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16968 Posts
So I've been doing some more theorycrafting on the toilet. I usually read back issues of Chess Life (that I used to get when I was still a member), but sometimes I just get bored. Here goes.
I was wondering why you don't see Queens more often in Zerg vs. anything. With a few notable exceptions (eri and tsunami are all I can name at the moment), I don't think any high level Zerg players get queens as part of their standard play, if at all. But Queens are amazingly effective units. For a meager cost and development through standard Zerg play, Queens can be one of the most efficient and game-deciding units available to the Zerg.
Queens, first of all, are cheap. They have a pretty low cost, though if you mass them they can be a little gas heavy. However, mass queens really isn't necessary, and just having a few (six or more) would make a gigantic difference in your efficiency. The Queen tech building is gotten fairly consistently in Zerg play, unless you want to stick with Lair tech for the whole game (in which case you most likely will lose). Queen spells don't take all that long to research and they aren't ridiculously expensive either. Even if you get your Queen's Nest early, in the mid game Queens can also be used effectively and their benefit greatly outweighs the cost.
Ensnare is probably the most useful Queen spell. It slows both movement speed and attack rate for units, often bringing fast-attacking units (Stimmed Marines) down to a more managable speed. It also reduces movement speed, and makes flanking a whole lot easier. I believe Ensnare would be very effective in match ups such as ZvP, as Zealots would be slowed, Dragoons would hardly attack at all, and Archons would be pretty much useless with their Reaver-like speed and horrendously slow attack rate under Ensnare. Ensnare can also be used in ZvZ battles, and I believe that a Queen is worth the cost of a few mutas if you get an Ensnare on a Mutalisk clump. It's obviously not wise to just rush Queens, but I think eventually they'd be pretty useful in ZvZ as well.
Parasite is another often overlooked skill that can be invaluable to the game. It's basically a 75 mana cost map hack, being able to see what any Parasited unit sees. You can Parasite high-value units such as Templar, Shuttles, Archons, Science Vessels, etc., and then you'll be able to track its movement, the army's movement, or force the opponent to waste a unit by suiciding, restoring (yeah, I know, I suppose it's a counter), or splitting his forces. Parasite can also be used on units such as patrolling scouters, as most players don't ever bother to check on their unit, just if any new Zerg expansions popped up or not. Additionally, if they expand there, you won't have to suicide an Overlord to scout it. Most players don't check their scouts anyway.
Parasite can also be used on their workers, and it's actually pretty effective as most players never bother to check on their workers. You can not only get a glimpse of their tech, but if they transfer the workers to any other expo you can get a look at that expo's location and defense as well. You can also Parasite critters, and most players don't check critters either. I know most versions of Luna come with Kakaru, and if you can get the vision of Kakaru, you basically have a mobile scout that most players won't even bother with.
The last Queen spell, Spawn Broodling, can also be used to turn the tides of a major battle. You could Broodling a Tank sieging one of your expos, so you can flank with your Zerglings/Lurkers/Ultralisks/Whatever more easily as you defend it. The Terran will also have to wait for another Tank before trying to break the Sunkens. Broodling is also effective on Templar (though it doesn't work on Archons, Dark Archons or Reavers), killing the Templar before it has a chance to do anything. If you previously Parasited smoething close to the Templar, you can just issue the command and the Templar will die, as Spawn Broodling has an obscenely long range (I believe it's the same as Yamato). Broodling also spawns two weakass units that can do lots of damage if they're splashed. If, for example, you decide to attack a Terran army head on and Broodling a Tank or Medic or whatever before hand, the Tanks immediately attack and the resulting splash can do a decent amount of damage before you even engage.
Any thoughts?
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16968 Posts
Crap, somehow this got posted in the middle of a sentence. I'm not even half done. Please wait for my edit.
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ensnare is not supposed to slow attack speed (and doesn't for the most part).
it does, however, effect a few units.
stimmed marines attack speed are slightly reduced. Theres a few more (but thats the only one i remember)
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So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On August 29 2006 14:06 OverTheUnder wrote:
So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
Thou canst resist thou pink shirt!!
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On August 29 2006 14:06 OverTheUnder wrote:
So when exactly did Eri get to you? YOUR STRONGER THAN THIS!!!>_<
Haha, indeed.
I did use queens but I found it too hard to effectivl manage them to a point of being useful with all my other units T_T
maybe when i'm beter :D
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ughh... eri already explained this perfectly. ZVT, most zergs play 3 hatch muta into lurker/ling/defiler or hydra lurk. Queens early on are not good for this type of play, but they're alright after you've secured a third or 4th gas, though nobody will probably use them since we just want to get 234908 gas and spend it all on ultra.
In the way eri plays, Low econ han-bang defiler, queens are very very good early on. One of the big weaknesses of low econ defiler type strats is that if you get contained and can't break it very fast, the terran has time to prepare for very quick defilers. Queens help solve this problem by giving your lurk/ling some leverage over his mnm, making it hard for him to simply stim and run back and make you burrow and re-burrow your lurkers 30 times before they get to his base. Once you've gotten map control with queen/lurker ling, you can march a defiler up to him and start doing damage.
In short, queens= good supplement to any sort of low economy zerg play. Bat.Jifeng has some games of him using queens in "standard" 3 hatch economy play. ZVP I'm not so sure about, and zvz there is no way in hell I'd buy a queen unless I was already teching hive off of 3 gas.
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ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit.
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ensnare slows the effect of stim packs anyone who has eyes can see that
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Ensere removes the effect of stim.
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On August 29 2006 14:40 red.venom wrote:
ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit.
