i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
my point is that t can get vults without delaying vessels as they cost no gas and factory is needed for starport. the down side is t will get less tanks but if t goes 2 fact or quickly adds a 2nd fact after vessel then the problem shouldn't be that big, some t's with their gosu mnm only build a few tanks anyway.
there has been quite a big thread about the usefullness of queens.
but the vulture thing is interesting, would like to hear someone good's opinion on that
would you really call vultures with mines researched early game??? i don't think so, taking into consideration you want to have 2-3 racks and/or expansion running before raiding z expoes with vults.
i may be wrong but i don't think vultures with mines are an early game option.
if not early game then early-mid game. vultures are so cheap you can pretty much get them without delaying anything. mines are cheap enough at 100/100 and researchs fast, machine shop is needed for tanks anyway.
ive seen some pros use vultures late game... but i have only ever seen Nada use it early game in IEST 2005 ( i think it was this) pwning a zerg easy with his sexy micro
On December 20 2006 06:09 vinsc wrote: ive seen some pros use vultures late game... but i have only ever seen Nada use it early game in IEST 2005 ( i think it was this) pwning a zerg easy with his sexy micro
well NaDa's vulture micro pwnes teh shit out of most zergs ^^
don't vulture's delay your first try to break the sunken line? are they viable as mix units with m&m? can you afford spending that extra apm on laying mines/ hit&running with your vults? unless you're a pro, i guess these questions will have to be answered with "nope".
On December 20 2006 05:50 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
Well, I'm not very experienced in TvZ, but can't Z just send one ling to the mine and make T waste them all? Then you rush in with speedlings gg -_-;;;
u don't lay the mines togetter like in tvp... you lay them at your ramp and far apart along the flanking route that z use. if z don't suspect mines he lose units, if he does then he'll have doubt/fear in his mind and be less agressive, plus lings can't do shit to mines even if ovie eventually sees them.
On December 20 2006 05:50 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
Well, I'm not very experienced in TvZ, but can't Z just send one ling to the mine and make T waste them all? Then you rush in with speedlings gg -_-;;;
yea, early game they can. late game it gets harder. you try controlling a 200/200 zerg blob, complete with ling lurk ult def queens n shit ><. vults actually do work late game. they do a good amount of damage to ults and really help under swarm since its so hard to control units that late. you can just randomly mine the middle of the map too, since when the zerg is moving, hes most likely gonna be all melee units and probably hit a few mines along the way.
idk what zvts youve been watching, but queens certainly arent rare. i know not everyone uses them, but i do and i know a bunch of other zergs that use them zvt. snare swarm and plague absolutely rapes. its just gets tricky to do later, esp if the t is on the move. someone said it, theres a big post about the use of queens.
Ensnare makes stimmed rines, attack like normal rines. So in other words boom no stim. Medics just heal are not making the stim any faster, then u can plague O.o
that's not true, esnare only affects the firerate of firebat, marines shoot just the same. Both move slower.
btw, i have seen some reps of Z using queens, and usually they do when they think they are ahead. It's safer to go with something you know will work than something there's a chance it won't be useful (like mising an esanre or getting to few marines, or what was mentioned before about mines).
Mines on your ramp in tvz is like a last ditch effort but thats where i usually see them being used. gosu players mine up the map in tvz when they see that z just got swarm and they dont have speed lords.
Some fast expo builds use like 2 vultures and like 6 marines into expo from what i have seen. SK is stronger than anything vults have to offer and vults are really only thrown in randomly when T has no gas for tanks (i think). plus they are really cheap when you go SK because you have a bit of extra minerals for w/e.
It takes a lot of micro but can pay off if used right.
As for queens, i have seen JulyZerg use them with mutaling, and Savior a few times but most of the time swarm is used before queens (if they are even used at all).
getting defiler/consume early is much more important than getting queens, but i suppose after you have consume/plague/energy and a good eco going then you can get queens/ensnare..but i'd probably still rather go for ultras/guardian or more lurkers/lings/hydra etc. if you're playing a good T you dont have a chance to do something extravagant like queens
On December 20 2006 10:51 Raist wrote: getting defiler/consume early is much more important than getting queens, but i suppose after you have consume/plague/energy and a good eco going then you can get queens/ensnare..but i'd probably still rather go for ultras/guardian or more lurkers/lings/hydra etc. if you're playing a good T you dont have a chance to do something extravagant like queens
I'm sure 100/100 will utterly destroy your economy.
