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PvT Opening 1 goon range nexus

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-30 00:24:09
June 20 2013 10:55 GMT
#1
This is a discussion thread for the 1 goon, range, nexus PvT opening.

There are variations:
One way is to get a second gate after the nexus.

Another way is to stay on 1 gate and get robo and observatory while making goons out of the single gateway.
Im going to focus on this second method.
So basically you get 1 goon, range, nexus. Then robo, observatory, while making goons from the single gate. Your 5th goon will pop at the same time as your first observer.

Vs Gas
If the Terran didnt open with rax expo or cc first, then you make your 2nd and 3rd gate after the observatory.
The 2 extra gates complete as your 5th goon and first observer pops. So now you begin a round of 3 goons.

Vs Rax Expo:
Make your 3rd nexus and observatory simultaneously while on 1 gate after the 4th goon pops.
You then add 3 gates (total of 4) then citadel.
Alternatively you can add only 2 gates (total of 3) and get a support bay and reaver instead.

Example games:
Here are some examples vs RAX EXPO:
+ Show Spoiler +

Dear vs Light on Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/102931_Dear_vs_Light/vod

This shows how to defend against vultures.
Note how your first 4 goons will be able to attack the bunker but the 4th goon only shoots a few times before you have to retreat. You must retreat all the way back to your natural. Dear gets a support bay and reaver. He gets 2 observers, then reaver then shuttle.

Best vs Reality on Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/104906_BeSt_vs_Reality/vod

Here is another similar game, again showing how to defend against vultures. Best demonstrates how to add in a reaver too. He does let 2 vults into his main which could have been avoided.



Here are some examples vs FACTORY OPENINGS:
+ Show Spoiler +

Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/120300_Sharp_vs_Trap/vod

This shows how to defend against mine expo (1 tank, 6 rine, vult with mines). See how he immediately retreats to his natural and waits for the 4th goon to pop. Once you have 4 goons, you can 2 hit a tank.

Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/102737_Dear_vs_Sea

This game is also vs a mine expo. You can see how Dear positions his goons, waiting at his own natural for the 4th goon to pop, and then moving out to his ridge to engage any possible attack that might be there.

Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/102379_Stats_vs_TurN/vod

Turn opens with the 1 vult bunker expo. Watch how Stats places his first goon at his nat choke and a probe on his ramp before the second goon pops (also see Jangbi vs Light on La Mancha for the same technique). When the vult tries to run by, the probe stops it just long enough, and the 2nd goon is out now to clean up. This means the vulture is dead rather than just scared off. After that, he briefly attacks the bunker with the first 2 goons, then retreats after the tank is out. Also of interest is that in this game Stats takes two probes off gas to build his nexus but this is not done in any of the other games.


So the games above show how to execute the build vs different terran openings.
Below are some examples of how NOT to do it:

These next 2 games show how not to defend vs vultures after rax expo:
+ Show Spoiler +

Its good to trick the enemy into thinking you have a weakness if you are able to get an advantage out of it. Sometimes its good to make it look like vults can runby so the terran does so but then you actually clean them up cost efficiently. However, when a Protoss does a triple nexus, he is absolutely not able to do these sorts of tricks. Protoss must properly block the entrances and react quickly to micro down any mines etc.

Jaehoon vs Fantasy on Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/115471_Argo_vs_FanTaSy/vod

At 8:27 you can see the goons are not tightly blocking the nat choke. The result is catastrophic.

Dear vs Flash on Neo Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/117050_Dear_vs_Flash/vod

The pylon wall into the 3rd was not tight, small mistake but Flash punishes it very well. Also shows how fully walling the close entrance into your 3rd can be problematic. Consider leaving a 1 tile gap into your 3rd at the close entrance, blocked with a goon, or wall it tightly but leave 1 goon trapped inside the 3rd. Dear tries to transition into 3 base carrier but Flash stops that. Useful game to see the opening builds atleast.


