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On May 08 2006 17:51 Knickknack wrote:
Hum, I agree with most in that the first post is laregly theorycraft and also with shallows last post. By theorycraft, I mean that my main concern is that when someone reads it, it’s not going to help them play better significantly. I\'m very skeptical of any guide/comprehensive advice that does not start with (what I see as) the basis of good play, build efficiency and countering. Both of which your original post had very little of. What good is general advice if they don’t know the little things and how to apply them. For instance, what good is knowing to storm the clumps if someone does not even know basic build efficiency. And picking up things such as storm the clumps is quickly done. The problem with general advice is that its too vague. Ok storm the clumps thats great, now actually tell me how i can win more.
I understand your point Knickknack, but it wasn\'t my intention to write a complete PvZ guide. Also I think many game-parts such as ressource gathering, worker switching, required number of workers, macro issues have already been discussed a fair amount of times. So I didn\'t want to write this again. Anyhow, for this part of the game, once you know it, you have to play an train yourself to improve those points.
However I believe that Starcraft is more than just execution. If you are not good at execution, you will never get to a decent level. But once you reach a certain level of execution, strategy plays a very important part. Actually there are two levels: the first is knowing what to do when your opponent goes for a tactic X. This can maybe seen also as execution. And then comes the second level: it\'s all about finding new global strategies (excellents but very rare nowadays since so many ideas have already been tried) and new situational strategies. By those I mean a strategy that you can never focus in advance, but given a specific situation, while playing, you take your decision, and if right, it will be a gamewinner.
That said, if you want this to work, you have to absolutely know your units, and be open to not just stick with your overall strategy (even if you will do these very often), but also analyse your opponent and looking for specific weaknesses that could be exploited.
I\'ll come back to the topic. My initial post tried to make some parts of the matchup PvZ clearer, so that it will be easier to rapidly understand what\'s happening and to find dedicated counters. Therefore giving you the possibility of fine-tuning your global strategy, but also the possibility of new strategies (even if I doubt there will many) or situational strategies.
Second, my initial post was intended to give you my point of view, but foremost to get other opinions (because everyone has a different style and made different experiences) to elebarote some global ideas. Thanks goes to everyone who wrote useful answers, especially FA, but also cubedin, raider and Ilintar.
Knickknack, perhaps you know everything in this matchup an my post was pointless to you. Then I am very happy for you and see forward to hearing at a greater scale of you later on. If maybe you don't know everything (and I think there are a lot of people like that on this forum, me included), then it is a good occasion to get more indepth sights, by discussing this matchup. And think of those who can learn from "obvious" statements, which aren't perhaps obvious for everyone.
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I agree that your aim is more about 'global strategy,' while I tend to analyze builds and situations to figure out how to get the most out of those builds and situations. I admit that I tend to dismiss 'global strategy' in favor of focusing in on more specific things. The main reasons I dismiss 'global strategy' is because it seems to me that the 'global strategies' are more or less set after 8years or so and that when talking about 'global strategies' one is more detached from the game(thus theorycraft) and thus the explanations are vague and general. At this point, I believe analysis and trying to squeeze the most out of certain 'global strategies' pays bigger, and its easier for others to grasp in a way that will improve their play.
The main thing I got from this thread was the idea to try to break a contain without goons. I'ld always built a group or two of goons, but for those 12 goons, one could have about 12zeals and 5ht instead. Seems fine to me, but goons are still certainly good vs. sunks, and for keeping obs alive, and also vs. hydra/lurk.
That being said, it seems you’re earnestly trying to work things out and help the community, so I applaud you for that. I look forward to what you have to bring later on.
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Hey FA, just upload the rep to BR.com. I'll find it there and even rate it 
Just don't feel like installing all that junk for 1 rep 
I actually am very interested in watching it so thanks in advance.
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Sweden33723 Posts
Install? You don't need to install anything, just click the download link, choose free, write in the numbers they show and wait 30-60 seconds for the timer to count down ;p
And battlereports.com no longer allows these kinds of uploads IIRC.
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Ah, didn't realize that.
As for the second part, you can upload replays to BR.com just as well as before, the only thing you cannot do is link them externally. But yeah i got that to work.
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Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
This is how I play it.
If I dont know my opponent and its a 2 player map like ROV I will proxy gate and rape it up with 2 zealots and a probe.
Any 4 corner map you should 2 gate, and put gates by your ramp, but not too far away from your main.
