EPTPvP 1 base archives/cannons
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
Or are you talking about something else? | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
its a 1 gate constant zealot pump and on the 4/5 unit you build a dt, add forge make 1-3 cannons depending on your opponents build and FE. they have to wait for an ob to attack and the 6th unit you make is HT with storm tech. Put a single cannon at main and eventually youll have storm protection in both bases with a 5-7 gate pump to there 3-4. if you make a single mistake, such as losing your dt though, its tough. Just leave dt to the side and as soon as they attack go into base for probe kills. if anyone thinks this build is garbage, ill pvp you sometime | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
another variation of this build is sending first zealot to harass probes, as well as manner pylon them. stalls a big further | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
anyway, i dont see what's so hard about countering DT's and expansions. if you went ob tech, youll have an early enough ob to see the early archives, and then you can just make two more obs, leave one at home, add a gate (so you have 4) and attack... if you went reavers you can probably do even better by just raping cannons and killing any units that come at your reavershuttle with your early game goon mass. of course if you end up confusing the toss and they do something stupid it works really easily, but vs solid play i don't see how it measures up, really. | ||
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
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EmilyJieunChoi
China246 Posts
On January 16 2007 18:04 kyari_ wrote: lately i've seen this weird strategy of going fast citadel into cannons and expo and DT and i just don't understand it. doesn't the robo tech beat it in every way? cannons suck vs ranged goons and dt's die due to obs detection and reavers outrange cannons and in general expanding early gets raped by unit pump and then attack during your maynard i don't get it, what's the appeal of teching toward archives? are there any recent maps it's been good for and people just start using it on other maps for no reason? I've used this build many times. It works on many maps and works very well. You don't DT you fast expo into storm + cannons. Early game that is very sufficient to hold off many attacks. Also, for the very mistake you said, I will take advantage of this. While you build up your detection i'll already have had myself an expo that is well defended. Obviously this strat has it's drawbacks but it can be effective in situations | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
 Looks like a correct counter maybe fast cannon expo. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
On January 16 2007 19:35 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: I've used this build many times. It works on many maps and works very well. You don't DT you fast expo into storm + cannons. Early game that is very sufficient to hold off many attacks. Also, for the very mistake you said, I will take advantage of this. While you build up your detection i'll already have had myself an expo that is well defended. Obviously this strat has it's drawbacks but it can be effective in situations Are we to assume that your opponent did not have a probe at your expo which promptly sees the pylon and nexus go down. And therefore did not immediately head to reaver and 3 gate if he wasn't already. He'll wait 'til nexus is done then smash it before you get any benefit at all. Most you'll possibly have is 2 storms, and thats if reaver doesn't take out a stormer, which is remarkably easy. You'll get flattened by any decent player unless you're as good as Reach. This is a build that relies upon bad scouting by your enemy or him panicking and counter expoing with a much slower one himself. That it works is merely indicative of the level of public gamers, not of the effectiveness of the build. | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
obviously you only do it when they can't scout you or if your faking a tech (like pretending to get dragoon range by upgrading air weapons at cybercore and then canceling after you've killed the scouting probe and instead following a fast DT tech.) or if you've put them behind with manner pylons + zealot rush. after rushing the 1st time with DTs make sure u keep an extra DT outside his base, wait for him to leave when he gets his 1st obs (he's going to rush ur expansion). At this time u should send the Hidden DT back into his main and start killing probes, he'll usually have to pull his army back, if he waits and gets 2 obs before attacking like an expert player would, then it's possible to muster the defenses necessary to hold off his attack. the simplest counter is to simply switch to DT tech yourself after you find out he's going DTs and drop his main. | ||
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
