also part of the worth of the irradiate is that they are stopping the spells from the unit, defilers arent incredibly expensive either but every time T takes one out it is a decent setback for the Z because you cant just have 10 sitting around on backup, so you gotta bring in some new ones and the process takes a while.

Same thing but moreso with queens.

this thread does make me want to use queens though for some reason. ; ]

tKd_

United States2916 Posts

August 29 2006 09:10 GMT

#22

I honestly think queens have the largest potential in zvp where you can parasite and spawn broodling templar in late game, as I don't want my lings getting owned so easily, which only leaves ultras =/. I've also thought about the fact that irradiating queens saves you 25/25 if you consider the lurker being irradiated prior to queens. There was a point where I used them a lot, and I still should. This thread comes up alot but I rarely see reps with severe queen use.

Drowsy

United States4876 Posts

August 29 2006 09:38 GMT

#23

On August 29 2006 18:10 tKd_ wrote:
I honestly think queens have the largest potential in zvp where you can parasite and spawn broodling templar in late game, as I don't want my lings getting owned so easily, which only leaves ultras =/. I've also thought about the fact that irradiating queens saves you 25/25 if you consider the lurker being irradiated prior to queens. There was a point where I used them a lot, and I still should. This thread comes up alot but I rarely see reps with severe queen use.

Yes, particularly in long games involving both reavers and templars, if more tosses started using reavers in addition to their templars, I think zergs would use broodling zvp.

ahk-gosu

Korea (South)2099 Posts

August 29 2006 09:56 GMT

#24

queens have high mana cost spells that wont necessarily be effective.

unlike defilers, they cannot consume units for energy so you have to wait.

only real time ive used the queen is when i went lurker ling and command centers were lifted. i used to infest and not for its spells.

parasite has huge potential in zvp imo. parasite on archons or shuttles is awesome.

tKd_

United States2916 Posts

August 29 2006 10:31 GMT

#25

lol your icon is a queen. anyways parasite and ensnare is 75 which equals a psionic storm, so its definitely waitable. broodling however is twice that, which sucks.

skindzer

Chile5114 Posts

August 29 2006 10:51 GMT

#26

Ensnare only slow donws the attack speed of certain units and not in the same degree.

GrandInquisitor

New York City13113 Posts

August 29 2006 11:49 GMT

#27

On August 29 2006 19:51 skindzer wrote:
Ensnare only slow donws the attack speed of certain units and not in the same degree.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41799#14

It slows attack speed of almost all units.

Here's the stats: http://p200.ezboard.com/ftsunamisstrategyforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=222.topic

From that topic (someone REALLY REALLY needs to do some independent verification):

===

I did, as promised, some tests to calculate the %decrease in fire rate of ensnaire. Since zerg and toss have regeneration and teran buildings tend to die faster when at red HP i used tanks for ground damage and BC's or vessels for air damage. Before giving the results(which are very interesting and strange) i wanna state that they came from experiments and because of that may not be 100% precise.
OK, enough with the silly introduction, let the numbers talk!!!!!!!

Zerg Units
-Lings 15% decrease
-Hydras 15% decrease
-Mutes 15% decrease (quite boring huh?)
-Ultras UNCHAGED!!!! Yes u read right. Ensnaire does not affect ultras.
-Cracklings 25% decrease

Terran Units
-Marines 17% decrease
-Stimmed Marines 23% decrease (though other tests suggests it's more of 45-50%, negating stim entirely)
-Golies UNCHANGED BOTH AIR AND GROUND. So next time dont be surprised if your lings get raped of ensnaired gollies
-Wraith 16% decrease
-BCs air 16%....BCs ground 4%. Pretty strange but i did this many times and the results were the same. Ensnaire has different effect on air and ground BCs attack!!!!
-Valks 18-20% decrease.
-I left firebats for the end because they are so hard to calculate. The trick is to have the tanks that take the damage at exactly the same angle towards firebats fire. If tanks are at 45 angle towards firebat fire they take more damage for some reason compared to 90 or 0 angle. Anyway, all things considered equal ensnaire decreases firebat rate by 29%. That's the largest decrease of all!!!

Toss Units
-Zealots 16% decrease
-Goons air 14%, Goons ground 11% decrease. Pretty strange again but that's what i found, period.
-Archon air 20%, Archon ground 3% decrease. What can i say people, hope u correct me.
-Dts 22% decrease
-Carriers UNCHANGED. When ensnairing carriers directly, fire rate doesn't decrease. Then i tried to ensnaire some interceptors. I didn't notice any change either. That gave me much grieve!!!!!
-Sairs 12% decrease
-Scout air 16% decrease. Forgot to test ground.

I'd like to add that guradian's decrease is about 11% while (to my great dissapointment) siege tanks and reavers are not affected.

Lurker cooldown IS affected by ensnaire, but you have to ensnaire it while it is above the ground first in order to take affect. Ensnaring a burrowed lurker even though detected does nothing to its cooldown.

Using the terran tank as a target, I allowed the ensnared lurker to get the first hit, and the unensnared lurker to attack right after, the result being the unensnared lurker winning and the ensnared lurker's tank having 17 hp left at the time the first tank was destroyed.

