EPTill just counter you with DA from the left of darktem after harassing you
feedback ftw!
(its happened.. me vs fakesteve.. DA > Queen)
Viability of Queens. - Page 3
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Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
ill just counter you with DA from the left of darktem after harassing you feedback ftw! (its happened.. me vs fakesteve.. DA > Queen) | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
maybe it's easier in a LAN environment though. and again I don't think queens are really really viable zvp vs sair reaver. getting them never hurts tho but it'll rarely be gamewinning, unlike zvt. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9944 Posts
On August 29 2006 17:28 Liquid`Drone wrote: you ALWAYS have lurkers if you have queens. im not gonna bring my queens near his units to ensnare if im not planning on attacking soon (in which case lurkers will be just as near as the queens) and if im not planning on ensnaring anytime soon, he'll have to go on an irradiate raid to get to my queens, in which case lurkers are just as close. and lurkers cost more than queens. sure irradiate kills queens but you should never object to it happening because every time he irradiates a queen, he spends 1 irradiate killing 100/100 instead of 125/125 or 50/150. unless you're going hydras in which case he could spend the mana on them instead, but then again, ensnare and hydras don't mix all that nicely against terran. it's a supplement for lurk ling defilers and ultras. and the reason why zergs have not all started building queens is that it's still very very possible to win without them. before zergs started building defilers, the game had evolved to a point where zergs couldn't really beat the common terran strategies at that point without them. once zergs stop being able to win (if that ever happens), they'll have to revamp their game and try new things, which would lead them to discovering how helpful the queen is. I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =] well I think Chojja used them in 2 pro ZvT's since you played in WWI :D I guess he tried practicing them | ||
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ygor
Slovakia246 Posts
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MyLittlePwny
Canada171 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Think about this: let's say you are playing ZvT. I think it goes without saying that you need lurkers if you are going to get queens, because there's really not much of a point otherwise. I've seen Jju ensnare wraiths of Oov when Jju went muta, but that's a pretty rare circumstance, and I believe firmly that the point of the ensnare was not just to slow down the wraiths, but also to prevent them from cloaking (since you see ensnared cloaked units). So aside from that rare circumstance, you're going to have lurkers with your queens. Now consider that you need a critical mass of lurkers to really be effective. If you keep your lurker count too low, you're going to get overrun by Terran's who have art micro as they will manage to pick off too many lurkers before you even get your chance to burrow. So obviously, fast teching queens isn't the most viable strategy on the top level in most circumstances. So consider when a progamer would want to get queens. At this point he's probably got that nice +1 carapace kicking in for his lurkers and he's grabbing or already grabbed that third gas. The thing is though, that queen's nest enables him to tech hive, and waiting just a little longer he will get defilers, which are both more micro intensive than queens and more effective, so it's hard to use both of them effectively and defilers are the better choice, so automatically defilers get chosen. Edit: the text below with a strike through was on the spot theory crafting, and the more I think about, the more I question my own words. I'm leaving it up so people can read it, but understand I am no longer feeling so confident in it. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
Also ensnare is better for air than ground. But a common response is surely queen->DA, and DA gives a better strategical options than queen in ZvP. Most power comes from storm/reaver and slowed templars/reavers are as good as the normal ones. Broodlings aren't very cost effective. So the hidden potential lies vs Terran probably, while Toss has a hidden potential vs Zerg(still a lot of underused units DA's, Arbiters, a rising tendency of lategame reaver usage...) Terran is not doomed yet, ghosts have a lot of potential vs Toss. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
much, much better. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2932 Posts
queens are annoying. but still getting more lurkers or swarm is a bit more annoying. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On August 30 2006 08:54 Liquid`Drone wrote: queens are much better against SK terrans than against tank heavy terrans. much, much better. What about irrad? Against tanks it seems like broodling is not a bad bet because not only do you kill a tnak free, but all the other tanks fire at the broodlings and kill each other with splash. And while ensnare is better against marines than tanks for sure, the reduced firing rate should help you get your lurkers into position more easily, ripping his tank lines. Maybe that one calls for some experimentation though. | ||