On January 17 2007 10:49 MyLostTemple wrote: obviously you only do it when they can't scout you or if your faking a tech (like pretending to get dragoon range by upgrading air weapons at cybercore and then canceling after you've killed the scouting probe and instead following a fast DT tech.) or if you've put them behind with manner pylons + zealot rush. under what circumstances would someone simply be "unable" to scout you? also, the upgrade cancel thing might work, but what if they still decide to go observer tech? a straight tech to observers will come sooner than a DT will unless they go 2 gate goon pump, even if they do get range first (think of it similar to PvT timing). and manner pylon is really stupid, i think. unless you trap like 5/6 probes i'm pretty sure it puts you both back if he reacted properly. On January 17 2007 10:49 MyLostTemple wrote: after rushing the 1st time with DTs make sure u keep an extra DT outside his base, wait for him to leave when he gets his 1st obs (he's going to rush ur expansion). At this time u should send the Hidden DT back into his main and start killing probes, he'll usually have to pull his army back, if he waits and gets 2 obs before attacking like an expert player would, then it's possible to muster the defenses necessary to hold off his attack. i disagree that waiting for a 2nd obs will give you enough time to hold off his attack. i don't know the exact time, but i'm pretty sure they build about as fast as zealots do, and only half the control. what are you going to do, muster up an extra half a zealot? and i'm confused by "after rushing the 1st time". are you referring to a previous game or are you referring to an earlier part of the same game? i don't think you understand this, but a straight to obs tech will come earlier than a DT tech. it takes 25 more gas and 20 more game seconds, not to mention the required walking distance. On January 17 2007 10:49 MyLostTemple wrote: the simplest counter is to simply switch to DT tech yourself after you find out he's going DTs and drop his main. um why would the counter to DT/cannon be DT? he's definitely going to cannon his nexus up, everybody that i've seen use this build does. i'm sorry but i really don't see how this beats a straight observer tech. maybe a dual gate, constant goon pump slow tech to obs, but even that requires them not knowing you're teching toward DT. =\\ | ||
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
To name a few, 2 gate obs, 2 gate into reaver, 2 gate obs into expand, straight reaver, 3 gate obs etc etc.. basically all the mainstream PvP builds rape this. There is no justifiable arguement for why this should ever be a real bo. | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
map doesnt really matter, but as i said i would only do this on a map with a safe nat like luna/arcadia/etc. | ||
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
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CuddlyCuteKitten
Sweden2582 Posts
Don't know the exact timing anymore, 2nd gate timing depends on what you scout (before or after robo respectivly) as do observers (before or after 1st reaver respectivly). I think I usually graded range pretty late too since the objective with the build wasn't really to attack with goons early on. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
Check here though not too sure if these are the right replays [no sc atm]. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
Anyway, not a godawful build like some make it out to be, but not all that awesome either. oG)Stormtoss had a dt guide on the og site which i commented on, but it seems dead. | ||
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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EmilyJieunChoi
China246 Posts
On January 16 2007 19:28 kyari_ wrote: eh, manner pylon doesn't really affect me as much as i would think people liked to. i usually go 12 pylon, and for some reason i get a probe advantage doing this and only delay my tech a little bit, although ive noticed people that go gas first still have less gas than i do and thus equal or later tech, and im not sure if its because they suck and can't optimize their build order to use the gas as soon as they get it, or if its related to some weird quirk of going 12 pylon... or what anyway, i dont see what's so hard about countering DT's and expansions. if you went ob tech, youll have an early enough ob to see the early archives, and then you can just make two more obs, leave one at home, add a gate (so you have 4) and attack... if you went reavers you can probably do even better by just raping cannons and killing any units that come at your reavershuttle with your early game goon mass. of course if you end up confusing the toss and they do something stupid it works really easily, but vs solid play i don't see how it measures up, really. wrong on so many levels the manner pylon will slow you down. raping cannons is not so easy when your opponent has MULTIPLE storms. how exactly would "solid play go?" 3 Gate reaver? 5 gate reaver? | ||
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Detonate
Iceland578 Posts
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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kyari_
Romania558 Posts