These 2 games show how not to defend mine expo (1 tank, 6 rine, vult with mines)
+ Show Spoiler +

Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/99243_INnoVation_vs_Rain/vod


Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/116564_FanTaSy_vs_Grape/vod

At 8:05 Grape positions his goons out in the open and they get separated from his natural by mines.



For comparison lets mention a sister build. If you prefer opening with 3 goons before nexus, you can still use a very similar build, in that you build 5 goon from a single gate, start making your 1st observer, and then you get a round of 3 goons just like in the build we are looking at.
For example
+ Show Spoiler +

Horang2 vs Reality on Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/98770_Horang2_vs_Reality/main

And
Jangbi vs Last on Jade
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/103249_JangBi_vs_Last/main

This one is a bit harder to observe. We see 5 goons are out of the single gate. We then see he goes up to 3 gates. Later we see he is on 10 goons. My guess is he made the 5, then a round of 3 goons, then 2 more goons and a shuttle, then a round of 3 zealots.



Here is another 17 example games of the 1 goon range nexus opener. This is just a random list and includes examples of the quicker 2nd gate, some wins, some losses etc:
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/103159_PianO_vs_Tyson/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/74727_Rain_vs_Rush/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/74731_Bbyong_vs_Rain/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/71908_Rain_vs_Sharp/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/76879_Bbyong_vs_Stats/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75270_INnoVation_vs_Stats/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75182_INnoVation_vs_Stats/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/73673_Horang2_vs_Last/vod


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/105065_sOs_vs_TY


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/77334_Last_vs_ParalyzE


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75145_JangBi_vs_Light


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/96011_sSak_vs_StarDust


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/72159_Flash_vs_Shuttle


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/72765_Iris_vs_Shuttle


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75267_Flash_vs_Shuttle


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/75193_Flash_vs_Shuttle


http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/127412_Reality_vs_Shuttle




Here are some more precise details:

Im measuring the game start as when a player first has control over their workers etc.
All the timings below can be compared directly.
The following section details timings of things in 1 goon range nexus opener vs fac builds and some other stuff.

Timing of some attacks
+ Show Spoiler +

Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.14 (cross spawn) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 2 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines

Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 2 fac attack hits at 6.12 (cross spawn) 8 rines, 2 tanks, 1 scv and 4 vults (2 have already died in an earlier runby attempt)

Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.22 (cross spawn, placed 4 mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 1 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines.
(Movie has 3 goons on his ridge, 3 goons at his nat choke and 1 zealot. The 6th goon had just got to the nat. He opened 1 zealot 3 goon expo) (First obs arrives at 6.44)

Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.37 (cross spawn, placed a couple of mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 3 scv, 7 vults with speed and mines.
(Bisu has 8 goons on his ridge and 1 observer joining. He opened 3 goon expo)

Trap vs Sharp Sniper Ridge Mine expo attack hits at 5.14 (P spawn behind T)

Sun vs Bogus Neo Ground Zero Mine expo attack hits at 4.54 (left vs right)

Grape vs Fantasy Neo Ground Zero Mine expo type attack hits at 5.02 (top vs bottom)


Timings in 1 goon expo examples
+ Show Spoiler +

Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge
At 5.20 Dear’s 4th goon is at the Nat choke.
At 5.46 Dear's 5th goon pops.
At 6.14 Dear has 5 goons and his first obs is out.
At 6.18 Dear's observer has reached his ridge.
At 6.35 Dear has 8 goons on his ridge

Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge
At 5.14 the 4th goon is at the Nat choke. The mine expo attack hits aswell. (slightly cautious)
At 5.27 the 5th goon pops.
At 6.00 the first obs pops.
At 6.14 the obs is at the Nat choke.

Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge
At 6.12 the 5th goon and first obs are at the nat.

Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero
At 4.54 the mine expo attack hits (6 rines 1 tank 1 vult with mines) and Sun has 3 goons outside his nat choke.
At 5.03 T lays first mine in P nat.
At 5.17 P 4th goon is at the top of main ramp.

Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero
At 4.50 Grape has 3 goons engaging 5 rines 1 tank at the centre line.
At 4.57 the 4th goon pops.
At 5.02 the 1 tank 5 rine and vult with mines attack hits the P nat.


Timings in 3 goon expo examples for comparison
+ Show Spoiler +

Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo)
At 4.50 3 goons are engaging the T near the Terran ridge (past the halfway line). Terran lays his first mine aswell (on his own ridge). Also the 4th goon pops now.
At 6.04 Protoss has 5 goons and 1 observer.
At 6.17 The 8th goon is at the natural choke.

Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo)
At 4.50 P has 3 goons at the Terran ridge (past the halfway line).
At 5.00 P has 4th goon at his nat choke.
At 5.32 P has 5th goon at his nat choke. (natural starts to mine now too)
At 6.39 P has first observer at his ridge.


So the results are that 1 goon expo will have 5 goons and 1 observer vs a 2 fac attack similar to the one in Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge and the one in Leta vs Wooki on Neo Ground Zero. Note that this is the same number of goons as the 3 goon expo.

Vs 6 rines 1 tank, if Terran is very aggressive Protoss will have 3 goons to engage with outside his nat. The 4th goon will be out 20 seconds later. This is worst case scenario.


3 popular ways to open in PvT are:
1 goon expo (this thread)
3 goon expo
2 gate 6 goon expo

Terran can normally scout the nexus timing vs 1 goon expo. This allows him to rule out dts and reavers. It enables him to be more aggressive with his units and with his initial mine placement. Terran will sometimes take a risk and be very aggressive even if he hasn’t scouted the nexus timing too eg Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero.

The 3 goon expo doesn’t have this weakness, but ofcourse, it doesn’t have the econ injection as early.

The 2 gate 6 goon then nexus is really nice because you can triple nexus off the 6 goons if vs a rax expo, and the pressure the goons put on the bunker keep you even. (I might make a separate thread for this opener).


Bonus games (Two slightly unusual variations of 1 goon expo)
+ Show Spoiler +

M18M vs Ssak on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.37)
4.46 P starts 3rd gate and observatory same time
5.13 P has 3 goons on his ridge, contact with Terran mine expo attack (first vult included)
5.24 T lays his 3rd mine.
5.39 P has first observer and 4th goon at his nat. (not common)
6.07 P has 6 goons (so he made 4 goons then got 2 more gates, then made a round of only 2 goons). (not common)
6.42 P has 9 goons (a round of 3 goons)

Tyson vs Piano on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.12)
4.41 P has 2 goons at his nat choke engaging 5 rines 1 vult with mines
4.45 P 3rd goon pops and probes are being transferred to nat.
5.48 P 4th goon reaches the nat choke (he made his 2 extra gates after only 3 goons, delaying this 4th goon) (not common)


The game start times of each game I used were
+ Show Spoiler +

Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 1.31
Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 1.48
Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2.56
Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2.19
Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge 1.52
Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero 1.39
Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero 3.10
Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge 1.48
Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge 2.03
Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.39
Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.05



BONUS
An interesting game to point out is:
Snow vs Bogus on New Sniper Ridge
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/125174_INnoVation_vs_Snow/main

Unique opening. It happens to be against a 2 fac cross spawn. Snow gets 1 gate core and 3 pylons suggesting a 3 goon expo or similar. However, he only makes 2 goons then nexus. The nexus is built on 25/33 population. He then pauses goon production, gets robo then 2nd and 3rd gate. Now he pauses probe production. He is on 28 population and has 2 goons so he has 24 probes. His 3rd goon pops (30 population) then loses a scouting probe (29/41 population). Soon after, the nexus finishes (adding 9 to psi) and gets presumably another probe as he goes to 30/50 population. We see the nat nexus flashing, then the counter goes to 31, then 32, then 34. This is presumably 2 more probes and the 4th goon from the single gate. Next, we see the main and nat nexus are not flashing. We see the counter go up to 35, then 37, 39, 41. This is the first observer, then a round of 3 goons. Snow is on 41/66 because he made 2 more pylons. Bogus attacks with 6 rines, 3 tanks, 5 vults (with speed and mines), and 2 scv. Snow has 7 goons and an observer when the attack enters his natural. Snow doesn’t have much room to manoeuvre, and suicides one goon forward into the minefield semi successfully. He defends the attack pretty well overall. The follow up vult harass is brilliantly microed by Bogus and he kills quite a few probes. Snow gets a reaver/shuttle and then busts the Terran nat using 11 goons plus reaver with 2 zealots. Bogus has 5 tanks and is not quite able to hold.