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humblegar
Norway883 Posts
On August 30 2006 01:53 Olmer wrote: Are you guys sure that Spawn Broodlings doesn't affect Reavers? I was quite sure it does. ..... ... . All ground units except these 4 can be broodlinged: - Probe - Reaver - Archon - Dark Archon Another common mistake is to think that ultras cannot be broodlinged, but they can. Even the broodling can be broodlinged. | ||
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WhizKid77
China682 Posts
seems like queen usage just isn't fully developed yet i used to parasite and burrow a lot in the bgh days, annoyed the hell out of my friends  | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
On August 30 2006 12:14 Mortality wrote: What about irrad? Against tanks it seems like broodling is not a bad bet because not only do you kill a tnak free, but all the other tanks fire at the broodlings and kill each other with splash. And while ensnare is better against marines than tanks for sure, the reduced firing rate should help you get your lurkers into position more easily, ripping his tank lines. Maybe that one calls for some experimentation though. like I already said, it's not a problem if he irradiates your queens. if he did not irradiate the queen he would irradiate a defiler or lurker instead, both being more expensive. and it's also not a problem like it is with defilers, how they're often unable to throw their spell after getting irradiated. the queen is too fast for that. not to mention that ensnare is almost as good a counter to irradiate raids as plague is, you'll always manage to scourge the retreating vessels.. ensnare doesnt help much vs sieged tanks (well unless you also swarm them and attack with lurker ling in which case he will be less likely to be able to retreat), but it's mostly a hard counter to m&m micro against lurker/ling/swarm. basically it's a counter to mobility and tanks are already quite immobile while the vessel is only as strong as it is because it flies and is able to do hit n runs which ensnare to a large degree negates. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
( compared to vessels and ht's ) thought about leaving this part away.. :p | ||
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DeathBlow
Romania117 Posts
Let's imagine ZvP . The zerg manage to parasite a shuttle. A smart protoss will make a few hallucinations of a clean shuttle and a corsair and send the hallucinations along with the parasited shuttle in a kamikaze fake attack while his real force will attack somewere else. (Protoss will not make the halucinations in the viewing range of parasited shuttle , ofcours ). And this is just one example of "an eye for an eye" scenario | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28553 Posts
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Empyrean
16950 Posts
On August 30 2006 14:04 DeathBlow wrote: Parasite can be a pain in the ass . A smart player will use parasited unit in his advantage . Let's imagine ZvP . The zerg manage to parasite a shuttle. A smart protoss will make a few hallucinations of a clean shuttle and a corsair and send the hallucinations along with the parasited shuttle in a kamikaze fake attack while his real force will attack somewere else. (Protoss will not make the halucinations in the viewing range of parasited shuttle , ofcours ). And this is just one example of "an eye for an eye" scenario This is also an example of a "never going to happen" scenario. | ||
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DeathBlow
Romania117 Posts
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 30 2006 15:38 DeathBlow wrote: Yeah . I'v noticed that all people play standard this days . Nobody try to get a place on "PP" anymore . PP stands for "Pimpest" Plays, not PatheticallyDumbAndTimeConsuminglyUseless Plays. Honestly, it's a good idea, but only in theory. You're the kind of player that thinks that you should leave a queen over the nat cliff to ensnare the workers from time to time. There's nothing wrong with it, but no one will ever do it because the time wasted doing that is far more valuable. People keep forgetting that Time is a resource just like Minerals and Gas. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
On August 30 2006 17:30 GrandInquisitor wrote: PP stands for "Pimpest" Plays, not PatheticallyDumbAndTimeConsuminglyUseless Plays. Honestly, it's a good idea, but only in theory. You're the kind of player that thinks that you should leave a queen over the nat cliff to ensnare the workers from time to time. There's nothing wrong with it, but no one will ever do it because the time wasted doing that is far more valuable. People keep forgetting that Time is a resource just like Minerals and Gas. OMFG BUT RINES LESS EFFECTIVE LOLOL1!!11 | ||
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