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PvsZ - Understanding this matchup
How many games have you played against the Swarm and gg'ed, because you were just overrun by Zerg masses?
How can you turn the odds against him?
What are the main problems against any Zerg player?
-Scouting problems (and therefore not knowing what the Zerg is up to)
-Dangerous Drops
-Simple masses of Units
-Lack of Detectors (Observers dying to Scourge and therefore giving no more detection against lurkers)
-Ultralisks
-Being contained
And that's about it. So how adressing these problems altogether?
Zerg's units have to be in masses to be effective. How fast do single Zerglings die? Do you fear 6 Mutalisks if you have 2 Cannons?
And that's where the Protoss advantages kick in. Once Zerg Units are grouped, they become vulnerable. Just use your weapons of massdestruction. PSI-Storm (but also Reavers) wait for a concentrated attack and then 4 well placed PSI-Storms cripple any attack early-mid game.Late Game? Just build more high Templars and storm even more.
Basically there are 2 phases for this to work.
Phase 1: Making the Zerg Units stack
*) In your own Base against a frontal attack: the best is to defend at a choke. If possible, narrow it with big buildings
like WarpGates.Place Photoncannons behind. Make the entrance narrow, so that the Zerg Units have to concentrate more. Leave little space inside your base to manouver for the Zerg.
*) When you're out on the battlefield, try using big fat troops, that can stand much damage. These are Archons, but also Zealots can stand much damage (because they are small and therefore get less damage from Hydralisks while doing full damage).Therefore forcing the Zerg to bring along a big army to beat that Archon-Zealot Army. The same concept works lategame with carriers.If you choose to use them, the Zergplayer will have to counter with mass hydralisks (if he goes for Terrors, there is a modification, i'll explain later)
Side note to Zerg armies flanking you: this isn't the problem, as long as the fat Archons gather groups of Zerglings around them, that can easily be PSI-Stormed. And Hydralisks are always quite easy to storm.
Phase 2: Mass Destroyers
Vs Zerglings either PSI-Storm or Reavers are good. Vs Hydralisks PSI-Storm is defenitely better.Thenn, you should have any kind of army (even small) to kill of the rest. Like I said just before, use Archons-Zealots.On open field, you can use Shuttle to transport your Reavers and/or high Templars.
Conclusion: So when fighting any Zerg Player, you'll need to be able to face large armies of Units. Because the Zerg's Minerals alwasy go to either Zerglings or Hydralisks or both, these 2 are the units that can be massed (this is less true for gas-expensive units). So dealing with them is a priority. And both phases are very important. If you don't make the Zerg unit's stack, he will attack at many different spots, and therefore your Mass Destroyers won't be effective. If you don't use mass destroyers, he will win any fight, because of superior numbers.
So this adresses the Problem of Zerg Mass Units.
If the Zerg decides to attack your bases instead of your army (happens quite often), directly or dropping, you should be able to hold off those attacks without your army. When you get a massive attack, this will be perhaps impossible, but the attack should cost the Zerg so much, that it will cripple him severly. If you want to do that, you have got to have a good amount of photon cannons and quite a bunch of high Templars. If you've got 6-8 Cannons +4-5 high Templars defending a base, it will cost the Zerg Player very much, if he decides to attack such a base. And what you defenitely should do is counterattack. Send just the necessary amount of units to finish off the rest of the attack (maybe a few archons and some zealots) while you should attack with your main force. If the Zerg has wasted his units on that attack, your Archon-Zealot Army will rape at least a base of him, while hopefully with the initial cannons and storms, backed up by a few units, you can hold his attack.
Lack of detection, lack of scouts, dangerous drops.
These are 3 other problems and maybe 3 reasons you want to build Corsairs. Air superiority is quite important for you.
Corsairs in adequate groups (8+) adress any Scourge and Mutalisks. Therefore giving Obeservers a longer lifespan. And also Corsairs are Scouts themselves. If you see it coming, they can effectively intercept any drop.
But these are not the only reasons why Corsairs are that important. They can engage Overlords quite well, and therefore turn the game around, leaving the Zerg without detection. Sometimes this gives an opportunity to use dark Templars very effectively. (Anyone remember Nal-Ra countering Mondragon on Blizzard WWI?)
Or late game, if you got the money to go for disruptor net, this will give you an additional bonus against a Zerg ground
army, by cutting their power into small bits.
Being contained and lurker.