Stuff from the old OP that may still be useful:

Q. 'Can it defend vs BBS?'
A. If Terran BBS then the attack arrives as the first goon pops. Therefore you can reactively defend. If no attack comes, Protoss knows he doesn’t need to worry about that opening any more. If Terran was hiding the BBS and comes a few seconds later, you can cancel the nexus and get a shield battery and stuff.


fold made this cool picture showing the quicker 2nd gate variation
[image loading]

Here is a link to a micro map that simulates 1 goon expo vs mine expo and vs 2 fac attacks:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/476871-micro-map-pvt-goon
(also a micro map that simulates 3 goon expo vs the same attacks)
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
jello_biafra
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
United Kingdom6639 Posts
June 20 2013 12:20 GMT
#2
What exactly do you want to discuss? Can you post the BO for it?
The road to hell is paved with good intentions | aka Probert[PaiN] @ iccup / godlikeparagon @ twitch | my BW stream: http://www.teamliquid.net/video/streams/jello_biafra
fold
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia665 Posts
June 20 2013 12:32 GMT
#3
BO is here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/21_Nexus

You can help fill it out by linking those vods.
t.t
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
June 20 2013 12:35 GMT
#4
There are variations but here is one of them:

8 pylon
10 gate
11 gas
13 core
15 pylon
18 goon
19 range
Nexus (after first goon is out)
2nd goon
2nd gate
Pylon
3rd and 4th goon built at same time I think
Robo and pylon
Obs and pylon
5th and 6th goon I think
3rd Nexus (starts as 5th and 6th goon finish) (this is for vs rax expo)
(if vs fac expo you get a 3rd gate and a later 3rd nexus)

You can also get 3rd nexus before observatory when vs rax expo. Maybe even try getting 3rd nexus before the robo vs rax expo but most often they dont.
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
t0ssboy
Profile Joined August 2011
Bulgaria681 Posts
June 20 2013 19:04 GMT
#5
^
I'm pretty damn sure that the 2nd gateway comes before the 2nd goon so you can start goon 3/4 at the same time.
Courage is doing what you are afraid to do.There can be no courage if there is no fear.
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
June 20 2013 23:29 GMT
#6
On June 21 2013 04:04 t0ssboy wrote:
^
I'm pretty damn sure that the 2nd gateway comes before the 2nd goon so you can start goon 3/4 at the same time.


how much before?

@OP

In what situation should the toss go for DTs instead and at what point should he try to go for a third? Thanks!
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
June 21 2013 03:53 GMT
#7
BBS should beat this unless the protoss has incredible micro and the terran does not. In order to defeat BBS just scout with a probe (I like to gateway scout) in time to react and go 2gate zealots.



aka DragOn[NaS]
t0ssboy
Profile Joined August 2011
Bulgaria681 Posts
June 21 2013 09:42 GMT
#8
On June 21 2013 08:29 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2013 04:04 t0ssboy wrote:
^
I'm pretty damn sure that the 2nd gateway comes before the 2nd goon so you can start goon 3/4 at the same time.


how much before?

@OP

In what situation should the toss go for DTs instead and at what point should he try to go for a third? Thanks!

