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Basically how Flash "solved" the TvP matchup is recognizing the difficulty of the early and mid game for Terran and taking full advantage of mech -> 3/3 upgrades are OP (+15 damage for siege tanks) and strength of the mech ball.
So his game plan from a majority of games (and any good Terran), is to get to lategame as fast as possible with 3 bases, a high amount of factories, strong upgrades (+2/+1), and a big army. This is just the most solid plan in TvP.
Have you seen some of Flash's games on CB? He's nuts, sometimes getting 4 bases by 8 minutes on just 1 factory pumping out tanks. He does this on CB almost every single game. I think Flash also recognizes that one of his strengths is big army management, so he plays to his strengths on top of that.
The comments up top are really good, definitely pay attention to those, this is just my 2 cents
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I'll defer to the terrans on what's already been said, but also add that you should be aware that you should unsiege and push asap anytime p tries to attack into you and fails (I e. You have 4-5+ tanks left). Seems obvious but so many t's let me back into a game by not immediately punishing me for misjudging an attack. Also, don't forget to bring a couple scvs to add turrets/buildings to your push. A lot of newer terrans don't do this and it makes a pretty big difference sometimes
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@Chameleon
I bring scvs to build turrets, my biggest issue is that when I do timings, I really want to be FAST and get up into his nat. Actually all my pushes are like that, I don't want him to be able to set up the sweetest flanks imaginable, so I often just scan ahead and a-move, and then I get like just one control group sieged in time when they engage, and I get a bad engagement. I've lost so many games where I was way way far ahead because of mistakes like that. Very annoying.
To the other people posting in this thread, thanks a lot.
Ive had many a frustrating game vs protoss since I made this post, and I'm sure its not stopping any time soon. I've started to feel much more comfortable in builds, scouting for 3rd, and making reads on my opponent. I still have a lot to learn just to get a basic understanding, but at least it makes sense and I have a sense of direction. What I however am not comfortable with is 2gate builds, either inbase or proxy. Do I need to just take an SCV and scout around for it? For the proxy version, I guess I can scout cross map (on FS for instance) to scout them, but if they are in base or if I do a normal scouting pattern, it is just auto lose if I reach his base too late. Same goes for pool before hatch in TvZ. Really frustrating ways to lose.
I'm starting to learn that beating protoss requires such a long list of decisions that need to be made. I have had games where I catch my opponent completely off guard with 10-10 FD push, hard contain them on 1 base while taking my own third, then push @ 180 supply with upgrades and still lose the game even though I knew for a fact the protoss only recently took his third. There is no reason or logic inis matchup, superior play from terran is simply required to win. And that is on all accounts.
Again, thanks a lot for the replies. The grind continues.
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I think what might help is getting some personal help from a better player and you guys watch your replay together so they can point stuff out.
As for pool before hatch, I almost always go 1rax into cc (around 15 supply), and add a supply depot right after. I cut scvs for a bit so I can pump only marines until the second depot is done. You should be able to scout a pool build in time though, so all you do is make your cc in your base, grab like 3 scvs to clog the ramp and just hold off until you have enough marines.
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Japan11286 Posts
Just a little tip, when it's an inbase proxy then either you forgot about his probe in your base or he was really sneaky (discounting maphack.) To prevent this, always keep track of your opponent's scouting probe especially when it's near or inside your base. Also with a scouting scv inside his main, it's very easy to deduce stuff like this due to the lack of buildings (which are being built elsewhere.)
Pushing too fast is actually a reckless way to set yourself up for a sweet death-by-flank and the great thing about it for the protoss player is that you're doing all the positioning work for him. All he'll need to do is to sweep in when you're units are wedged deep enough.
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On June 03 2017 16:33 c3rberUs wrote:
Just a little tip, when it's an inbase proxy then either you forgot about his probe in your base or he was really sneaky (discounting maphack.) To prevent this, always keep track of your opponent's scouting probe especially when it's near or inside your base. Also with a scouting scv inside his main, it's very easy to deduce stuff like this due to the lack of buildings (which are being built elsewhere.)