And if it does, here's how you make up for it: 1. better splits 2. no idle drones
Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
Btw queen usage is very much theorycrafting. Microing a queen takes too much time, you'd rather be spending in getting that hive a lilttle faster, or in an upgrade rather than a queen, plus ensare needs to be researched = less gas. Plus they get killed freaking ez if they dont cast from the proper range...
On December 20 2006 13:16 Night[Mare] wrote: Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
We've been over this a million times. Ensnare affects attack rate as well as movement rate, and in the case of stimmed rines makes them shoot a lot slower. Go try it out.
Vultures are used TvZ to lay mines against swarm. There is really no other use for them, and you might as well get more rines.
You can only have so much gas. Minerals usually stack up late game for a terran since he's spending his gas on vessels, so if you don't have the gas to run all your facts for tanks too, vults are a nice alternate use for an otherwise idle production facility.
And the mines can be surprisingly good against ling/lurk, or ultra/ling armies. It forces the zerg to do some clearing, or work hydras into his army to minimize mine damage.
On December 20 2006 13:16 Night[Mare] wrote: Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
Btw queen usage is very much theorycrafting. Microing a queen takes too much time, you'd rather be spending in getting that hive a lilttle faster, or in an upgrade rather than a queen, plus ensare needs to be researched = less gas. Plus they get killed freaking ez if they dont cast from the proper range...
Bleh lemme throw a counter agument!!
Queen usage is not needed at current state of gaming but as game evolve the players will be forced to use queen because even idiots like us could sometimes say "damn a queen would've been awesome there!" Micro queen takes less time than microing defiler iirc, so it's not that much of a stretch. It's more like templar, but instead it ensnares rather than storms. Ensnare costs only 100/100 to make, and it's research doesn't affect the weapon/armour research. Queen costs only 100/100. Totoally worth it when you can use them right.
On December 20 2006 23:08 Night[Mare] wrote: im not saying queens are usless. Just look at eriadors style. its roxx =)
I'm not saying you are saying queens are useless! I'm saying that you shouldn't make queen sounded like THAT much of an extra cost :p
that's the point of my post.. i'm not saying getting 6 queens to replace defilers, but like 1-2 in addition of defilers, queen's nest is "free" as it's needed for hive and 200/200 for 2 queens is not much by that stage of the game and they can make a big difference b4 defilers comes out
same for vultures, i'm not suggesting getting mass vultures instead of mnm, but a few to complement.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures.MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
nah, medics, firebats and vessels don't cost gas at all
seriously, if you actually have the micro to do it, queens (and DA's, for that matter) rock the shit out of your opponent's army...i agree that vultures are not very reliable, though. but gas IS an issue.
Ensnare is really useful for flanking marine tank armies when the terran stims, attacks, then runs back to his tanks. ensnare makes marines sooo damn slow (running) and that is what the use is, not for making them attack slower. zerg has strength in good flanks. its just so damn hard to use ensnare because you have so many more important things. queen AI fucking blows too; they stop and dont cast and shit like that.
I used vultures a lot late game. They are underused because korean gosus rather trust their godly 300 apm M&M control. But for us newbies who have low apm and most of the time more than 1k minerals in late game TvZ, vultures are a great way to spend your money efficiently :
- mines slow the zerg hydra/lurk/swarm attacks, giving your tanks time to deal a good amount of splash damage.
- they can be used to quiclky harass fresh new expos where no sunk are built + they can prevent a crackling raid on an undefended expo of yours without you having to move & stim your main marine force.
- Mines also helps you a lot in knowing where / when the zerg is moving / attacking and if he isn't careful you can always have the pleasure to see 2,3 mines rape 500/400 worth of units :p
For queens, they are rarely used not because they're bad but because defilers are SO godly + they have consume. Not to mention every single bit of gaz counts in ZvT.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote: Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures.MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
nah, medics, firebats and vessels don't cost gas at all
seriously, if you actually have the micro to do it, queens (and DA's, for that matter) rock the shit out of your opponent's army...i agree that vultures are not very reliable, though. but gas IS an issue.
yes, but that is what I was saying... Marines medics and firebats are more mineral intensive. So you can afford to make units that are more gas intensive, like Vessels/tanks. Vessels tanks are more flexible and potentially better than vulture in many cases. Vultures good in late game, when zerg army becomes mostly Ultra, lings, lurker, defiler. Vultures is one quick and cheap average counter to swarm.
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote: Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
I am quite open minded, actually. But some units are just too specific, easy counter, or simply costy. Its like suggesting to develop nuke and optic flare and nuke zerg bases!! It is a valid strategy, I have done it... but it wont work every game, and its harder to pull than simply dropping 7 stimmed marines 1 medic.