After the 21 Nexus you make a gateway with your first 150 minerals and with your next 125 you make a dragoon,after the dragoon you make a probe and after the probe a pylon
Courage is doing what you are afraid to do.There can be no courage if there is no fear.
wearmydiamonds
Profile Joined October 2012
United States32 Posts
June 22 2013 21:48 GMT
#9
On June 21 2013 08:29 Golgotha wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 21 2013 04:04 t0ssboy wrote:
^
I'm pretty damn sure that the 2nd gateway comes before the 2nd goon so you can start goon 3/4 at the same time.


how much before?

@OP

In what situation should the toss go for DTs instead and at what point should he try to go for a third? Thanks!


Taking your 3rd is pretty situational, if he opened rax double you can take it quicker but you have to be careful of 2fact timing, with 4 tank+6-8 marine and rallied speed vulture, as seen in flash vs free on grand line. as a T player i've had a lot of success with this because most iccup protosses blindly double expand off 1-2 gates vs rax double.
Berceno
Profile Joined May 2012
Spain401 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-06-23 01:10:55
June 23 2013 01:10 GMT
#10
funny thing that you put light vs tempest as an example of build safety lol
protoss living in da ghetto
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
June 23 2013 05:19 GMT
#11
Who is going to go bbs in TvP? It just doesn't seem very likely.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
June 23 2013 05:55 GMT
#12
its very common on fish ladder, where koreans like to get away with not probe scouting
aka DragOn[NaS]
Golgotha
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Korea (South)8418 Posts
June 23 2013 11:47 GMT
#13
fold you are awesome. great picture guide
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
June 23 2013 12:27 GMT
#14
On June 23 2013 14:19 ninazerg wrote:
Who is going to go bbs in TvP? It just doesn't seem very likely.


And that's why it works.
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
October 15 2014 00:03 GMT
#15
Redone the OP, better organised, more examples etc.

@ninJazerg
Flash did a few proximity 8 rax games in 2012 eg:
vs Best on Jade


vs M18M on Neo Electric Circuit
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 15 2014 01:40 GMT
#16
On October 15 2014 09:03 CardinalAllin wrote:
Redone the OP, better organised, more examples etc.

@ninJazerg


I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE ADDRESSING BUT WHO IS THIS "NINJAZERG", IS IT SOME GUY WHO ALWAYS GETS BURROW AND HIDES ALL HIS UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND CREEP BY BURROWING IT ALL AND HIS OPPONENT IS LIKE WTF MATE, CUZ I WANNA KNOW UNLESS YOU MEANT ME, BUT THAT COULDN'T BE THE CASE BECAUSE THERE'S NO J IN MA NAME.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
October 15 2014 04:24 GMT
#17
On October 15 2014 10:40 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2014 09:03 CardinalAllin wrote:
Redone the OP, better organised, more examples etc.

@ninJazerg


I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE ADDRESSING BUT WHO IS THIS "NINJAZERG", IS IT SOME GUY WHO ALWAYS GETS BURROW AND HIDES ALL HIS UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND CREEP BY BURROWING IT ALL AND HIS OPPONENT IS LIKE WTF MATE, CUZ I WANNA KNOW UNLESS YOU MEANT ME, BUT THAT COULDN'T BE THE CASE BECAUSE THERE'S NO J IN MA NAME.

you're caplocks is on bro
NAKR`flying
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
October 15 2014 05:14 GMT
#18
On October 15 2014 13:24 fearthequeen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2014 10:40 ninazerg wrote:
On October 15 2014 09:03 CardinalAllin wrote:
Redone the OP, better organised, more examples etc.

@ninJazerg


I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE ADDRESSING BUT WHO IS THIS "NINJAZERG", IS IT SOME GUY WHO ALWAYS GETS BURROW AND HIDES ALL HIS UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND CREEP BY BURROWING IT ALL AND HIS OPPONENT IS LIKE WTF MATE, CUZ I WANNA KNOW UNLESS YOU MEANT ME, BUT THAT COULDN'T BE THE CASE BECAUSE THERE'S NO J IN MA NAME.

you're caplocks is on bro


Damn it. I usually have to look down at the keyboard to type with one finger at a time, so if I accidentally hit the caps lock key and aren't paying attention, the above happens. It's really annoying and makes it seem like I'm shouting.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
October 15 2014 07:33 GMT
#19
On October 15 2014 14:14 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 15 2014 13:24 fearthequeen wrote:
On October 15 2014 10:40 ninazerg wrote:
On October 15 2014 09:03 CardinalAllin wrote:
Redone the OP, better organised, more examples etc.

