On December 20 2006 13:16 Night[Mare] wrote: Saying that ensare cancels the effect of stim, is bullshit. Marines actually fire at *almost* the same rate of fire as if they're stimmed. What ensare do nulls is the movement.
Btw queen usage is very much theorycrafting. Microing a queen takes too much time, you'd rather be spending in getting that hive a lilttle faster, or in an upgrade rather than a queen, plus ensare needs to be researched = less gas. Plus they get killed freaking ez if they dont cast from the proper range...
Bleh lemme throw a counter agument!!
Queen usage is not needed at current state of gaming but as game evolve the players will be forced to use queen because even idiots like us could sometimes say "damn a queen would've been awesome there!" Micro queen takes less time than microing defiler iirc, so it's not that much of a stretch. It's more like templar, but instead it ensnares rather than storms. Ensnare costs only 100/100 to make, and it's research doesn't affect the weapon/armour research. Queen costs only 100/100. Totoally worth it when you can use them right.
On December 20 2006 23:08 Night[Mare] wrote: im not saying queens are usless. Just look at eriadors style. its roxx =)
I'm not saying you are saying queens are useless! I'm saying that you shouldn't make queen sounded like THAT much of an extra cost :p
that's the point of my post.. i'm not saying getting 6 queens to replace defilers, but like 1-2 in addition of defilers, queen's nest is "free" as it's needed for hive and 200/200 for 2 queens is not much by that stage of the game and they can make a big difference b4 defilers comes out
same for vultures, i'm not suggesting getting mass vultures instead of mnm, but a few to complement.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures.MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
nah, medics, firebats and vessels don't cost gas at all
seriously, if you actually have the micro to do it, queens (and DA's, for that matter) rock the shit out of your opponent's army...i agree that vultures are not very reliable, though. but gas IS an issue.
Ensnare is really useful for flanking marine tank armies when the terran stims, attacks, then runs back to his tanks. ensnare makes marines sooo damn slow (running) and that is what the use is, not for making them attack slower. zerg has strength in good flanks. its just so damn hard to use ensnare because you have so many more important things. queen AI fucking blows too; they stop and dont cast and shit like that.
I used vultures a lot late game. They are underused because korean gosus rather trust their godly 300 apm M&M control. But for us newbies who have low apm and most of the time more than 1k minerals in late game TvZ, vultures are a great way to spend your money efficiently :
- mines slow the zerg hydra/lurk/swarm attacks, giving your tanks time to deal a good amount of splash damage.
- they can be used to quiclky harass fresh new expos where no sunk are built + they can prevent a crackling raid on an undefended expo of yours without you having to move & stim your main marine force.
- Mines also helps you a lot in knowing where / when the zerg is moving / attacking and if he isn't careful you can always have the pleasure to see 2,3 mines rape 500/400 worth of units :p
For queens, they are rarely used not because they're bad but because defilers are SO godly + they have consume. Not to mention every single bit of gaz counts in ZvT.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels), - suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote: Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures.MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
nah, medics, firebats and vessels don't cost gas at all
seriously, if you actually have the micro to do it, queens (and DA's, for that matter) rock the shit out of your opponent's army...i agree that vultures are not very reliable, though. but gas IS an issue.
yes, but that is what I was saying... Marines medics and firebats are more mineral intensive. So you can afford to make units that are more gas intensive, like Vessels/tanks. Vessels tanks are more flexible and potentially better than vulture in many cases. Vultures good in late game, when zerg army becomes mostly Ultra, lings, lurker, defiler. Vultures is one quick and cheap average counter to swarm.
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote: Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
I am quite open minded, actually. But some units are just too specific, easy counter, or simply costy. Its like suggesting to develop nuke and optic flare and nuke zerg bases!! It is a valid strategy, I have done it... but it wont work every game, and its harder to pull than simply dropping 7 stimmed marines 1 medic.
Its just to my reasoning, queens are not very useful, easy to counter, and relatively expensive. First, theyre only useful when they have mana, you need to research their spells (time + money), and you need to multitask with them (extra work).
Im almost 100% positive that it doesnt slow down wraiths attack neither. Ensnare slows down movement only. Wraiths die pretty fast and easily anyway without the need of ensnare... specially in late game :p Ensnare might be good to give lurkers some extra kills when engaing marine armies. Preventing marines to run away after lurker burrowed, even then I question its benefits... not sure if its worth the cost and extra task.
I wont even go about broodling, parasite. There is much about it. While broodling can be potentially good in some circumtances (tornado terran), by the time it develop and stuff, Z expo might be gone already.
Just try making Queens. You will see how fast and easy it is for terran to counter them. If they dont get irradiated, they probably be shot down by turret or marines before they reached their targets.
i can see mid-game not wanting to use queens for economic purposes, but late game theres no excuse for not having at least 3 around in either zvt or zvp.
when terran heads towards the middle preparing for an attack, get into your normal flank positions. send in a queen and a handful of lings underneath i t (cheap fodder, queens range is kinda shitty) and snare away. circle him up n go. hes immediately gonna try to move cuz he knows swarm is coming, swarm a step ahead of him. youll be hittin urself for not using queens earlier. ensare and plague works awesome too.