On January 18 2007 12:29 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: wrong on so many levels the manner pylon will slow you down. raping cannons is not so easy when your opponent has MULTIPLE storms. how exactly would "solid play go?" 3 Gate reaver? 5 gate reaver? we're assuming they don't have very many dragoons, if i have 2 reavers/shuttle and twice the number of dragoons you have i dont think storms are going to matter that much. do you think i am going to allow all of my dragoons to remain in storm? yes i will take damage but i will see the HT before you get to storm me, and i will move my dragoons back until the storms end. yes, ill take damage, but it isn't enough damage to equalize the battlefield. if you have 3 storms that's either a third HT or i let you sit there with 2 HT for a lot longer than i should have; either way i attacked too late to let you have 3 storms..2 storms is about the most i see you getting off, especially if you decided to go DT first which this strategy describes. solid play depends on what they're doing exactly, but it basically means good scouting, good decisions based on your scouting, good macro and good micro. | ||
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KwarK
United States42292 Posts
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DaZe
Sweden2111 Posts
cannon -> exp robo -> early ht drop art strat^^! | ||
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micronesia
United States24634 Posts
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NuKeke
6 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 16 2007 21:11 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Nvr hurt to try Looks like a correct counter maybe fast cannon expo. PLEASE stop posting =/ | ||
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
On January 17 2007 15:48 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Horrible BO for PvP. Not viable at all unless you play a retarded P who goes 3 gate goon with no obs (Cypressman sometimes!! hah). To name a few, 2 gate obs, 2 gate into reaver, 2 gate obs into expand, straight reaver, 3 gate obs etc etc.. basically all the mainstream PvP builds rape this. There is no justifiable arguement for why this should ever be a real bo. 3 gate no obs is viable if you scout robo. If you pressure early with 2 gate zs vs a P that techs and manage to get a z in and see his robo. You can pump from 3 gates and contain/delay his expo while you take yours. Then get a robo after allowing for a safer/slightly faster expo while at the same time making it tough for them to take theres. Doing it blind though is retarded, you're right on that. To comment on the original topic. 2 gate zealot pressure --> goon pressure --> robo/obs then reaver + 3rd gate --> move out as soon as second reaver is done destroys this. | ||
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ZpuX
Sweden1230 Posts
On January 16 2007 18:04 kyari_ wrote: lately i've seen this weird strategy of going fast citadel into cannons and expo and DT and i just don't understand it. doesn't the robo tech beat it in every way? cannons suck vs ranged goons and dt's die due to obs detection and reavers outrange cannons and in general expanding early gets raped by unit pump and then attack during your maynard i don't get it, what's the appeal of teching toward archives? are there any recent maps it's been good for and people just start using it on other maps for no reason? Ahh just a few things you have to take into account. 1. He dont do DT build if he sees your robo 2. He wont show you this Archive build 3. You often do a 1 Gate - Range - 2 Gate - Robo build while building goons etc during that time, If your scout dies, He is able to tech to templar right after his first game, without you seeing anything, thus getting DT faster than your Observer. And If you DO counter the build with obs, you cant move out instantly, because you are afraid of his dt to sneak into your base, you will have to wait for another observer, and leave few units at home to be safe. And you are always talking about "my 3 gate mass goon" so you think he wont have anything at home at all? I used a fast dt build (no, not vs some random pubics, but vs decent ppl) where I got storm up etc in time for his attack and I was able to fend it off in alot of games. In the games where I lost I was just inferior to my opponent or I made a few misstakes. That being said does not mean it's the very best build out there in PvP, because imo, there are no ultimate build. DT > 3Gate Goon > 3Gate Goon Observer > DT, you can compare it to ZvZ, FE > 12 Pool Main > 9 Pool > FE. You just cant say "this sucks" untill you hold all the facts, which you certenly not did. I DO know that I aruged against my self with the "3Gate Goon Observer > DT" I just want to say that pvp is quite random depending on what strat you chose, and those are not 100% true, as a FE in zvz can beat a 9pool aswell, just taking alot of circumstanses into account. To Summerize, DT is a hidden build which you do to suprise your enemy, or win early, it is NOT a build to get into a big macro fest. | ||
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epidion
United States316 Posts
And Kwark: However if we have many games I'll both be able to emphasise the quality of my advice regarding pvp over yours Be more cocky please. | ||
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j0ehoe
United States2705 Posts
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luxjason
Canada15 Posts
but liek all things, it is situational and a n intuition is required to pull it off effectively against a good player. | ||
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