3 years ago defilers were not seen very often, if ever.
now they are mainstream.
back then, people said 'no one uses defilers for a reason'. The masses seem to have changed their mind.
i use queens all the time. They take some practice, but they're very effective.
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There was that post a long while back that said that ensnare reduces stimmed marine attack rate to 120% of normal, or slightly faster than the usual attack rate rather than twice as fast as the usual attack rate. Most units don't fire much slower with ensnare (~15% was it?) or not any slower at all. The problem is the game flow. Also, ensnare really does less than you might think because enemy armies aren't necessarily going to be clumped nicely for you to hit. It takes several extra clicks to use Queens on top of your usual unit mix, so there's a speed issue even for the fastest player--maybe getting a better flank would've helped as much as getting in an ensnare on 2/5 of the enemy troops. But yes, there's no reason not to get ensnare once you've gotten hive tech working in zvp, so you can hit and run expos better (enemy troops would have worse response time in defending) and generally benefit slightly in straight-up combat. Yes, zvt ensnare works well too, in the situations already discussed.
Parasite gives scouting, but you're playing as zerg. Speed overlords with shift-clicking to spread through the map gives you great scouting anyway in situations where the enemy isn't trying to get air control. And it's not like you can control where the Kakaru moves, right? Granted, parasite is good to use in zvp vs. sair/reaver (an example where the enemy has air control), but players already get queens for ensnare against that.
Spawn broodling just costs 150 mana. It ain't no irradiate, although it has rare uses.
Infesting CCs is equivalent to using the taunt move in a fighter (gosu stuff), plus it actually has uses. But you didn't mention that.
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Norway28614 Posts
I always thought using queens was easy as hell
easiest spellcaster in the game imo
ensnare STICKS to whatever unit you throw it at, so unlike storm you don't need to anticipate where the units are moving. you just press e and then left mouseclick on the unit in the middle.
in addition the queen is flying thus you never have to take account for it getting blocked by other units (like defilers can sometimes get when you're trying to swarm. or templars with storm. )
maybe it's hard to keep track of where they are
but I never had that problem as I always hotkeyed queens to 0. 
and drowsy is pretty much correct. I played a zvt style of play where queens helped me tremendously. with other styles of play you also benefit greatly later on, but if you're doing a standard 3 hatch muta into lurker ling kind of thing, you actually have more problems spending 400 gas on getting fast queen than I did with my hiverush.
also broodling is almost useless (cept for stalemates pretty much but terran wins that due to irradiate anyway), and you don't need more than 2-3 queens.
and in zvp they're really good if you have lings vs goons and he tries running or you have hydra vs zealot archon and he tries running
if you're up against a zealot goon archon templar force and you don't have enough units to beat the force in the first place, ensnare doesn't help that much.
still enough to spend 300/300 on it though. for sure. but it'll very rarely be gamedeciding. (unlike zvt where I would often win because of ensnare. )
however, it's really, really great vs sair/reaver (and carriers) but once again it only really helps if you have enough units to beat his units. if he can fight it out then it's not a big deal. but if you don't have ensnare and you manage to flank his corsairs with mutas and he doesnt have enough sairs to beat them, normally he can just retreat to cannons and try again later and you gained nothing but with ensnare you can actually kill all his units then. vs sair reaver it can often be gamedeciding :O
and infest is fucking AWESOME. especially if people don't know you're the kind of guy who likes to infest. (eventually against players I knew I only really got to infest command centres I would otherwise have killed cause every time a cc started burning they immediately started repairing just cause it was me ) but when I played vs unknown nonkoreans I could like come in with a queen 2 minutes after a battle and take the cc cause they just didn't care about it having 600 hp
but I won a lot of games with infest as well
ok there goes first post in strat forum in a very long time
zoz
and zvz they're really great in theory but usually there isnt any point in the game where you can spend 400 gas on 2 queens queens nest and ensnare.
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Norway28614 Posts
and what the fuck red.venom
if your opponent chooses to irradiate your queen instead of your lurker or defiler, you're benefitting from it because it costs less than both the lurker and the defiler. what the fuck kind of "very high gain" is that.
and stimmed rines have their rate of fire decreased a very significant amount. and ensnared vessels are easily scourged. as are ensnared dropships.
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Drone, what do you think about queens zvz? Obviously, zvz is very sensitive and investing in queens too early is going to kill you pretty fast, but are they worth getting once both sides have gotten 3 gases or should you just save the gas for more devourers/guards/defilers?
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Norway28614 Posts
if you have a) defilers or b) enough units to kill his units if they are not next to his spore colonies despite spending 300/300 for 2 queens and ensnare, then queens are awesome. in particular because it essentially makes it impossible for him to hitnrun.
defilers because if you manage to both plague and ensnare his mutas at the same time, they're all dead. if you only plague them, not necessarily as he can just run away.
and like if both of you have 30 mutas and hive then getting 2 queens and ensnare will make a bigger difference than 3 more mutas in a muta vs muta battle. but it's pretty delicate :O
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
You know what?
There's no reason not to. It's the same reason DA's aren't used as often as they should, and why so many ZvP games aren't won early on simply because it never occurred to the Z to research burrow. The only reason people don't use them is because they're so ingrained that 12 hatch expo lurk/ling/fast defiler is the only way to play ZvT (for example) that they forget about queens. They're not used to playing with queens, they don't feel comfortable, so they don't use them.
I hate it.
But I do love playing all-in 4match muta/ling/queen in ZvT.
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On August 29 2006 15:26 Teroru wrote:Show nested quote +On August 29 2006 14:40 red.venom wrote:
ok so your post seems to talk about how awesome queens are but really doesnt talk about how hard they are to tactically apply during a game, or how getting them costs your unit numbers slightly(Sort of, its actually a decent hit in the phase of the game where they would be useful which is the late midgame when a P or T would usually attack the first time)...