12:10 first ensnare 12:45 vultures getting raped 14:15 mines vs lurker under swarm 14:40 another ensnare
just for those who want to skip to the important parts... that's a nice video because it also showed some vulture use in tvz...and i think queens are potientially, given you have the micro, more powerful than vultures can ever be.
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels),
- suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
yes queens are expensive...queens nest + spell research + queen isnt cheap for zerg terran goes wraith just to kill overlords...? that's something new so basically you should get queens to counter wraiths killing your overlords and so happen to have some mutas to kill wraiths after you ensnare? sure sounds feasible
queens are not expensive, cost 100/100 and the nest is needed for hive anyway
On December 21 2006 11:12 dronebabo wrote: this is ridiculous you guys should stop theorycrafting
On December 21 2006 10:59 evanthebouncy~ wrote:
On December 21 2006 08:12 Leath wrote:
On December 20 2006 05:41 lykk wrote: i don't see why they are not used much... queens nest is needed for hive anyway so z always have the option to make them, z can pop out queens much faster than defilers without delaying defilers. parasite vessels and t has to either - research restoration (more micro, research takes time, giving z oppotunity to scourge t's important early vessels),
- suicide vessel (100min 225gas for 75mana) or - ignore it giving z important info (if t leave them aside then again easy target for scourges). parasite dropships to slow down those killer drops.
a big annoying problem for z is t stim their marines and qickly kill some of z's army before they comes within melee distance then run away fast with stim still in effect. ensnare solves the problem. z can get ensnare much faster than swarm and it's almost as effective, 75 mana is cheap plus it only needs to be cast once to be effective. so 2-3 queens is more than enough. later when z get the ensnare + swarm combo it becomes very hard for t. broodling is good vs tanks but 150 mana means z needs more queens, but still it's an option. t can irridate queens but queen is cheaper than both lurker and defiler so z still gets a good deal.
as for vultures they are just sooooo cheap, after a fast 100/100 research t gets a unit that rapes ling/drone and 3 mines for 75min0gas. if a vulture does nothing but gets a hydra with a mine b4 it dies, t would be in the money. early game when z has slow lords mines can totally waste lurker/ling, as z is likely to be running around the map positioning his troops for flank/pincer, z could get unlucky and run a bunch of units into mines making the manevour counter productive. 1 factory pumping vults will give t plenty of mines early game and will not affect mnm numbers too much. the vults themselves can be used to scout, outflank lings and raid z expasions.
so why are these units not used that much in this mu? glad to hear your comments
Queens suck. They are expensive, and cumbersome to use. Ensnare blows even more. It only affected stim attack rate by a little, not other units attack rate. Its DEFINETLY not as useful as Swarm :p Restoration is no much trouble for terran, I think. At the point Zerg gets a queen with 75 mana, Terran academy wont be researching anything, and its readily availiable to get the restoration. Only unit hard to restore might be a sneaky SCV. Vessels easy to find.
Vultures are not very reliable. They kill once with their mines, but once the path is cleared, the provide almost no defense. The main problem is that most player will rather have 3 extra marines rather than a vulture early game, since marines can fight pretty much all of the zerg arsenal in early game, and vults will have problems with mutas, and hydras. Also, players having one factory will rather produces tank out it, rather than vultures. MnM are not gas intensive, so the gas for tanks is not much of a problem
Man you totoally jumped on the wrong badnwagon. Queens don't suck, they cost 100/100 each and you say they're expensive? Oh and they don't effect other unit's attack rate? How about wraith? U know late game terran go wraith to rape your overlord? Now imagine you have one muthafucking bad ass queen and ensnare those stupid wraiths and fuck them over w/ ur mutas. Now wouldn't that be a good feeling! Useless huh? Can' believe anyone's this short sighted... One of the greatest asset of a good player is to keep his options open and man did you just shut your's off entirely. Look at boxer! "Hey dude nono 2 tank+dropship vs 3 dragoons? Ur NUTS" but boxer didn't turn down that option and look what all the boxer wannabies in the world is doing now! Get more open my friend.
yes queens are expensive...queens nest + spell research + queen isnt cheap for zerg terran goes wraith just to kill overlords...? that's something new so basically you should get queens to counter wraiths killing your overlords and so happen to have some mutas to kill wraiths after you ensnare? sure sounds feasible
queens are not expensive, cost 100/100 and the nest is needed for hive anyway
You're missing the point dronebabo is making there. You're whole strategy has to hinge on a bunch of assumptions if you're playing a queen strat. You have to be playing a super fast hive, otherwise the queen and ensnare won't be ready quickly enough.
And the cost of the nest + queen + ensnare research is nothing to scoff at that early in the game.
So get one for late game. Even without ensnare, you can annoy him with parasites. 100/100 is nothing lategame, unless it's a base killing race or something.
EPT