One exception for me is on RHIII when the zerg is on the bottom left, I go gate forge, 2 zealots and a probe, cannon rush the natural, bring down another probe and follow it up with 3 cannons in his base using the pylon as a wall for my first cannon.
Also maps like azalea you could try gate forge or forge gate.
Basically when you secure your choke, tech to stargate and get 1 corsair, kill ovies and scout, if you only see hydras after u get ure second corsair, throw down a robo, expo with cannons and reavers, and opt for sair reaver.
If u see his hyrdas with ure first sair, cancel ure second and then go citadel, speed, templar archives, storm. Get observers as soon as u have the gas somewhere after storm.
After that play it out like rainbow with temp speedlot archon, and just make sure you have more bases then the zerg, play it sortof like PvT, if you control the map, and the majority of the gas expos, the zerg is fucked.
Constant temp drops is good.
After u get another expansion get some reavers.
Always scout for muta tech, if a zerg gets out 9 mutas or so and u dont notice, and your army isnt protecting your base, or you dont have any anti air you are fucked!
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
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On May 10 2006 11:19 beavis.smurf wrote:
Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
lol beavis.smurf you in NO WAY have the credibility to correct BigBalls pvz guide.
also you will not kill any good protoss players with mass hydras vs fast expo. if it were that simple, you wouldn't see any forge first expos in the pro leagues.
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 10 2006 11:19 beavis.smurf wrote:
Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
This is how I play it.
If I dont know my opponent and its a 2 player map like ROV I will proxy gate and rape it up with 2 zealots and a probe.
Any 4 corner map you should 2 gate, and put gates by your ramp, but not too far away from your main.
One exception for me is on RHIII when the zerg is on the bottom left, I go gate forge, 2 zealots and a probe, cannon rush the natural, bring down another probe and follow it up with 3 cannons in his base using the pylon as a wall for my first cannon.
Also maps like azalea you could try gate forge or forge gate.
Basically when you secure your choke, tech to stargate and get 1 corsair, kill ovies and scout, if you only see hydras after u get ure second corsair, throw down a robo, expo with cannons and reavers, and opt for sair reaver.
If u see his hyrdas with ure first sair, cancel ure second and then go citadel, speed, templar archives, storm. Get observers as soon as u have the gas somewhere after storm.
After that play it out like rainbow with temp speedlot archon, and just make sure you have more bases then the zerg, play it sortof like PvT, if you control the map, and the majority of the gas expos, the zerg is fucked.
Constant temp drops is good.
After u get another expansion get some reavers.
Always scout for muta tech, if a zerg gets out 9 mutas or so and u dont notice, and your army isnt protecting your base, or you dont have any anti air you are fucked!
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
..
What positive is there to say? Nice to see such a display of confidence (not really)?
No offense, but -_-;;
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I think it's only appropriate to see beavis post in BlackDevil's thread.
FA, I watched the rep, and that was some nice play by you, and I see what you mean. I just can't help but feel that the zerg should have had more units when you broke out. When you were done with his containment, you were pretty much down to 4 archons and a few zealots in the red, which is what I predicted would happen in earlier posts in this thread--that you break out but lose most of our army. The difference was that the zerg had nothing left once you got out. What is your opinion in that case? Did the zerg misplay it and should have been ready to make more troops sooner, or did it work out the way it was supposed to?
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BlackDevil. Stop avoiding everyone and post a friggin replay. your strats are great but im learning toss and i need to see some stuff in action. or if anyone else has some good reps vs this kind of zerg?
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Sweden33723 Posts
On May 10 2006 13:57 Raider wrote:
I think it's only appropriate to see beavis post in BlackDevil's thread.
FA, I watched the rep, and that was some nice play by you, and I see what you mean. I just can't help but feel that the zerg should have had more units when you broke out. When you were done with his containment, you were pretty much down to 4 archons and a few zealots in the red, which is what I predicted would happen in earlier posts in this thread--that you break out but lose most of our army. The difference was that the zerg had nothing left once you got out. What is your opinion in that case? Did the zerg misplay it and should have been ready to make more troops sooner, or did it work out the way it was supposed to?
Thx 
Hm, down to 4 archons from what? 5? I don't think I lost a lot at least ;p Some zealots but I only used about half my army.. Even if I lost most of what I used to break the contain, I killed about an equal amount (in worth) of his.
Anyway, that's why I think it's good vs a not so dedicated contain because well, it just works better than getting goons  You get more archons and more units in general + more gas left.
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EPT