Its just to my reasoning, queens are not very useful, easy to counter, and relatively expensive. First, theyre only useful when they have mana, you need to research their spells (time + money), and you need to multitask with them (extra work).
Im almost 100% positive that it doesnt slow down wraiths attack neither. Ensnare slows down movement only. Wraiths die pretty fast and easily anyway without the need of ensnare... specially in late game :p Ensnare might be good to give lurkers some extra kills when engaing marine armies. Preventing marines to run away after lurker burrowed, even then I question its benefits... not sure if its worth the cost and extra task.
I wont even go about broodling, parasite. There is much about it. While broodling can be potentially good in some circumtances (tornado terran), by the time it develop and stuff, Z expo might be gone already.
Just try making Queens. You will see how fast and easy it is for terran to counter them. If they dont get irradiated, they probably be shot down by turret or marines before they reached their targets.
i can see mid-game not wanting to use queens for economic purposes, but late game theres no excuse for not having at least 3 around in either zvt or zvp.
when terran heads towards the middle preparing for an attack, get into your normal flank positions. send in a queen and a handful of lings underneath i t (cheap fodder, queens range is kinda shitty) and snare away. circle him up n go. hes immediately gonna try to move cuz he knows swarm is coming, swarm a step ahead of him. youll be hittin urself for not using queens earlier. ensare and plague works awesome too.
12:10 first ensnare 12:45 vultures getting raped 14:15 mines vs lurker under swarm 14:40 another ensnare
just for those who want to skip to the important parts... that's a nice video because it also showed some vulture use in tvz...and i think queens are potientially, given you have the micro, more powerful than vultures can ever be.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels),
- suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
yes queens are expensive...queens nest + spell research + queen isnt cheap for zerg terran goes wraith just to kill overlords...? that's something new so basically you should get queens to counter wraiths killing your overlords and so happen to have some mutas to kill wraiths after you ensnare? sure sounds feasible
queens are not expensive, cost 100/100 and the nest is needed for hive anyway
On December 21 2006 11:12 dronebabo wrote: this is ridiculous you guys should stop theorycrafting
On December 21 2006 10:59 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote:
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels),
- suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
yes queens are expensive...queens nest + spell research + queen isnt cheap for zerg terran goes wraith just to kill overlords...? that's something new so basically you should get queens to counter wraiths killing your overlords and so happen to have some mutas to kill wraiths after you ensnare? sure sounds feasible
queens are not expensive, cost 100/100 and the nest is needed for hive anyway
You're missing the point dronebabo is making there. You're whole strategy has to hinge on a bunch of assumptions if you're playing a queen strat. You have to be playing a super fast hive, otherwise the queen and ensnare won't be ready quickly enough.
And the cost of the nest + queen + ensnare research is nothing to scoff at that early in the game.
So get one for late game. Even without ensnare, you can annoy him with parasites. 100/100 is nothing lategame, unless it's a base killing race or something.
On December 21 2006 13:41 evanthebouncy~ wrote: Ensnare DOES affect attack rates. I bet 100000000000 dollars on that punk.
I remember a thread where they discussed whether or not it did. It changes only the speed at which marines aim at a different target, and not the actual fire rate. As a result the rines aren't really affected in terms of shooting.
This a 1v1 type scenario of all units vs eachother. In attack speed. If you put these units vs eachother in a fight, they will win every time. If I leave a > sign there, it means that unit will always win vs the ensnared unit on level ground 1v1.
Zerg: Ling > Ensnared ling Hydra > Ensnared hydra Lurker > Ensnared lurker (Yes, lurkers if ensnared before burrow will shoot slower). Muta > Ensnared muta Guardian > Ensnared guardian Devourer > Ensnared devourer Ultra = Ensnared ultra however the regular non ensnared ultra will win more fights, with 8, or 29 life remaining. The ensnared ultra can win too though so I assume it isn't really changed.
So with zerg, all rates of attack are changed except ultra.
Terran: Marine > Ensnared marine Stimmed marine > Ensnared stimmed marine Regular marine > Ensnared stimmed marine Firebat > Ensnared firebat Stimmed firebat > Ensnared stimmed firebat Regular firebat > Ensnared stimmed firebat Ghost > Ensnared ghost (it changes their rate of fire, but you won't notice probably unless it's vs something like a siege tank / bc etc..) Medic = heal rate unaffected Vulture > Ensnared vulture Tank = Tank (ensnared tank will likely lose a bit more often, but really the rate of fire isn't affected so much as turning the gun / moving is. Same with siege mode). Goliath = Goliath, air fire is also exactly the same. (again, ensnared gol will lose a bit more often.) Wraith > Ensnared Wraith Valk > Ensnared Valk BC > Ensnared BC
Gol, Medic, and Tank are unchanged.