Broodling requires too much mana to usually be timed easily, parasite is easily countered by the player putting the unit in a random spot on the map, killing it if its cheap or just running it out to scout and sacrifice. Ensnare is good but doesnt slow attack rate, hits your own units, is hard to aim at moving units. TBH im not sure that it counters stim either, I recall the Tsunami experiment but that seemed far from scientific. And on top of that Queens are also very weak, they die in a small amount of hits from just about anything and T can just irradiate them for a great gain.
Im not saying they are useless or without a place(They are consistantly useful vs Sair/Reaver for instance), but honestly its one of the rarest things in the game to see good queen usage and I dont think its just because all Zerg players suck or havent tried hard enough. Even players who do use them to some effect tend to have the element of surprise on their side with the unit. 3 years ago defilers were not seen very often, if ever. now they are mainstream. back then, people said 'no one uses defilers for a reason'. The masses seem to have changed their mind. i use queens all the time. They take some practice, but they're very effective.
ok I can see where you are coming from. However back then I used defilers often and always thought they were extremely effective. Queens have always been a unit that has trouble fitting into the 1:1 game whereas defilers used to be considered an extremely late game unit and have now become so useful that you can see them pretty early and nonstop from then on. Maybe the abilities of the players just need to rise to another level to enjoy queen use on the regular.
On August 29 2006 15:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
and what the fuck red.venom
if your opponent chooses to irradiate your queen instead of your lurker or defiler, you're benefitting from it because it costs less than both the lurker and the defiler. what the fuck kind of "very high gain" is that.
and stimmed rines have their rate of fire decreased a very significant amount. and ensnared vessels are easily scourged. as are ensnared dropships.
Fair enough, its not a HIGH gain then. Its still 100/100 for free and takes away the initiative you may have from the threat of queens ensnaring shit. I wasnt really picturing a situation where you have defilers and queens though, but yes the defiler would be a higher priority target in that case.
Im glad queens counter stim but really the "Are queens the next big thing?" discussion has gone on for quite some time and I guess im just skeptical.
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Drone is very fiesty and adamant about his queens.
Do not fuck with him.
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Norway28614 Posts
you ALWAYS have lurkers if you have queens. im not gonna bring my queens near his units to ensnare if im not planning on attacking soon (in which case lurkers will be just as near as the queens) and if im not planning on ensnaring anytime soon, he'll have to go on an irradiate raid to get to my queens, in which case lurkers are just as close.
and lurkers cost more than queens.
sure irradiate kills queens but you should never object to it happening because every time he irradiates a queen, he spends 1 irradiate killing 100/100 instead of 125/125 or 50/150.
unless you're going hydras in which case he could spend the mana on them instead, but then again, ensnare and hydras don't mix all that nicely against terran. it's a supplement for lurk ling defilers and ultras.
and the reason why zergs have not all started building queens is that it's still very very possible to win without them. before zergs started building defilers, the game had evolved to a point where zergs couldn't really beat the common terran strategies at that point without them. once zergs stop being able to win (if that ever happens), they'll have to revamp their game and try new things, which would lead them to discovering how helpful the queen is. I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =]
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also part of the worth of the irradiate is that they are stopping the spells from the unit, defilers arent incredibly expensive either but every time T takes one out it is a decent setback for the Z because you cant just have 10 sitting around on backup, so you gotta bring in some new ones and the process takes a while.
Same thing but moreso with queens.
this thread does make me want to use queens though for some reason. ; ]
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I honestly think queens have the largest potential in zvp where you can parasite and spawn broodling templar in late game, as I don't want my lings getting owned so easily, which only leaves ultras =/. I've also thought about the fact that irradiating queens saves you 25/25 if you consider the lurker being irradiated prior to queens. There was a point where I used them a lot, and I still should. This thread comes up alot but I rarely see reps with severe queen use.
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On August 29 2006 18:10 tKd_ wrote:
I honestly think queens have the largest potential in zvp where you can parasite and spawn broodling templar in late game, as I don't want my lings getting owned so easily, which only leaves ultras =/. I've also thought about the fact that irradiating queens saves you 25/25 if you consider the lurker being irradiated prior to queens. There was a point where I used them a lot, and I still should. This thread comes up alot but I rarely see reps with severe queen use.
Yes, particularly in long games involving both reavers and templars, if more tosses started using reavers in addition to their templars, I think zergs would use broodling zvp.
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queens have high mana cost spells that wont necessarily be effective.
unlike defilers, they cannot consume units for energy so you have to wait.
only real time ive used the queen is when i went lurker ling and command centers were lifted. i used to infest and not for its spells.
parasite has huge potential in zvp imo. parasite on archons or shuttles is awesome.
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lol your icon is a queen. anyways parasite and ensnare is 75 which equals a psionic storm, so its definitely waitable. broodling however is twice that, which sucks.
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Ensnare only slow donws the attack speed of certain units and not in the same degree.
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 29 2006 19:51 skindzer wrote:
Ensnare only slow donws the attack speed of certain units and not in the same degree.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=41799#14
It slows attack speed of almost all units.
Here's the stats: http://p200.ezboard.com/ftsunamisstrategyforumfrm1.showMessage?topicID=222.topic
From that topic (someone REALLY REALLY needs to do some independent verification):
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I did, as promised, some tests to calculate the %decrease in fire rate of ensnaire. Since zerg and toss have regeneration and teran buildings tend to die faster when at red HP i used tanks for ground damage and BC's or vessels for air damage. Before giving the results(which are very interesting and strange) i wanna state that they came from experiments and because of that may not be 100% precise.
