i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
my point is that t can get vults without delaying vessels as they cost no gas and factory is needed for starport. the down side is t will get less tanks but if t goes 2 fact or quickly adds a 2nd fact after vessel then the problem shouldn't be that big, some t's with their gosu mnm only build a few tanks anyway.
there has been quite a big thread about the usefullness of queens.
but the vulture thing is interesting, would like to hear someone good's opinion on that
would you really call vultures with mines researched early game??? i don't think so, taking into consideration you want to have 2-3 racks and/or expansion running before raiding z expoes with vults.
i may be wrong but i don't think vultures with mines are an early game option.
if not early game then early-mid game. vultures are so cheap you can pretty much get them without delaying anything. mines are cheap enough at 100/100 and researchs fast, machine shop is needed for tanks anyway.
ive seen some pros use vultures late game... but i have only ever seen Nada use it early game in IEST 2005 ( i think it was this) pwning a zerg easy with his sexy micro
On December 20 2006 06:09 vinsc wrote: ive seen some pros use vultures late game... but i have only ever seen Nada use it early game in IEST 2005 ( i think it was this) pwning a zerg easy with his sexy micro
well NaDa's vulture micro pwnes teh shit out of most zergs ^^
don't vulture's delay your first try to break the sunken line? are they viable as mix units with m&m? can you afford spending that extra apm on laying mines/ hit&running with your vults? unless you're a pro, i guess these questions will have to be answered with "nope".
On December 20 2006 05:50 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
Well, I'm not very experienced in TvZ, but can't Z just send one ling to the mine and make T waste them all? Then you rush in with speedlings gg -_-;;;
u don't lay the mines togetter like in tvp... you lay them at your ramp and far apart along the flanking route that z use. if z don't suspect mines he lose units, if he does then he'll have doubt/fear in his mind and be less agressive, plus lings can't do shit to mines even if ovie eventually sees them.
On December 20 2006 05:50 EmilyJieunChoi wrote: Vultures are used when a player usually has two fact late game. However, most try to use the gosu SK build. Mines are not a guranteed thing. Irradiate is more selective and more beneficial imo.
Well, I'm not very experienced in TvZ, but can't Z just send one ling to the mine and make T waste them all? Then you rush in with speedlings gg -_-;;;
yea, early game they can. late game it gets harder. you try controlling a 200/200 zerg blob, complete with ling lurk ult def queens n shit ><. vults actually do work late game. they do a good amount of damage to ults and really help under swarm since its so hard to control units that late. you can just randomly mine the middle of the map too, since when the zerg is moving, hes most likely gonna be all melee units and probably hit a few mines along the way.
idk what zvts youve been watching, but queens certainly arent rare. i know not everyone uses them, but i do and i know a bunch of other zergs that use them zvt. snare swarm and plague absolutely rapes. its just gets tricky to do later, esp if the t is on the move. someone said it, theres a big post about the use of queens.
Ensnare makes stimmed rines, attack like normal rines. So in other words boom no stim. Medics just heal are not making the stim any faster, then u can plague O.o
that's not true, esnare only affects the firerate of firebat, marines shoot just the same. Both move slower.
btw, i have seen some reps of Z using queens, and usually they do when they think they are ahead. It's safer to go with something you know will work than something there's a chance it won't be useful (like mising an esanre or getting to few marines, or what was mentioned before about mines).
Mines on your ramp in tvz is like a last ditch effort but thats where i usually see them being used. gosu players mine up the map in tvz when they see that z just got swarm and they dont have speed lords.
Some fast expo builds use like 2 vultures and like 6 marines into expo from what i have seen. SK is stronger than anything vults have to offer and vults are really only thrown in randomly when T has no gas for tanks (i think). plus they are really cheap when you go SK because you have a bit of extra minerals for w/e.
It takes a lot of micro but can pay off if used right.
As for queens, i have seen JulyZerg use them with mutaling, and Savior a few times but most of the time swarm is used before queens (if they are even used at all).
getting defiler/consume early is much more important than getting queens, but i suppose after you have consume/plague/energy and a good eco going then you can get queens/ensnare..but i'd probably still rather go for ultras/guardian or more lurkers/lings/hydra etc. if you're playing a good T you dont have a chance to do something extravagant like queens
On December 20 2006 10:51 Raist wrote: getting defiler/consume early is much more important than getting queens, but i suppose after you have consume/plague/energy and a good eco going then you can get queens/ensnare..but i'd probably still rather go for ultras/guardian or more lurkers/lings/hydra etc. if you're playing a good T you dont have a chance to do something extravagant like queens
I'm sure 100/100 will utterly destroy your economy.
And if it does, here's how you make up for it: 1. better splits 2. no idle drones
Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
Btw queen usage is very much theorycrafting. Microing a queen takes too much time, you'd rather be spending in getting that hive a lilttle faster, or in an upgrade rather than a queen, plus ensare needs to be researched = less gas. Plus they get killed freaking ez if they dont cast from the proper range...
On December 20 2006 13:16 Night[Mare] wrote: Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
We've been over this a million times. Ensnare affects attack rate as well as movement rate, and in the case of stimmed rines makes them shoot a lot slower. Go try it out.
Vultures are used TvZ to lay mines against swarm. There is really no other use for them, and you might as well get more rines.
You can only have so much gas. Minerals usually stack up late game for a terran since he's spending his gas on vessels, so if you don't have the gas to run all your facts for tanks too, vults are a nice alternate use for an otherwise idle production facility.
And the mines can be surprisingly good against ling/lurk, or ultra/ling armies. It forces the zerg to do some clearing, or work hydras into his army to minimize mine damage.
EPT