Protoss: Zealot > Ensnared Zealot Dragoon > Ensnared Dragoon with 32ish life to spare. Dark Templar > Ensnared Dark Templar with 4 life to spare. Archon > Ensnared Archon with 50 shields to spare. Reaver = Reaver. But yes, ensnare still effects its already slow speed. Corsair > Ensnared Corsair Scout > Ensnared Scout Carrier = Carrier unless you ensnare only one carriers interceptors. And even if you do, they CAN still get off their remaining shots as the carrier blows up to destroy the other carrier so it barely matters.
Reaver and carriers remain unchanged attack wise. The corsair and the carrier are a bit surprising to most, because you'd think with slow interceptors a carrier would blow. Nah, they're still really powerful. Corsair, you'd expect with that rate of fire for the other corsair to obliterate the other. But nah, 17-22 life usually on the non snared sair. But hey, that is still quite a few shots faster.
Vultures: They have their uses. I use them very often in TvZ. Look at Mondragons replay pack of vs me if he saved most of those games and you'll see them being used very, very efficiently in many cases as game winners.
Most useful for certain timed builds / vs defiler users.
No offense to LD, but queens suck (in most situations). And here's my argument.
Professional players don't use queens (in most situations).
Professional players are much better than anyone on TL.net (yes, even leg, rek, frozen, LD, etc...)
Pro players have more invested in the game than anyone on TL.net (it's their job)
Thus, queens suck most of the time.
We could theorycraft all day. But really, that's the simple way to test any strategy. I know, its pretty conformist, but still. It's like with scientists. We could argue all day that it would be easy to fly to pluto and back in day, but if NASA dudes say it's not possible with current technology, then you should trust the NASA dudes.
I use queens only for parasite. 1 queen with parasite can really help your center fight.
or I use queens entirely against 2 fact terran while his army is still small --> double evo chamber, muta +1 attack upgrade, and ensnare. It works beautifully, and you can go to guardians.
On December 23 2006 08:47 -_- wrote: No offense to LD, but queens suck (in most situations). And here's my argument.
Professional players don't use queens (in most situations).
Professional players are much better than anyone on TL.net (yes, even leg, rek, frozen, LD, etc...)
Pro players have more invested in the game than anyone on TL.net (it's their job)
Thus, queens suck most of the time.
We could theorycraft all day. But really, that's the simple way to test any strategy. I know, its pretty conformist, but still. It's like with scientists. We could argue all day that it would be easy to fly to pluto and back in day, but if NASA dudes say it's not possible with current technology, then you should trust the NASA dudes.
You say that 3 years ago about defilers when everybody was doing ultra/ling You say that 3 years ago when people used carriers more than arbiters You say that 3 years ago when people thought late game hydra/plauge sux balls You say that now whe people never used queens, will you say the same 3 years from now?
On December 23 2006 08:47 -_- wrote: No offense to LD, but queens suck (in most situations). And here's my argument.
Professional players don't use queens (in most situations).
Professional players are much better than anyone on TL.net (yes, even leg, rek, frozen, LD, etc...)
Pro players have more invested in the game than anyone on TL.net (it's their job)
Thus, queens suck most of the time.
We could theorycraft all day. But really, that's the simple way to test any strategy. I know, its pretty conformist, but still. It's like with scientists. We could argue all day that it would be easy to fly to pluto and back in day, but if NASA dudes say it's not possible with current technology, then you should trust the NASA dudes.
You say that 3 years ago about defilers when everybody was doing ultra/ling You say that 3 years ago when people used carriers more than arbiters You say that 3 years ago when people thought late game hydra/plauge sux balls You say that now whe people never used queens, will you say the same 3 years from now?
Defiler Ultra Ling was always used, what the heck are you talking about?
Carriers (and arbiters) were always used, what the heck are talking about?
Hydra plague SUCKS BALLS (ZVZ it sucks, ZVT it sucks, and ZVP is sucks, what am I missing? And who uses it regularly -- give me 5 reps from the same player), what the heck are talking about?
There are 2 reasons why new strats become more popular.
1) Maps. Different maps, different strats. 2) Advancement of the game. But starcraft has been actualized. Its been selved. It's done. We're not going to find out that straight zealots are best PVT. Or that mass HTs are the way to go.
And people have been bitching about how good queens are for years, and years, and years. They havn't caught on yet.