OK, enough with the silly introduction, let the numbers talk!!!!!!!
Zerg Units
-Lings 15% decrease
-Hydras 15% decrease
-Mutes 15% decrease (quite boring huh?)
-Ultras UNCHAGED!!!! Yes u read right. Ensnaire does not affect ultras.
-Cracklings 25% decrease
Terran Units
-Marines 17% decrease
-Stimmed Marines 23% decrease (though other tests suggests it's more of 45-50%, negating stim entirely)
-Golies UNCHANGED BOTH AIR AND GROUND. So next time dont be surprised if your lings get raped of ensnaired gollies
-Wraith 16% decrease
-BCs air 16%....BCs ground 4%. Pretty strange but i did this many times and the results were the same. Ensnaire has different effect on air and ground BCs attack!!!!
-Valks 18-20% decrease.
-I left firebats for the end because they are so hard to calculate. The trick is to have the tanks that take the damage at exactly the same angle towards firebats fire. If tanks are at 45 angle towards firebat fire they take more damage for some reason compared to 90 or 0 angle. Anyway, all things considered equal ensnaire decreases firebat rate by 29%. That's the largest decrease of all!!!
Toss Units
-Zealots 16% decrease
-Goons air 14%, Goons ground 11% decrease. Pretty strange again but that's what i found, period.
-Archon air 20%, Archon ground 3% decrease. What can i say people, hope u correct me.
-Dts 22% decrease
-Carriers UNCHANGED. When ensnairing carriers directly, fire rate doesn't decrease. Then i tried to ensnaire some interceptors. I didn't notice any change either. That gave me much grieve!!!!!
-Sairs 12% decrease
-Scout air 16% decrease. Forgot to test ground.
I'd like to add that guradian's decrease is about 11% while (to my great dissapointment) siege tanks and reavers are not affected.
Lurker cooldown IS affected by ensnaire, but you have to ensnaire it while it is above the ground first in order to take affect. Ensnaring a burrowed lurker even though detected does nothing to its cooldown.
Using the terran tank as a target, I allowed the ensnared lurker to get the first hit, and the unensnared lurker to attack right after, the result being the unensnared lurker winning and the ensnared lurker's tank having 17 hp left at the time the first tank was destroyed.
I just woke up, so maybe my numbers are off but it would be around 11% decrease.
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Why is this so undocumented then? Im so confused by these results.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
In a couple games where i was goofing around i went for a fast queen / broodling rush. They tank rushed in a couple of those games and the fucking queen build SLAUGHTERED it, i plucked 3 of his tanks off right off the bat and was able to transition to ling/lurk and eventual hive just as easy. This was due to the relative cheapness of queens (100/100 for broodling) and 125/100 for a queen? It got me thinking, i usually make a point to make 1-2 queens in games where im not in an absolute scramble for economy... the arguement against them is when your scrambling to lock down that essential 3rd gas expo or you are in a scrap from high pressure the precious resources going into a queen and the MANDATORY research to make them do anything + mana regen = differance between win and lose. In those situations the extra lurker or 2 could be the game whereas the temporary slowed shooting rate simply wont be cost effective. In large scale battles or if YOU are on the offense it is of course worth it as it benefits you more so on the offense. But in situations where the pressure is put on you i believe it more intelligent to invest in combat units over support units except of course the defiler which has arguably the most powerful spellin the game.
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Norway28614 Posts
100/100 for queen
and parasite is really good vs protoss yeah
broodling is good for stalemate situations but not otherwise
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I think parasite is nice no matter what, parasiting the sci cloud is nice until they research the heal spell.
But yeah vs protoss its especially effective if you can get an archon or shuttle as they are usually relunctant to alienate them allowing you to see their movement or sacrifice a very nice unit (essentially a broodling).
I seriously think broodling has viability vs tanks, stalemate or not. If the T is going mass tanks like 2-3 facts having a force of 4-5 Queens can allow you to keep that under control.
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Norway28614 Posts
problem with broodling is if you broodling and then your queen dies while it's throwing the spell. happens surprisingly often and for some reason it has no effect then. (unlike parasite and ensnare)
and yeah parasite can be nice vs terran too, on vessels
ive even encountered really good terrans who killed their parasited vessels instead of restoring them :'(
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Osaka27139 Posts
On August 29 2006 17:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =]
totally 100% agree. ChoJJa is the only gamer I see using queens effectively in ZvT on a pro level. Other gamers only use them when the game is over or sometimes in ZvP.
I also agree with the thought that they arent used because zergs can win without them. Gosh arent we smart drone?
All of this leads me to believe that Zerg has the most potential left in their race, while terran is pretty much tapped and protoss lies somewhere in the middle (as a result of having to try constantly try new things always and haveing kang min).
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New slogan..
Zerg: Unlock the Potential
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Norway28614 Posts
ive been saying zerg has most potential for years
mostly cause I've seen them win 50%+ without queens
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just on another note, why does a burning building, thats infested, regain hitpoints? Its burning!!!!!! insane...
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Cuz its a Zerg unit and presumably is more organic material than it is not. Also from a gameplay standpoint, Zerg would have no way to repair it, so it would be pretty stupid to have a building that automatically dies when it gets below 400hp or w/e.
Also I tested out some queen shit earlier, as far as I could tell it seemed to slow all attacking units I tried it on by about 20%(Which would be 40% for stimmed marines technically). Im amazed.