Pushing too fast is actually a reckless way to set yourself up for a sweet death-by-flank and the great thing about it for the protoss player is that you're doing all the positioning work for him. All he'll need to do is to sweep in when you're units are wedged deep enough.
If you scout protoss and only see 1 pylon in main(provided your scv lived and he isnt retarded) at around the 16-17 food mark be prepared to check for proxy
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I can hold 2gate proxies and 9pools if I scout them. If I however scout enemy last and he scouts me first or second, I auto lose to it.
I have another question, however.
When I do a big lategame push, or hell even a timing push, and the protoss sits outside my base or meets me middl eof the map, must I then slowpush and leapfrog the entire way? I can't seem to push correctly and lose so many games because of it, at the same time, especially when trying to hit a timing, I feel as if I am on a clock, and I don't want to give him time to add gates / mass up units.
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On June 03 2017 09:18 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 02:50 TwiggyWan wrote:
But think about it differently for a second. Instead of killing him (if you can't manage it) what if you played for the map split?
You could for example use the 2/1 timing to get your 4th, not attack, and build tons of defensive structures.
What's nice about FS is that you can take the center base as a 4th this way, wall off one side of it, put some tanks inside, float some buildings over the wall, block enemy movement, and simply wait for him to suicide waves and waves of shit onto you.
Because most of your units wouldnt move, you'd have hand time to lay tons of mines in all your bases to prevent recalls, and scan bases to see eventual stargates. Show me a game between evenly matched opponents above true D+ where this works and I give you a medal... You'll die to 3 or more 200/200 Protoss armies from 30-40 gates... Or to 10 Arbiters (hallucination-)recalling or stasising, w/e... Or 12 carriers... And maybe you actually win one game or two in 10. Ernaine pointed out a lot of the obstacles that lie in the way of a TvP-victory on low to mid level. It feels like on that level, Protoss can consistently raise enough of the obstacles that Terran has to overcome, all of them, to win a game, while Terrans that train and try just as hard (or harder) cannot achieve that yet. They lose to one average move by Protoss after one, two, three or more good moves they made themselves... it always takes some more experience, games sense, control, multitasking, some more of everything to not have that one bad moment that preludes gg. That said: Even if you win 35-45% of your TvPs convincingly, and lose 35-45% deservedly to better Protoss players - you still rage about those 10-30% that just don't feel right, and this narrowed picture ruined my gaming sessions far too often...
I can't find VODs, but i remember Iris (i think?) doing that to lancerx on stream. Of course I know Iris is much better than lancerx, but it's still above D+.
Also, Last is currently playing a TvP on Camelot where he map splits until he spots the carrier transition.
I agree with the rest of what you said.
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On June 03 2017 21:27 krooked wrote:
I can hold 2gate proxies and 9pools if I scout them. If I however scout enemy last and he scouts me first or second, I auto lose to it.
I have another question, however.
When I do a big lategame push, or hell even a timing push, and the protoss sits outside my base or meets me middl eof the map, must I then slowpush and leapfrog the entire way? I can't seem to push correctly and lose so many games because of it, at the same time, especially when trying to hit a timing, I feel as if I am on a clock, and I don't want to give him time to add gates / mass up units.
You should always double scout in tvz if you don't find him on the first try, that way you can always stop a 9pool with a ramp block.
You don't have to necessarily scout P's main to not lose. It is enough to check the expansion timing shortly sfter your first tank is done to see if you have to play defensive. So it is probably better for you to scout the middle atm if you cannot hold proxy gates yet.
If Protoss has his whole army at your natural, a good option is to slip your vultures by and lay mines between your and his base to slow down his reinforcements and threaten a runby to his 3rd or natural. He shouldn't have much at home if his main army is at your nat.
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Thank you very much for the reply Cryoc. I was made aware of the level of play some of you guys are at, and I am very grateful to get advice from such high level players. I will definitely take it to heart and read it two or three times more.
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You might also get even better advice if you post a few replays. Given how relatively new you are, your problems could also be coming from something else entirely you're not aware of.
