to extract value from having range vs no range goons, on the counter.
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just curious how you handle a gas steal when they scout your 2gate? (and potentially their 3rd pylon at your nat to stop expo)
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United States42250 Posts
On January 01 2021 10:49 Soulforged wrote:
What really really really shuts this build down is, when they get in, great probe control. Where probes surround/do damage/drill/run away when focused properly. But that is of course very hard to do consistently.
It also loses a lot of attraction if the opponent has the micro necessary to extract value from having range vs no range goons, on the counter.
All good points, but most players in most games can't do that. The beauty of this build is that it takes C rank mechanics to execute and S rank mechanics to block. I don't disagree that if I tried this on Bisu though his 3 range dragoons would kill all 4 of my rangeless dragoons, probably without loss, and that killing any of his probes would be tough. I certainly wouldn't want to claim that this build can't be shut down, just that it's much harder to shut it down than it is to execute and that at most ranks you will be ahead from doing it.
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United States42250 Posts
On January 01 2021 11:35 blabber wrote:
just curious how you handle a gas steal when they scout your 2gate? (and potentially their 3rd pylon at your nat to stop expo) /
Best option if they get the gas steal and the pylon is to leave the game. A gas steal before 21 is pretty unusual vs a 2 gate though. If my gas was stolen I think I'd immediately cancel the 2nd and 3rd zealot and place a nex to avoid the risk of the situation you describe.
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You aren't wrong Kwark and that's also a reason why I do this build as well, at times. It is also a great build to do on an off day in general. If you feel like you wouldn't hold it off well at a given time, might as well do it yourself.
Small optimization you may want to do: cut probe at 12, rather than 21. This gets you a pylon faster(can do 12 gate 12 pylon 12 zealot -> resume probe production).
3 zealots will be done faster, and you get gas at a usual time(without another cut), so you only end up losing the few mining rounds that probe would do between 12 and 21.
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The C rank mechanics will do proper probe glitch on very hard luck. Plus with good latency and micro skills you can one shot it with 3 zealots and hold formation on ramp. Manner pylon doesn't work, because it will ruin goon timing, but if attacker puts them right before zealots attack, you just ignore them and deal with it after you are safe. There was a time that every better main protoss player in Poland used that 3 zeals push build after Bonyth in most of games. That time was overlapping with about a year period that I switched totally to play PvP instead of TvP and trained a lot with them. It was relatively easy to defend those 3 zealots against them, cause only Bonyth had been glitching probe properly in most games. Others usually did just go back with zeals and follow up.
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One shotting the probe with 3 zealots is not very reliable if they're already fighting on the ramp when the drill comes in.
And there are other difficulties that come with opening 2nd zealot blindly. It is certainly safer way to hold it/play, but some options will be denied to you. All the builds that cut any goon production at all become much riskier, etc.
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I used this build sometimes as well. One other factor to consider in online games is latency; as a NA player, often matched up against Korean players, games ended up as TR16 at best and often TR12 or sometimes worse. The zealot/probe defense from 1 gate is much more difficult in this environment.
One variation I did sometimes on 4 player maps is to also scout on 12, but scout cross-position. This alerts you to center 9/9 gates quickly, and also lets you know it is a cross position game quickly enough to skip the gas and do a fast expand build instead. You build the Nexus just after your 3 zealots move out and your opponent can't stop this with a pylon block because your zealots are so close.
The followup depends on the situation, but usually involves getting a forge to defend against ranged goon micro and the same applies from above: the opponent has to be very crisp in his micro in both defending the initial 3 zealots, and also while microing the counter. I found that I preferred this variant of 2 gate in cross spawns (though it can also be done in adjacent positions if your gas gets stolen.)
BTW, it's important to know 1 zeal blocks on various ramps because it's best not to reveal 2 gate until the latest possible moment. On the flip side, you'd be surprised how many people don't know 1 zeal blocks on certain ramps even up to A level.
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I would also add that if the 2 gate player gets 1st or 2nd scout and sees that opponent is doing zealot->core->zealot->dragoon or core-zealot-zealot-zealot they can just make 21 pylon and go for 5 zealots which is where the many zealots before goons builds fall apart.
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tried the build and it is pretty legit; was able to reach 2k mmr with it. I think this and 2 gate cannon expand will be my go-to pvp builds from now on.
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Aeternum, thats why u keep scouting probe alive, as I mentioned. By the time u either have 2nd gateway up or robo building. In case of robo you need to add battery on ramp, but its fine, cause opponent will be dead anyway when reaver comes into play, because of super delayed tech.
This is one of the weakest points of this opening - you leave your base to be scouted for very long time, so your opponent may know exactly, what is your follow up.
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Strong vouch for this build. Saw Bonyth recommend it on discord, and it finally makes PVP playable for scrub-me (~1300ish).
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EPT
