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I'm not sure what you are insinuating, does APM not relate to mechanics? I do stuff very fast in game, maybe I've not understood mechanics all this time.
Anyways, yes I agree that the level of play is extremely relevant, the context is that I am a very new player to bw, so I will be missing a bunch of the stuff that good players just do - what may seem like an insane amount of hassle for a newer player doesn't seem all that hard if you've done it ten thousand times.
As far as I've understood if by watching pro games and listening to people in this thread, lategame for terran has to be played because it is the only reliable way to win for terran. Both because Protoss has the clear advantage earlier in the game (stronger more mobile army early-midgame unless all in timing early from T which is dependant on P screwing something up). So I have accepted that I have to play lategame both to improve as a player but also to be a consistent performer in the matchup. That still doesn't really change my stance on my belief that lategame TvP is way worse for T than P, as is the whole entire matchup.
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In a way, you could have low APM and still "good mechanics" aka hitting the hotkeys by muscle memory without thinking about it, precisely and in an efficient order - but at the same time you could play like a sloth, very slow.
Obviously, everyone normally means that you're also doing it fast, fast enough to "do all the necessary stuff" in the pace that the games dictates, and more, also the advanced stuff that makes your play look like that of the koreans. That means, you also need a certain amount of APM - yet high APM doesn't equal good mechanics, right?
Judging a bit harshly, I'd say that for Terran from around 130 EAPM onward your game starts to slowly stop looking like crap... (apart from the lategame, still looks like crap).
What I was also hinting at with my cryptic warning is that, if you even start talking about APM, no matter what you're saying, people will come claiming that "APM means nothing" - which is obviously wrong in the long run... it's only true on a level where people can only do one of two things: play fast or play smart - smart play is better then.
I know where you're coming from with your learning experience, it was the same for me when I started in 2011 or so. It takes quite some stamina to convince people again and again that, from your point of view, what they think is easy is actually not... nothing of it, but only for you... here again, some people don't differentiate enough or try to take another point of view.
Of course you can reliably win TvP before the lategame if you specialize on that. Terran can have strong timing pushes at any point in the game, they just have to fit the situation and arguably that is a bit harder in TvP, because the timings are very slim against Protoss' growing macro-advantage and you always need good control (unlike, lets say, a proxy DT build or a bulldog not always needs good control). At least oftentimes, if you learn to use an earlier push as a threat, meanwhile expand and then draw back, you can gain an advantage that carries over to the lategame, making that more likely to turn out in your favor.
As this thread shows pretty well, the common idea is that TvP is harder for Terrans on low to mid, even high level - but then, at the top, when Terran has all the things together that they need, suddenly the game becomes balanced (not saying it's entirely imbalanced until then...), and at the absolute top, korean-pro-level, Terran even seems a bit stronger. Flash and the other top-Terrans can win TvP at any point in the game, with two tanks and a handful of marines, with 5 factories and just vultures+tanks, or in the lategame with 200/200 supply vs 5-6 base-Protoss... but people exaggerate if they do as if this could be achieved by just anyone.
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If you admit the main problem with your game is lack of (even non-existent) game knowledge, why so firmly entrenched in your position that late game is unfavorable? Unless you have sick vulture harass and kill zillions of probes, breaking the typical timing or 2fac pushes gets kind of routine for protoss. On the other hand, if you have enough mines and turrets and/or vessels to defend against recalls, the 3-3 terran army can walk over a protoss army/base as long as your science vessel use is about on par with the protoss' arbiter/storm use.
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I'm pretty sure he understands that late game is favorable for Terran in TvP compared to early/mid-game, but is saying that Terran is more difficult to play well and manage than Protoss is during the late game. I agree, and think PvT is probably easier to play than TvP at every point during the game. It's a useless thing to think about though unless you're considering switching races.
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On June 09 2017 20:00 Sero wrote:
I'm pretty sure he understands that late game is favorable for Terran in TvP compared to early/mid-game, but is saying that Terran is more difficult to play well and manage than Protoss is during the late game. I agree, and think PvT is probably easier to play than TvP at every point during the game. It's a useless thing to think about though unless you're considering switching races.
It s a matter of personal preference too. PvT is and has always been my worst MU by far as P to the point where i would zvt in lans. I have no issue with the first marine/tank push but 5-6 fac is more 50-50 and i usually die in the late game to any decent T. Either i overexpand or i m scared to do so and i end up behind in eco.
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@Sero, you perfectly sum up my position on it. It indeed is useless to even think about, the game doesn't care about my opinion, if I'm playing T I have to live with how the game works.
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Well, if you already have 250-300 apm, lategame is probably the better option for you because your macro should be much better than most of your opponents and building defenses vs arbiters should be no problem for you. Just play a more conservative 3base style where you build 3-4 factories before your 3rd CC until you know how to react to various threats.
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On June 10 2017 01:42 Cryoc wrote:
Well, if you already have 250-300 apm, lategame is probably the better option for you because your macro should be much better than most of your opponents and building defenses vs arbiters should be no problem for you. Just play a more conservative 3base style where you build 3-4 factories before your 3rd CC until you know how to react to various threats.
Very interesting. Thanks. I've been having issues doing 3rd off of 1-2 factories because opponents pressure my third or do some bust-move. Do you suggest getting tanks and turtle up or get groups of vults and mine the map up before taking my third?
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I would say build only tanks from one factory and use the rest for vulture production and lay mines around the map but avoid losing vultures needlessly. They are crucial to survive 2base allins with speedlots. With the vultures you are occupying P's army with clearing mines and preventing runbys. So it also releases pressure when you take your third.
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If you can get to 200/200 with upgrades, it doesn't matter how slow you get there. As long as you don't die. Protoss being ahead in some respects then becomes irrelevant. Of course, if your third is way too slow, P can suicide his army, lower your tankcount, get a new army and win. But overall, if you are playing for an endgame, I wouldn't worry that much how you get there. Just that you get there. It is kind of like an intensive property in thermodynamics; no matter what path you take to get there, once you are at the same point, those situations are indistinguishable.
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On June 03 2017 09:18 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2017 02:50 TwiggyWan wrote:
But think about it differently for a second. Instead of killing him (if you can't manage it) what if you played for the map split?
You could for example use the 2/1 timing to get your 4th, not attack, and build tons of defensive structures.
What's nice about FS is that you can take the center base as a 4th this way, wall off one side of it, put some tanks inside, float some buildings over the wall, block enemy movement, and simply wait for him to suicide waves and waves of shit onto you.
Because most of your units wouldnt move, you'd have hand time to lay tons of mines in all your bases to prevent recalls, and scan bases to see eventual stargates. Show me a game between evenly matched opponents above true D+ where this works and I give you a medal...
You'll die to 3 or more 200/200 Protoss armies from 30-40 gates...Or to 10 Arbiters (hallucination-)recalling or stasising, w/e... Or 12 carriers... And maybe you actually win one game or two in 10. Ernaine pointed out a lot of the obstacles that lie in the way of a TvP-victory on low to mid level. It feels like on that level, Protoss can consistently raise enough of the obstacles that Terran has to overcome, all of them, to win a game, while Terrans that train and try just as hard (or harder) cannot achieve that yet. They lose to one average move by Protoss after one, two, three or more good moves they made themselves... it always takes some more experience, games sense, control, multitasking, some more of everything to not have that one bad moment that preludes gg. That said: Even if you win 35-45% of your TvPs convincingly, and lose 35-45% deservedly to better Protoss players - you still rage about those 10-30% that just don't feel right, and this narrowed picture ruined my gaming sessions far too often...
40 gate, i wish i could make 40 gate vs Terran late game.
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EPT