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Are you guys sure that Spawn Broodlings doesn't affect Reavers? I was quite sure it does. And what exactly is the cost of the queen? 100/100 ?? That's imba for me. You tend to compare Spawn Broodlings to storm and say "storm kills more and costs 2x less". Ok, it's true, but templar is ground unit and SLOW unit what means you'll lose a LOT of them to whatever attacks them - even vults. Queen is FAST, FLYING and has big range. You can accumulate huge amount of them cause they survive a lot. And if Spawn Broodlings affects the Reaver - then it's a disaster. Protoss unloads his reavers (protected by sairs) nearby zerg's expo and they get killed from afaaaar. <shivers> I don't like it at all. Not mentioning slowing the fleeing protoss army. Feedback would be an effective counter since queen's hp is only 120, but I can't imagine anyone (even pro) noticing queen before it strikes, and killing it before it retreats (the range of Spawn Broodlings is just too great).
I'm not zerg player and I don't play a lot at all, so please correct me if I'm wrong (maybe some patch made range of Spawn Broodlings smaller?).
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Norway28614 Posts
yes I am 100% certain spawn broodling does not affect reavers
and it's 100/100
and it is definitely not too expensive
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I'm more interested in the ensnare and attack rate effect...
That is actually troublesome for me to hear T.T
So overall, about a 15% decrease in attack rate for ensnare?
And certain units like DTs,Stims,Crax are a little more effected and the really pricey units are left more alone like Archons, BCS, Ultras, Carrier/Reavers?
Hmm... neat.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Haha, if you think queen is going to be really valid in zvp..
ill just counter you with DA from the left of darktem after harassing you
feedback ftw!
(its happened.. me vs fakesteve.. DA > Queen)
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Norway28614 Posts
DA is only semi-viable. most of the time zerg will get to throw his spell before you're able to feedback. I remember a game between me and HG where he was going mass queen for broodling while turtling and I got several DAs to counter and he managed to broodling 80% of the time even though I was trying to pay attention
maybe it's easier in a LAN environment though. and again I don't think queens are really really viable zvp vs sair reaver. getting them never hurts tho but it'll rarely be gamewinning, unlike zvt.
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Belgium9946 Posts
On August 29 2006 17:28 Liquid`Drone wrote:
you ALWAYS have lurkers if you have queens. im not gonna bring my queens near his units to ensnare if im not planning on attacking soon (in which case lurkers will be just as near as the queens) and if im not planning on ensnaring anytime soon, he'll have to go on an irradiate raid to get to my queens, in which case lurkers are just as close.
and lurkers cost more than queens.
sure irradiate kills queens but you should never object to it happening because every time he irradiates a queen, he spends 1 irradiate killing 100/100 instead of 125/125 or 50/150.
unless you're going hydras in which case he could spend the mana on them instead, but then again, ensnare and hydras don't mix all that nicely against terran. it's a supplement for lurk ling defilers and ultras.
and the reason why zergs have not all started building queens is that it's still very very possible to win without them. before zergs started building defilers, the game had evolved to a point where zergs couldn't really beat the common terran strategies at that point without them. once zergs stop being able to win (if that ever happens), they'll have to revamp their game and try new things, which would lead them to discovering how helpful the queen is. I personally think, hell I'm certain, that pro zergs would experience a significant increase in win% vs terran if they tried focusing on adding queens to their game. =]
well I think Chojja used them in 2 pro ZvT's since you played in WWI :D
I guess he tried practicing them
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I saw an interesting usage of queens in a macro style ZvP once. Both players were securing expos (cannons vs sunken/lurker/spore) till the point, when both armies grew and started to attack eatch other expos. The fact is, that it's impossible to defend an expo without bringing your army (or at least part of it) to aid. Cannons are just not enough. In this game, protoss was not able do defened any of his expos. The zerg did the same thing couple of times and won easily - he lured protoss army to a battle, ensared all of it, and quicky ran away to kill a distant expo. The map was Rush Hour. I wonder why I didn't see this strat again since then, it seemed so easy for zerg.
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The fact that high level zergs do not use qeen is the reason you do not see more. Most gamers model themselves from pro games
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Queens definetly are underrated, but there *are* reasons why they are not so commonly used.
Think about this: let's say you are playing ZvT. I think it goes without saying that you need lurkers if you are going to get queens, because there's really not much of a point otherwise. I've seen Jju ensnare wraiths of Oov when Jju went muta, but that's a pretty rare circumstance, and I believe firmly that the point of the ensnare was not just to slow down the wraiths, but also to prevent them from cloaking (since you see ensnared cloaked units). So aside from that rare circumstance, you're going to have lurkers with your queens.
Now consider that you need a critical mass of lurkers to really be effective. If you keep your lurker count too low, you're going to get overrun by Terran's who have art micro as they will manage to pick off too many lurkers before you even get your chance to burrow. So obviously, fast teching queens isn't the most viable strategy on the top level in most circumstances. So consider when a progamer would want to get queens. At this point he's probably got that nice +1 carapace kicking in for his lurkers and he's grabbing or already grabbed that third gas. The thing is though, that queen's nest enables him to tech hive, and waiting just a little longer he will get defilers, which are both more micro intensive than queens and more effective, so it's hard to use both of them effectively and defilers are the better choice, so automatically defilers get chosen.
Edit: the text below with a strike through was on the spot theory crafting, and the more I think about, the more I question my own words. I'm leaving it up so people can read it, but understand I am no longer feeling so confident in it.
I do think there is some more untapped potential to queens, especially in long macro games. I'd say SK Terran is still an effective answer to queens, but even so, just as fast hive Zergs have adapted to plaguing vessels, I see more potential in a plague/ensnare combo, and hydra/lurk/filer/queen seems yet another step above hydra/lurk/filer as a counter to SK Terran, using ensnare to limit the escape ability of the Terran, though this is of course provided you have the control for adding yet more spell casters to your arsenal. Against heavy tank users, ensnare is certainly viable if they clump their tanks too close, but as for good tank spreads, I'm not yet sure about the viability of using broodling. Particularly ZvP I see some potential for parasite, particularly on shuttles to limit storm raiding.