If the Zerg uses just Zerglins, Hydras to contain you, feel free (if you have the units) to engage him as it would be on any open ground: Archon-Zealots backed by PSi-Storm and/or Reavers.If the Zerg players decides to attack your base, your detetors are photoncannons, and lurkers aren't that effective against cannons. Because then again they would have to attack in numbers, therfore rendering themselves vulnerable to PSI-Storm. If you want to break the containment, there will be 2 possibilites.If the Lurkers are few (<4), then just kill them directly with Archons and Zealots. Maybe soften them up with a PSI-Storm. But as soon as Lurkers become deadly to Zealots (this is when there are many lurkers), you can use PSI-Storm at will. Got an observer Killing PRoblem? Research either speed or sight range upgrade for observers.(if you don't have corsairs). If you have Corsairs, adress the problem itself by protecting Obervers against scourge.
Breaking out gets so quite easy. First have adequate detection.And then break out. If there are many Zerg Units, PSI-Storm, otherwise you should win any direct battle.
Ultralisks
They are about the same as Archons.They can take quite some hits, but so they do much less damage than Zerglings. So you
still take care of Zerglings as before. And once all his supporting army is dead (Zerglins and Hydralisks), you can quite easily overcome those fat beasts.
Dark Swarm
Just makes your ranged units unable to deal any damage. But as your main damage is dealt by PSI-Storm, Reavers, this shouln'd be a real issue.Also note that both, Zealots and Archons work under Dark Swarm.
Last but not least: Dark Archons.
They are quite expensive (if you already have all the above units). But once you can get them, it's nearly GG. Feedback any Queens (if some are used) and defilers. Maelstorm any bunch of Ultralisks or Air Units. And why not mindcontrol Queens, defilers, ultralisks, lurker??? But I would say that maelstorm (in combination with PSI-Storm) can be quite a game-winner.
Some last thoughts
Dragoons: I thinks a few can be ok. But why would you want them? The Gas is better used in templars.Because you will build them to attack lurkers, and here PSI-Storm is better. After a Lurker has been stormed once, it is good to have some Goons, to kill it, but for that purpose alone, you should not get too many. Their Gas should go as said in h.Temps or corsairs, their Minerals in zealots, Cannons or Corsairs. Maybe a reaver.
Dark Templar: they are good when used as surprise, when you got aircontrol with Corsairs.
How getting to all that? This is maybe the most difficult part.And i think there are many answers. From opening with a FE, to harressing with a 2Gate proxy-build, there are many possibilities. But as an easy rule, you should get a good economy running and perhaps start with getting a combination of 1-2 Corsairs and high Templar (which can be morphed into an Archon, if you suspect an Mutalisk attack).And if needed add Corsairs, otherwise go out, with that army when you are sure that you can keep your expansions (like I said before with PSI-Storm and Cannons). When being contained, try to do something useful: expand with a Shuttle (perhaps an Island, perhaps an unscouted base). Once the Cannons are up, and a few Templars are there, it will be pretty ugly for the Zerg to get it back. Or while being contained, make some high Templar drops do PSI-Storm his drones. Zerg players don't really appreciate that.
Ok. As anything, this isn't perfect and so I would really like to hear comments on it. If you have something constructive to say, well everybody would love to hear it. But if it is just flame, then you are just letting everyone loose his time.
BlackDevil
Edit:
As I see quite some sceptical minds here, maybe instead of pointing out that this post is not perfect,which helps nobody (anyhow, who can pretend to be perfect at Starcraft?), what about putting in some ideas of yours, like what you would do differently in certain situations, what units you will handle in a different way, and how?
Like that this thread is a starting point for a good discussion which will be useful for everyone.
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On May 06 2006 13:41 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Posts 14
very true
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As a zerg player you've basically told me to use queens and parasite heh and ensnare to see where an army might be, scouting, more speed than corsairs, etc. But this was excellent dossier-type reading.
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Well done on making a well written and long post but:
-Most of your counter is just PSI storm/ or archons, if you couldn't make unlimited amounts of both pvz would be easy.
If I contain you with hydra/lurker (I won't make many lings unless i see goons) then you say to break out with PSI storm and archon/zealot, you're only going to have your natural and to make enough of them to break a contain will be difficult considering.
A: I'm going to pick off any hts in the front who try to storm my lurkers with 12 hydra (Most people storm the hydra with usually kills 2-3 and damages the rest) and hydra can also pick off observers.
(Note when I do all this I scout all free expands so you can't take a main without fighting for it)I don't believe I have seen anyone without goons break my lurker contain if I set it up well.
B: I think you vastly underestimate hydras ability to dodge storm, yeah my macro suffers but charging in a choke with 40 hydra i need to micro them hardcore and I pick off your hts too.
C: I think hydra/ensnare maybe w/ a few lurkers might be an increbibly strong counter to archon/lot, just ensnare + mass hit and run, lurks will do alot of damage too.
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Thanks for those useful comments.
@tKd_
I agree. Queens are useful. With some micro, perhaps you can kill them with your Corsairs.Otherwise just ignore them. If the Zerg Player invests a great amount of ressources into queens, then you could maybe consider building a Dark Archon. Feedback is a great spell and doesn't need to be researched.