@ninJazerg


I DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'RE ADDRESSING BUT WHO IS THIS "NINJAZERG", IS IT SOME GUY WHO ALWAYS GETS BURROW AND HIDES ALL HIS UNITS AND BUILDINGS AND CREEP BY BURROWING IT ALL AND HIS OPPONENT IS LIKE WTF MATE, CUZ I WANNA KNOW UNLESS YOU MEANT ME, BUT THAT COULDN'T BE THE CASE BECAUSE THERE'S NO J IN MA NAME.

you're caplocks is on bro


Damn it. I usually have to look down at the keyboard to type with one finger at a time, so if I accidentally hit the caps lock key and aren't paying attention, the above happens. It's really annoying and makes it seem like I'm shouting.

I figured as much. I didn't want all these nerds to think you were some raving lunatic.
NAKR`flying
tenacity
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
1587 Posts
October 15 2014 13:15 GMT
#20
great bump!
It does not need to be fun to be fun.
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
October 17 2014 08:30 GMT
#21
How does this deal with 2 fact (3 tanks, 5~ish rines, rallied vultures)?
how bout fake double?
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-20 00:15:57
October 19 2014 23:35 GMT
#22
Here are some more precise details:

Im measuring the game start as when a player first has control over their workers etc.
All the timings below can be compared directly.
The following section details timings of things in 1 goon range nexus opener vs fac builds and some other stuff.

Timing of some attacks
+ Show Spoiler +

Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.14 (cross spawn) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 2 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines

Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 2 fac attack hits at 6.12 (cross spawn) 8 rines, 2 tanks, 1 scv and 4 vults (2 have already died in an earlier runby attempt)

Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.22 (cross spawn, placed 4 mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 1 scv, 5 vults with speed and mines.
(Movie has 3 goons on his ridge, 3 goons at his nat choke and 1 zealot. The 6th goon had just got to the nat. He opened 1 zealot 3 goon expo) (First obs arrives at 6.44)

Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2 fac attack hits at 6.37 (cross spawn, placed a couple of mines defensively before moving out) 6 rines, 3 tanks, 3 scv, 7 vults with speed and mines.
(Bisu has 8 goons on his ridge and 1 observer joining. He opened 3 goon expo)

Trap vs Sharp Sniper Ridge Mine expo attack hits at 5.14 (P spawn behind T)

Sun vs Bogus Neo Ground Zero Mine expo attack hits at 4.54 (left vs right)

Grape vs Fantasy Neo Ground Zero Mine expo type attack hits at 5.02 (top vs bottom)


Timings in 1 goon expo examples
+ Show Spoiler +

Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge
At 5.20 Dear’s 4th goon is at the Nat choke.
At 5.46 Dear's 5th goon pops.
At 6.14 Dear has 5 goons and his first obs is out.
At 6.18 Dear's observer has reached his ridge.
At 6.35 Dear has 8 goons on his ridge

Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge
At 5.14 the 4th goon is at the Nat choke. The mine expo attack hits aswell. (slightly cautious)
At 5.27 the 5th goon pops.
At 6.00 the first obs pops.
At 6.14 the obs is at the Nat choke.

Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge
At 6.12 the 5th goon and first obs are at the nat.

Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero
At 4.54 the mine expo attack hits (6 rines 1 tank 1 vult with mines) and Sun has 3 goons outside his nat choke.
At 5.03 T lays first mine in P nat.
At 5.17 P 4th goon is at the top of main ramp.

Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero
At 4.50 Grape has 3 goons engaging 5 rines 1 tank at the centre line.
At 4.57 the 4th goon pops.
At 5.02 the 1 tank 5 rine and vult with mines attack hits the P nat.


Timings in 3 goon expo examples for comparison
+ Show Spoiler +

Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo)
At 4.50 3 goons are engaging the T near the Terran ridge (past the halfway line). Terran lays his first mine aswell (on his own ridge). Also the 4th goon pops now.
At 6.04 Protoss has 5 goons and 1 observer.
At 6.17 The 8th goon is at the natural choke.

Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo)
At 4.50 P has 3 goons at the Terran ridge (past the halfway line).
At 5.00 P has 4th goon at his nat choke.
At 5.32 P has 5th goon at his nat choke. (natural starts to mine now too)
At 6.39 P has first observer at his ridge.


So the results are that 1 goon expo will have 5 goons and 1 observer vs a 2 fac attack similar to the one in Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge and the one in Leta vs Wooki on Neo Ground Zero. Note that this is the same number of goons as the 3 goon expo.

Vs 6 rines 1 tank, if Terran is very aggressive Protoss will have 3 goons to engage with outside his nat. The 4th goon will be out 20 seconds later. This is worst case scenario.


3 popular ways to open in PvT are:
1 goon expo (this thread)
3 goon expo
2 gate 6 goon expo

Terran can normally scout the nexus timing vs 1 goon expo. This allows him to rule out dts and reavers. It enables him to be more aggressive with his units and with his initial mine placement. Terran will sometimes take a risk and be very aggressive even if he hasn’t scouted the nexus timing too eg Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero.

The 3 goon expo doesn’t have this weakness, but ofcourse, it doesn’t have the econ injection as early.

The 2 gate 6 goon then nexus is really nice because you can triple nexus off the 6 goons if vs a rax expo, and the pressure the goons put on the bunker keep you even. (I might make a separate thread for this opener).


Bonus games (Two slightly unusual variations of 1 goon expo)
+ Show Spoiler +

M18M vs Ssak on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.37)
4.46 P starts 3rd gate and observatory same time
5.13 P has 3 goons on his ridge, contact with Terran mine expo attack (first vult included)
5.24 T lays his 3rd mine.
5.39 P has first observer and 4th goon at his nat. (not common)
6.07 P has 6 goons (so he made 4 goons then got 2 more gates, then made a round of only 2 goons). (not common)
6.42 P has 9 goons (a round of 3 goons)

Tyson vs Piano on Sniper Ridge (game start 2.12)
4.41 P has 2 goons at his nat choke engaging 5 rines 1 vult with mines
4.45 P 3rd goon pops and probes are being transferred to nat.
5.48 P 4th goon reaches the nat choke (he made his 2 extra gates after only 3 goons, delaying this 4th goon) (not common)


The game start times of each game I used were
+ Show Spoiler +

Snow vs Bogus on Sniper Ridge 1.31
Wooki vs Leta on Neo Ground Zero 1.48
Movie vs Light on Sniper Ridge 2.56
Bisu vs Hon Sin on Sniper Ridge 2.19
Trap vs Sharp on Sniper Ridge 1.52
Sun vs Bogus on Neo Ground Zero 1.39
Grape vs Fantasy on Neo Ground Zero 3.10
Dear vs Sea on Sniper Ridge 1.48
Stats vs Turn on Sniper Ridge 2.03
Horang2 vs Reality on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.39
Jangbi vs Last on Jade (3 goon expo) 2.05

Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
zimp
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Hungary955 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-10-25 20:14:25
October 25 2014 19:46 GMT
#23
You asked my opinion on this topic. I don't know if you got your results based only on vods, but i think they're pretty good, i mean my knowledge goes along with it.
Even though i'm not a protoss, so i can't tell you practical advices or experience, i can tell you what i heard and where can you read more.