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Well in ZvP, parasite isn't really necessary unless he is sair+reaver.
Also ensnare is better for air than ground.
But a common response is surely queen->DA, and DA gives a better strategical options than queen in ZvP.
Most power comes from storm/reaver and slowed templars/reavers are as good as the normal ones.
Broodlings aren't very cost effective.
So the hidden potential lies vs Terran probably, while Toss has a hidden potential vs Zerg(still a lot of underused units DA's, Arbiters, a rising tendency of lategame reaver usage...)
Terran is not doomed yet, ghosts have a lot of potential vs Toss.
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Norway28614 Posts
queens are much better against SK terrans than against tank heavy terrans.
much, much better.
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when I play vs fireblast he always ensnares my sairs reavers and shuttles, parasites shuttles, and most annoying of all, broodling my temps.
queens are annoying. but still getting more lurkers or swarm is a bit more annoying.
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On August 30 2006 08:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
queens are much better against SK terrans than against tank heavy terrans.
much, much better.
What about irrad? Against tanks it seems like broodling is not a bad bet because not only do you kill a tnak free, but all the other tanks fire at the broodlings and kill each other with splash. And while ensnare is better against marines than tanks for sure, the reduced firing rate should help you get your lurkers into position more easily, ripping his tank lines. Maybe that one calls for some experimentation though.
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On August 30 2006 01:53 Olmer wrote:
Are you guys sure that Spawn Broodlings doesn't affect Reavers? I was quite sure it does. .....
...
.
All ground units except these 4 can be broodlinged:
- Probe
- Reaver
- Archon
- Dark Archon
Another common mistake is to think that ultras cannot be broodlinged, but they can. Even the broodling can be broodlinged.
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like mani said, chojja had a phase where he used queens quite often. i didn't see him do particularly well with them (won some, lost some). i recall a game vs xellos where xellos was bottom right...xellos got his cc infested (maybe twice), yet chojja still lost.
seems like queen usage just isn't fully developed yet
i used to parasite and burrow a lot in the bgh days, annoyed the hell out of my friends
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Norway28614 Posts
On August 30 2006 12:14 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2006 08:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:
queens are much better against SK terrans than against tank heavy terrans.
much, much better.
What about irrad? Against tanks it seems like broodling is not a bad bet because not only do you kill a tnak free, but all the other tanks fire at the broodlings and kill each other with splash. And while ensnare is better against marines than tanks for sure, the reduced firing rate should help you get your lurkers into position more easily, ripping his tank lines. Maybe that one calls for some experimentation though.
like I already said, it's not a problem if he irradiates your queens. if he did not irradiate the queen he would irradiate a defiler or lurker instead, both being more expensive. and it's also not a problem like it is with defilers, how they're often unable to throw their spell after getting irradiated. the queen is too fast for that. not to mention that ensnare is almost as good a counter to irradiate raids as plague is, you'll always manage to scourge the retreating vessels..
ensnare doesnt help much vs sieged tanks (well unless you also swarm them and attack with lurker ling in which case he will be less likely to be able to retreat), but it's mostly a hard counter to m&m micro against lurker/ling/swarm.
basically it's a counter to mobility and tanks are already quite immobile while the vessel is only as strong as it is because it flies and is able to do hit n runs which ensnare to a large degree negates.
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queens suck
( compared to vessels and ht's )
thought about leaving this part away.. :p
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Parasite can be a pain in the ass . A smart player will use parasited unit in his advantage .
Let's imagine ZvP . The zerg manage to parasite a shuttle. A smart protoss will make a few hallucinations of a clean shuttle and a corsair and send the hallucinations along with the parasited shuttle in a kamikaze fake attack while his real force will attack somewere else. (Protoss will not make the halucinations in the viewing range of parasited shuttle , ofcours ). And this is just one example of "an eye for an eye" scenario
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Norway28614 Posts
yes theorycraft is awesome
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16968 Posts
On August 30 2006 14:04 DeathBlow wrote:
Parasite can be a pain in the ass . A smart player will use parasited unit in his advantage .
Let's imagine ZvP . The zerg manage to parasite a shuttle. A smart protoss will make a few hallucinations of a clean shuttle and a corsair and send the hallucinations along with the parasited shuttle in a kamikaze fake attack while his real force will attack somewere else. (Protoss will not make the halucinations in the viewing range of parasited shuttle , ofcours ). And this is just one example of "an eye for an eye" scenario
This is also an example of a "never going to happen" scenario.
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Yeah . I'v noticed that all people play standard this days . Nobody try to get a place on "PP" anymore .
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On August 30 2006 15:38 DeathBlow wrote:
Yeah . I'v noticed that all people play standard this days . Nobody try to get a place on "PP" anymore .
PP stands for "Pimpest" Plays, not PatheticallyDumbAndTimeConsuminglyUseless Plays.
Honestly, it's a good idea, but only in theory. You're the kind of player that thinks that you should leave a queen over the nat cliff to ensnare the workers from time to time. There's nothing wrong with it, but no one will ever do it because the time wasted doing that is far more valuable.
People keep forgetting that Time is a resource just like Minerals and Gas.