I just woke up, so maybe my numbers are off but it would be around 11% decrease.

red.venom

United States4651 Posts

August 29 2006 12:42 GMT

#28

Why is this so undocumented then? Im so confused by these results.

iNcontroL

USA29055 Posts

August 29 2006 13:40 GMT

#29

In a couple games where i was goofing around i went for a fast queen / broodling rush. They tank rushed in a couple of those games and the fucking queen build SLAUGHTERED it, i plucked 3 of his tanks off right off the bat and was able to transition to ling/lurk and eventual hive just as easy. This was due to the relative cheapness of queens (100/100 for broodling) and 125/100 for a queen? It got me thinking, i usually make a point to make 1-2 queens in games where im not in an absolute scramble for economy... the arguement against them is when your scrambling to lock down that essential 3rd gas expo or you are in a scrap from high pressure the precious resources going into a queen and the MANDATORY research to make them do anything + mana regen = differance between win and lose. In those situations the extra lurker or 2 could be the game whereas the temporary slowed shooting rate simply wont be cost effective. In large scale battles or if YOU are on the offense it is of course worth it as it benefits you more so on the offense. But in situations where the pressure is put on you i believe it more intelligent to invest in combat units over support units except of course the defiler which has arguably the most powerful spellin the game.

Liquid`Drone

Norway28707 Posts

August 29 2006 14:13 GMT

#30

100/100 for queen

and parasite is really good vs protoss yeah
broodling is good for stalemate situations but not otherwise

iNcontroL

USA29055 Posts

August 29 2006 14:19 GMT

#31

I think parasite is nice no matter what, parasiting the sci cloud is nice until they research the heal spell.

But yeah vs protoss its especially effective if you can get an archon or shuttle as they are usually relunctant to alienate them allowing you to see their movement or sacrifice a very nice unit (essentially a broodling).

I seriously think broodling has viability vs tanks, stalemate or not. If the T is going mass tanks like 2-3 facts having a force of 4-5 Queens can allow you to keep that under control.

Liquid`Drone

Norway28707 Posts

August 29 2006 14:24 GMT

#32

problem with broodling is if you broodling and then your queen dies while it's throwing the spell. happens surprisingly often and for some reason it has no effect then. (unlike parasite and ensnare)

and yeah parasite can be nice vs terran too, on vessels
ive even encountered really good terrans who killed their parasited vessels instead of restoring them :'(

Manifesto7

Osaka27154 Posts

August 29 2006 14:25 GMT

#33

On August 29 2006 17:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =]

totally 100% agree. ChoJJa is the only gamer I see using queens effectively in ZvT on a pro level. Other gamers only use them when the game is over or sometimes in ZvP.

I also agree with the thought that they arent used because zergs can win without them. Gosh arent we smart drone?

All of this leads me to believe that Zerg has the most potential left in their race, while terran is pretty much tapped and protoss lies somewhere in the middle (as a result of having to try constantly try new things always and haveing kang min).

red.venom

United States4651 Posts

August 29 2006 14:47 GMT

#34

New slogan..

Zerg: Unlock the Potential

Liquid`Drone

Norway28707 Posts

August 29 2006 14:50 GMT

#35

ive been saying zerg has most potential for years
mostly cause I've seen them win 50%+ without queens

FirstProbe

1206 Posts

August 29 2006 15:16 GMT

#36

just on another note, why does a burning building, thats infested, regain hitpoints? Its burning!!!!!! insane...

red.venom

United States4651 Posts

August 29 2006 15:25 GMT

#37

Cuz its a Zerg unit and presumably is more organic material than it is not. Also from a gameplay standpoint, Zerg would have no way to repair it, so it would be pretty stupid to have a building that automatically dies when it gets below 400hp or w/e.

Also I tested out some queen shit earlier, as far as I could tell it seemed to slow all attacking units I tried it on by about 20%(Which would be 40% for stimmed marines technically). Im amazed.

Olmer

Poland320 Posts

August 29 2006 16:53 GMT

#38

Are you guys sure that Spawn Broodlings doesn't affect Reavers? I was quite sure it does. And what exactly is the cost of the queen? 100/100 ?? That's imba for me. You tend to compare Spawn Broodlings to storm and say "storm kills more and costs 2x less". Ok, it's true, but templar is ground unit and SLOW unit what means you'll lose a LOT of them to whatever attacks them - even vults. Queen is FAST, FLYING and has big range. You can accumulate huge amount of them cause they survive a lot. And if Spawn Broodlings affects the Reaver - then it's a disaster. Protoss unloads his reavers (protected by sairs) nearby zerg's expo and they get killed from afaaaar. <shivers> I don't like it at all. Not mentioning slowing the fleeing protoss army. Feedback would be an effective counter since queen's hp is only 120, but I can't imagine anyone (even pro) noticing queen before it strikes, and killing it before it retreats (the range of Spawn Broodlings is just too great).

I'm not zerg player and I don't play a lot at all, so please correct me if I'm wrong (maybe some patch made range of Spawn Broodlings smaller?).

Liquid`Drone

Norway28707 Posts

August 29 2006 16:55 GMT

#39

yes I am 100% certain spawn broodling does not affect reavers
and it's 100/100
and it is definitely not too expensive

SuperJongMan

Jamaica11586 Posts

August 29 2006 18:01 GMT

#40

I'm more interested in the ensnare and attack rate effect...
That is actually troublesome for me to hear T.T
So overall, about a 15% decrease in attack rate for ensnare?
And certain units like DTs,Stims,Crax are a little more effected and the really pricey units are left more alone like Archons, BCS, Ultras, Carrier/Reavers?
Hmm... neat.