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On June 05 2017 05:54 Chameleon wrote:
You might also get even better advice if you post a few replays. Given how relatively new you are, your problems could also be coming from something else entirely you're not aware of.
That is definitely true, I would love for someone to take a look at my replays. Is it ok if I just post them ITT, or should I make an own thread for them ?
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@krooked
vs 2 gate you need to have perfect sim city and pull scvs asap to fight the zealots and also get a bunker up asap if you're not confident in microing. The key is to block the zeals with your scvs and microing your Marines through the rax supply gap and not losing any marines. Watch Flash's stream, he does this very well.
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On June 05 2017 07:04 krooked wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2017 05:54 Chameleon wrote:
You might also get even better advice if you post a few replays. Given how relatively new you are, your problems could also be coming from something else entirely you're not aware of. That is definitely true, I would love for someone to take a look at my replays. Is it ok if I just post them ITT, or should I make an own thread for them ?
During the height of the BW Strategy thread when it was heavily moderated (mostly by Chill I think), all of the help threads started with an [H] in the beginning and followed a very strict guideline on how to ask for help. I'm sure if you do a search with "[H] TvP" or something like that, you'll come across a lot of useful threads. There were also several outdated guides with the [G] tag, but the basic idea behind them are worth reading into.
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The easiest way to improve your gameplay vs protoss as terran on foreign level is to get used to play PvP. After many years I did so and my winratio vs protoss raised from 20% to around 70%.
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Sounds like a deal with the devil to me man...
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On May 30 2017 12:39 krooked wrote:
I have played enough TvPs to say that I honestly do not believe in playing "lategame" vs protoss, the later the game goes the worse it is for terran after a certain point, so I really want to focus on timing pushes.
Just play more and get better with your mechanics and you will notice that the case is the opposite on what you're saying.
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On June 08 2017 19:02 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 12:39 krooked wrote:
I have played enough TvPs to say that I honestly do not believe in playing "lategame" vs protoss, the later the game goes the worse it is for terran after a certain point, so I really want to focus on timing pushes. Just play more and get better with your mechanics and you will notice that the case is the opposite on what you're saying.
Do you even play Terran? See every Terran in this thread from Cryoc to Koget has not advised playing towards lategame or that late game gets better for Terran.
Radley's advice is the deal with the devil.
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@Piste my mechanics is by far my strongest attribute, clocking around 250-300 apm per game. I am fast and precise, but my game knowledge is almost non existent. I don't believe for a second that lategame is easier for terran than for protoss.
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On June 09 2017 05:50 DarkNetHunter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2017 19:02 Piste wrote:On May 30 2017 12:39 krooked wrote:
I have played enough TvPs to say that I honestly do not believe in playing "lategame" vs protoss, the later the game goes the worse it is for terran after a certain point, so I really want to focus on timing pushes. Just play more and get better with your mechanics and you will notice that the case is the opposite on what you're saying. Do you even play Terran? See every Terran in this thread from Cryoc to Koget has not advised playing towards lategame or that late game gets better for Terran. Radley's advice is the deal with the devil.
I think you both can come to an agreement if we can agree that this part
On June 08 2017 19:02 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2017 12:39 krooked wrote:
I have played enough TvPs to say that I honestly do not believe in playing "lategame" vs protoss, the later the game goes the worse it is for terran after a certain point, so I really want to focus on timing pushes. Just play more and get better with your mechanics and you will notice that the case is the opposite on what you're saying.
lowers the logical chance for this statement to be wrong quite a bit...
On June 09 2017 07:31 krooked wrote:
@Piste my mechanics is by far my strongest attribute, clocking around 250-300 apm per game. I am fast and precise, but my game knowledge is almost non existent.
Wait... don't... even if...
On June 09 2017 07:31 krooked wrote:
I don't believe for a second that lategame is easier for terran than for protoss.
It's all relative to the skill level. You cannot discuss this topic properly if people mix up Iccup red/yellow mortal rank with ex-pro/semi-pro-level (which I think Piste did... or he is on that level... or plays Terrrans who are just better players).
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EPT