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On August 30 2006 17:30 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2006 15:38 DeathBlow wrote:
Yeah . I'v noticed that all people play standard this days . Nobody try to get a place on "PP" anymore . PP stands for "Pimpest" Plays, not PatheticallyDumbAndTimeConsuminglyUseless Plays. Honestly, it's a good idea, but only in theory. You're the kind of player that thinks that you should leave a queen over the nat cliff to ensnare the workers from time to time. There's nothing wrong with it, but no one will ever do it because the time wasted doing that is far more valuable. People keep forgetting that Time is a resource just like Minerals and Gas.
OMFG BUT RINES LESS EFFECTIVE LOLOL1!!11
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United States5262 Posts
Queens used to have Glave Wurm, they would be poonage if they got it back in 1.15
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would it be good to infest cc, when you go mutaling, terran goes out, and you "counter", just to steal the cc=
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I think queens are easy to use...
Think of it this way...
Ensnare is like, well, STORM, and queen flies so it's pretty easy.
Parasite/Broodling is like irradiation, and I don't see terran complaining OMG so hard to controll vessels all the time.
So yeah they are not THAT hard to use ~_~
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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On August 30 2006 18:15 Night[Mare] wrote:
would it be good to infest cc, when you go mutaling, terran goes out, and you "counter", just to steal the cc=
Well if there's many turrets and/or bunker you need to kill them first or u may have a lot of mutas dying for just 1 cc. And you also have to defend your expansion after that.
So it's only good for really long ground way maps.
I mean you almost need to keep the turret busy while your queen is going to infest right ? So that mean there'd a lot of mutas dying.
You won't see a good terran player leaving his expansion without making at least 3 turrets.
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16968 Posts
Queens disappear in the middle of infesting. All they need is a small distraction like a few Overlords.
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Osaka27139 Posts
I wonder why broodlings have mana.
It would be nice if infested terrans were free and build faster.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
broodlings have mana cause their life is limited :O they tick down just like a hallucination
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On August 30 2006 18:43 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
just disregard evan
ouch ouch burnt? 
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On August 30 2006 22:14 Manifesto7 wrote:
I wonder why broodlings have mana.
It would be nice if infested terrans were free and build faster.
Its more like a timer, its 255/255 if im thinking right anyway which is not a "mana" amount found in any units.
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Osaka27139 Posts
It is actually 180. I dont know if it is affected by queen mana upgrade though
And I didnt know they expire after the mana is gone I learn something new everyday.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On August 30 2006 22:54 evanthebouncy~ wrote:ouch ouch burnt?
Its nothing personal evan, its just like the cute little 6 year old cousin wandering into the kitchen while the parents are making a big family dinner on Christmas. We smile, pat you on the head, and hand you a icecube as we lead you back out into the living room. Where the grandfather waits to put a vice grip on the scruff of your neck because that sort of bonding was popular back in the day, but now only serves to extinguish any hope of you NOT associating pain with family as that old geeser pinches the last ounce of joy you had in the night so that you may grow up to be an abusive drunk who.. I digress.
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Was'nt it Chojja who used to go for a hydra and some lurk(killing scvs who want to repair the cc) drop with a Queen to infest the CC?
Long time ago I saw a replay of this were he dropped main and expo at same time with this, was fucking awesome.
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after seeing xellos vs shark[gm] (shark used queens) I have my doubts
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On August 31 2006 02:54 Liquid`Drone wrote:ive done that plenty o times it's good I also used to ensnare scvs before lurker dropping sorta stopped cause I changed styles and never really lurker dropped much anymore (besides it was so much worse on the new maps than it was on temple), but it's really fucking good. a couple times I would even lurker drop with swarm and then when he lifted his cc I would scourge+infest it not to mention the 20 muta+1 queen rush which rapes against non-fast expanding terrans. unfortunately all terrans fast exp now so it's not good.  it's actually not a shitty build even against a fast expanding terran though. you can take a third gas pretty easily cause when you have 20 mutas he either has to bring mostly all his rines to take care of the exp or have them killed in transit, or he has to open himself up for infesting. and 3 turrets don't affect you at all if you have 20 mutas. not even 3 turrets+ 1 bunker does.
You make me laugh! The next thing you'll claim is having qualified for WCG using maelstrom in PvP.
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Ok so what would be your ZvT queen build, like 2 hatch mutas/lurks right into queens nest before 2nd expo?
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Infest cc is more of a late game containment strategy, run in, get cc down then steal it. its effective vs those of us who forget to protect expo's with fortified def.
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Belgium9946 Posts
On August 31 2006 01:32 XythOs wrote:
Was'nt it Chojja who used to go for a hydra and some lurk(killing scvs who want to repair the cc) drop with a Queen to infest the CC?
Long time ago I saw a replay of this were he dropped main and expo at same time with this, was fucking awesome.
Chojja vs Some Terran on requiem, i think Nada or Oov. The terran didnt even leave his base all game, chojja played that game artish
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I still think infested terran can turn tides.
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Norway28614 Posts
On August 31 2006 06:02 humblegar wrote:
You make me laugh! The next thing you'll claim is having qualified for WCG using maelstrom in PvP.
hahaha
sorry
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On August 31 2006 12:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2006 06:02 humblegar wrote:
You make me laugh! The next thing you'll claim is having qualified for WCG using maelstrom in PvP. hahaha sorry
That weekend is still the only time I\'ve been to http://www.discgolfpark.com/english/indexE.htm (Europe\'s only professional discgolf course), I had a great time watching all you guys on LAN too, even though the big screen mostly showed Trek winning every freaking game vs other Swedes ^^
I still remember you vs Slayer, he with his intense (although a bit rusty) style/speed and you playing like you are on vacation or something, hiding scourge as calmly as if it was sim city, Your warmup spam was selecting a mineral patch or two and smiling, who can beat such cheating tactics! I've been to many many tournaments in different sports and that attitude you have is not quite the norm...