On December 23 2006 08:47 -_- wrote: No offense to LD, but queens suck (in most situations). And here's my argument.
Professional players don't use queens (in most situations).
Professional players are much better than anyone on TL.net (yes, even leg, rek, frozen, LD, etc...)
Pro players have more invested in the game than anyone on TL.net (it's their job)
Thus, queens suck most of the time.
We could theorycraft all day. But really, that's the simple way to test any strategy. I know, its pretty conformist, but still. It's like with scientists. We could argue all day that it would be easy to fly to pluto and back in day, but if NASA dudes say it's not possible with current technology, then you should trust the NASA dudes.
You say that 3 years ago about defilers when everybody was doing ultra/ling You say that 3 years ago when people used carriers more than arbiters You say that 3 years ago when people thought late game hydra/plauge sux balls You say that now whe people never used queens, will you say the same 3 years from now?
Defiler Ultra Ling was always used, what the heck are you talking about?
Carriers (and arbiters) were always used, what the heck are talking about?
Hydra plague SUCKS BALLS (ZVZ it sucks, ZVT it sucks, and ZVP is sucks, what am I missing?), what the heck are talking about?
There are 2 reasons why new strats become more popular.
1) Maps. Different maps, different strats. 2) Advancement of the game. But starcraft has been actualized. Its been selved. It's done. We're not going to find out that straight zealots are best PVT. Or that mass HTs are the way to go.
And people have been bitching about how good queens are for years, and years, and years. They havn't caught on yet.
Pffffft I remember when I first joined this forum there's this TvZ in the rep section where hydra/plague was used. I even made a post about it and ppl laughed at me saying Lol that's nvr gonna work. But if you look at Savior's ZvT nowadays it's awesome plague usage. Wisen up. I can't believe you said "Starcraft is done" The sheer ignorance makes me want to punch you.
On December 23 2006 08:47 -_- wrote: No offense to LD, but queens suck (in most situations). And here's my argument.
Professional players don't use queens (in most situations).
Professional players are much better than anyone on TL.net (yes, even leg, rek, frozen, LD, etc...)
Pro players have more invested in the game than anyone on TL.net (it's their job)
Thus, queens suck most of the time.
We could theorycraft all day. But really, that's the simple way to test any strategy. I know, its pretty conformist, but still. It's like with scientists. We could argue all day that it would be easy to fly to pluto and back in day, but if NASA dudes say it's not possible with current technology, then you should trust the NASA dudes.
You say that 3 years ago about defilers when everybody was doing ultra/ling You say that 3 years ago when people used carriers more than arbiters You say that 3 years ago when people thought late game hydra/plauge sux balls You say that now whe people never used queens, will you say the same 3 years from now?
Defiler Ultra Ling was always used, what the heck are you talking about?
Carriers (and arbiters) were always used, what the heck are talking about?
Hydra plague SUCKS BALLS (ZVZ it sucks, ZVT it sucks, and ZVP is sucks, what am I missing?), what the heck are talking about?
There are 2 reasons why new strats become more popular.
1) Maps. Different maps, different strats. 2) Advancement of the game. But starcraft has been actualized. Its been selved. It's done. We're not going to find out that straight zealots are best PVT. Or that mass HTs are the way to go.
And people have been bitching about how good queens are for years, and years, and years. They havn't caught on yet.
Pffffft I remember when I first joined this forum there's this TvZ in the rep section where hydra/plague was used. I even made a post about it and ppl laughed at me saying Lol that's nvr gonna work. But if you look at Savior's ZvT nowadays it's awesome plague usage. Wisen up. I can't believe you said "Starcraft is done" The sheer ignorance makes me want to punch you.
Starcraft is done. There will only be new strategies because of new maps. Your love for starcraft has blinded you. Like I said, we're never going to find that straight zealots are the best way to play PVT on LT. Now there are styles. For instance, you might have a micro style and use queens sometimes (I think most non-koreans do this, and, coincidentally, non-koreans are worse). But that's not the best style. Pro gamers know how much time they should spend on micro and macro and they don't use them much.
And what's this about hydra plague? I can see a Z user using plague with defilers and hydras (as has been done for all time), but hydra plague sucks, in most situations (at least compared to swarm ling ultra).
The only way queens will ever be used is if there is a QUANTUM leap in skill, and people learn how to micro and macro perfectly at the same time.
For some reason, it has to be something with the build order for queens but I ALWAYS run into trouble against SK terrans when I use queens. I don't have any problems against mass tanks but the vessels keeps pwning my queens/defilers. My Hydra/lurker build counters SK way better.
EPT