So there are several modern pvt openings, some of them are widespread among koreans because the BJs taught the audience but they are not that used (or known) among non-koreans, except for the higher ranked people i guess. Maybe because foreigners like to cheese and vary the game more and because most of these 1 gate nex builds require at least decent or good micro. But as i said, i don't really know how to do these builds, just heard about them.

SKT1 protoss opening build is probably the most famous. It goes for the build that you referred to as 1 goon expo. Its an optimized build by skt1 tosses to hold off FD rush while still take an expansion faster than the T.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/21_Nexus
You can read more about this and it's variants here: (not the OP, thats a different one)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/391286-pvt-safe-fe-build

Horang2's build. It's what you referred to as 3 goon expo.
Learn the exact BO from Horang2 here (note that he is not scouting with probe, and pauses probe production sometimes):
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56072&key=3d09c3
A very high level toss once told me that he likes this build the most and he thinks its the best.

The 2 gate goon exp is pretty old and easy and well known, so instead of that here is a more modern tricky 2 gate build:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2_Gate_Range_Expand
more of that here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/222055-d-g-bisu-oovs-new-pvt-opening

There are other variations of 1 gate dragoon nex and 1 gate 0 dragoon nex and 1 gate zealot nex and others but those are not as good as this 3-4 that i wrote i think.

As a toss, to find out which one to pick depends on scouting, and - if knowing your opponent - mind game. The key is to know when to expect an attack and take an expansion as early as possible that you can still hold.
As a terran its quite important to recognize these builds in order to counter them properly. The terran arsenal includes the scv train being pulled, different marine count FDs, strong FDs, 2facts, etc. Choosing the optimal build is just the first step, you still have to do it, cause...
...A lot depends on the execution of the micro from both sides. Luck also has a role.

However, a lot of non-korean tvps are much different.Typical builds there are proxy gates, different types of nex firsts (1-2-3 zealot followup, cannon follow, goon followup), powergates followed by dt, proxy reavers, dt expands, and basic 2 gws.
agentzimp
TL+ Member
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
October 28 2014 23:05 GMT
#24
Thanks for sharing that, and for the replay.
Its 3 goon expo vs 1 base vult drop, P spawn at 1, T at 11 on FS.
Horang2 makes continuous probes and 3 goons up to 28. He then pauses probes briefly on 28 to make the nexus then robo immediately after.
After the 4th goon pops he starts his 2nd and 3rd gate.
He gets 5 goons from the first gate then a round of 3 goons, then a round of 3 zealots.
He gets 2 observers then shuttle.
It’s a great example of the opener. The rep doesn’t show anything beyond that cus Horang2 wins with it convincingly, its a short game.
Note that the round of 3 zealots was earlier than normal.
Also note that Horang2 is very stubborn with his pylon placement
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
zimp
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Hungary955 Posts
November 16 2014 04:17 GMT
#25
i found a rep among my packs showing the T1 double build (the 21 nexus)
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56097
agentzimp
TL+ Member
c3rberUs
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Japan11286 Posts
January 24 2015 15:26 GMT
#26
Thanks for the thread Cardinal, I'm getting smashed by 2 tank FDs and 2 Fac openings using this build lately.
WriterMovie, 진영화 : "StarCraft will never die".
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-31 00:02:47
January 30 2015 00:19 GMT
#27
Send some replays if you want c3rberUs. Also your post motivated me to post these micro maps, might interest you:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/476871-micro-map-pvt-goon

There isnt a '2 tank 8 marine' scenario for you, but there is 2 fac and mine expo.
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2298 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-02-01 08:23:12
February 01 2015 08:21 GMT
#28
On January 25 2015 00:26 c3rberUs wrote:
Thanks for the thread Cardinal, I'm getting smashed by 2 tank FDs and 2 Fac openings using this build lately.


gotta improve that goon micro. 2fac is hard to stop, but not impossible if you time your robo right and skip 2nd observer, get +3 gate asap, and 1 shuttle, try not to lose dragoons as the push is comming, is important that u delay by microing close to his expo, if you keep all your goon at your natural you insta lose vs 2 fact.
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
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