Those games were great btw, and still are I guess for those with earlier versions of bw available, but I don't remember any queens^^ <- pathethic attempt to stay on thread.
In addition those are probably the last 2 official Slayer games except the Stinger vs him cheese in the LB bo1 final.
Anyways grudge match soon! I've noticed your form slipping
Sorry OP for this highjacking nonsense ^^
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Okay. So, this is seriously like the 12th topic with this EXACT title. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but no, really, you know what I'm talking about.
Do you know why you don't see queens used in games?
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY POSTING ABOUT HOW VIABLE THEY ARE TO ACTUALLY USE THEM. GET OUT THERE AND TRY IT.
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Eriador , Would be very nice if u could make a rep pack of your queen using games , to show people that it is very viable , I would be very interessed since i use queens almost every not important game zxt or zxp ( im always afraid to use it on tourneys or Cws )
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16968 Posts
On August 31 2006 17:13 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Okay. So, this is seriously like the 12th topic with this EXACT title. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but no, really, you know what I'm talking about.
Do you know why you don't see queens used in games?
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY POSTING ABOUT HOW VIABLE THEY ARE TO ACTUALLY USE THEM. GET OUT THERE AND TRY IT.
Well I've read both threads in the "Recommended Threads" thread, and I found them useful. My Zerg sucks too much cock to actually be at the level where I could integrate queens into my play. I'd be willing to bet that my Zerg is worse than D level on PGT. Probably worse than c6 when WGT was still around. The old one.
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On August 31 2006 19:21 Empyrean wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2006 17:13 5HITCOMBO wrote:
Okay. So, this is seriously like the 12th topic with this EXACT title. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but no, really, you know what I'm talking about.
Do you know why you don't see queens used in games?
BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE TOO BUSY POSTING ABOUT HOW VIABLE THEY ARE TO ACTUALLY USE THEM. GET OUT THERE AND TRY IT. Well I've read both threads in the "Recommended Threads" thread, and I found them useful. My Zerg sucks too much cock to actually be at the level where I could integrate queens into my play. I'd be willing to bet that my Zerg is worse than D level on PGT. Probably worse than c6 when WGT was still around. The old one.
oh the irony.
i use queens all the time !
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Norway28614 Posts
im unfortunately not able to make any replay packs as I have formatted my harddrive
really should have kept some of my old zvt games =[
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Valhalla18444 Posts
....so play more games YOU SACK OF SHIT !!!!!!!!!
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On August 31 2006 22:53 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
....so play more games YOU SACK OF SHIT !!!!!!!!!
QFT!
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Man no one has thought of using broodling on a worker that is mining gas...If you somehow managed to have the extra eco and they don't notice it was a gas miner straight away...2 minutes later they'll start wondering why they can't pump their 2fact1port or 2port1fact... I got that idea since sometimes zvz i intend to leave 2 drones on gas for like 30 seconds, then forget to put one. I notice about 7 minutes later when i'm losing the air battles. Also when ever i did bother getting queens they ended up sitting around doing crap for like 5 minutes, then i'd parasite something, or waste an ensnare, then they'd die. Yes i sucked even worse then.
Also that CC infest thing is powerful. Ages ago it won be agame on S ignal, we both had most of our army in the mid in a half-stalemate. Lurkers got the best of his CC, down to about 600 then the queen stole it...Tanks were just out of range...
Testie has a point with the 20 mutas....If he tries to attack you, he losses his expo or his main. Mabye even both his CCs. He'd need a good 15 stimmed marines, 4 turrets, and a bunker to fend off 20 mtuas with snare...
Man this thread has made me want to learn to use queens...again...
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Norway28614 Posts
lol
if you broodling one of his workers mining gas he'll notice he's under attack because the broodlings will instantly attack the scvs around it
and then if he's good he will notice and adjust. =[
and besides in tvz if you're mining with 1 scv less on gas in 1 exp it will rarely be gamedeciding
and zvp you cant broodling workers
and zvz you sure as hell cant spend gas on queen+broodling upgrade :p
and why do you think I am testie
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lol liquid drone pwned. yeah that worker broodling thing is worthless. And yeah probes can't be broodling'd. I tried using queens but what became the most useful for me was parasite.
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On September 01 2006 04:09 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if you broodling one of his workers mining gas he'll notice he's under attack because the broodlings will instantly attack the scvs around it
What about if we manage to not instantly attack the scv and gets them everywhere else ? Would the player still get the sign that he's under attack ?
It'd be a good surprise though. Just to piss him off hehe.
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Norway28614 Posts
im actually not sure if the broodling spell itself tells him he's under attack. I suspect not, as for example dts killing units with 1 strike doesnt give a message either. HOWEVER.
the odds of him 1: not having enough turrets/marines/bunkers to kill your queen near his cc (usually terrans do), 2 : not noticing the queen on the minimap, 3: you not managing to remove the broodlings before they attack (broodlings attack pretty much instantly after the spell is cast) and 4: him not noticing anyway is pretty small
hence you risk 1 queen and some time on the very tiny chance of you being able to broodling 1 scv mining gas without him noticing
and that's not really a significant setback to him in any way after you have queens. just broodling a siegetank instead, it'll certainly cost him more.
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On August 29 2006 15:14 13Julia wrote:
Ensere removes the effect of stim.
i wonder if its utopic to have a low-count poster with good ideas.
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what is utopic about that. its just a fact. there was a fairly recent thread where some guy asked about the viability of mutas + lings with ensnare with quick grades against m and m. That's an idea, I've tried it a lot of times, and brings some interesting results against m and m that are expo raiding before vessels arrive.
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EPT