@Slayer91
It is true that you don't have enough gas at the beginning to build both Archons and hight Templars en masse. I would suggest to use mainly Zealots (at that stage of the game) as a meatshield, maybe backed up by 1 archon. So you can get plenty of gas for your h.Temps. When you get a decent amount of high Temps, start spending your money on Archons if he goes for Zerglings (and later Ultralisks). Stick with h.Temps if he builds more Hydralisks.
A- As PSI-Storm has a higher range than Hydras or Lurkers, a Protoss Player should be able to use it without loosing his h.Templar. As for the Observers, get either sight range, either speed upgrade.
B- This is the reason why the choke has to be as small as possible. And also the reason why a Protoss player should build enough h.Temps. 4 sometimes just aren't enough.
C- If you got enough PSI-Storms and Zealot Speed Upgrade, you sould own. It's the storm that takes care of the hydralisks, while the Zealots clear up. The same goes against lurkers. While 2-3 aren't really a problem, more will be eliminated by PSI-Storm.
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BlackDevil, do you have reps of you PvZing?
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Basically, what people seem to be saying is that they think you are a newb and your strat post sucks.
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On May 06 2006 15:14 Raider wrote:
Basically, what people seem to be saying is that they think you are a newb and your strat post sucks.
I nuked myself.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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Instead of posting a rep of mine, may I suggest some much better players doing this?
Uzoo MSL (21/7/2005) - Reach Vs Chojja @Rush Hour
Archons + PSI-Storm going into an Carrier + Archon + PSI-Storm and even Maelstorm
Sky Proleague (21/1/2006) - Gorush Vs Stork @Neorequiem
Cannons backed by Reavers and PSI-Storm going into Carriers (meatshield) backed by PSI-Storm +Corsair Air-Control
And most recently:
ShinHan OSL2 (Week 2.2) - July Vs Rock
Small Chokes, many Cannons, some Archons and Mass PSI-Storm
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Hmm good effort, but very missleading at times. Im realy not trying to be mean, but I think you have a little way to go before writing guides 
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Hmm, I see some sceptical minds here.
Hey, maybe instead of pointing out that this post is not perfect,which helps nobody (anyhow, who can pretend to be perfect at Starcraft?), what about putting in some ideas of yours, like what you would do differently in certain situations, what units you will handle in a different way, and how?
Like that this thread is a starting point for a good discussion which will be useful for everyone.
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blackdevil i think you theorycraft too much, and ill tell you why:
1.- making zerg's units stack: smart zerg wont run all his army into a choke with high templars around. (maybe if there are some mutas picking off ht's, then yes)
2.-mass destroyers: they're very very expensive, templars are very gas heave, and reavers are gas+mineral heavy, plus they're hard to micro. maybe leave this for experienced players who can decent micro 
3.- dangerous drops: you either make sairs, or ht. you cant have many of both so: you have corsairs = zerg goes more hydra, you have more ht= zerg drops scourge ling lurk, and your detection is bye bye.
4.- ultras: well, 4 gas zerg with ultras is very tough to fight, you need to mass archons, because even if lings do a lot of damage, ultras too, they eat zealot, and zerg can just eat zealots and run, and mass enough ultras to just overrun you. (lings are produced way faster than zealot)
5.-dark swarm: only units that can fight here: zealots/dts/reavers. Archons only do like 5 splash damage under swarm, agreed with Dark archons
6.- goons: goons are a pain in the ass when they have enough space to run, they kill ultras =(
****HOWEVER****
what you post is good, but think also as zerg, you're pointing out counters to stupid zergs who would just select + a + left click. Of course zerg WILL make some mistake, thats where you take advantage
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i cant tell if he wants advice or is telling us things we basically already know.
also im pretty sure toss players dont leave 4-5 HTs in their base JUST IN CASE the zerg attacks. if they can afford that they wouldve won a long time ago. they just use a moblie army to defend against a base attack then go on to fuck the zerg if they kill the zerg's army.
i would say maybe 1-2 Hts in a base. most likely one for defense against a drop?
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On May 06 2006 17:00 Hypnotize wrote:
i cant tell if he wants advice or is telling us things we basically already know.
also im pretty sure toss players dont leave 4-5 HTs in their base JUST IN CASE the zerg attacks. if they can afford that they wouldve won a long time ago. they just use a moblie army to defend against a base attack then go on to fuck the zerg if they kill the zerg's army.
i would say maybe 1-2 Hts in a base. most likely one for defense against a drop?
For all I know it depends on the zerg-,- If he constantly does nothing but stab then why wouldn't you leave that many?
If you are 200/200 it's no big deal.. My point is you must realize it's to theorycraft to say "leave x static defence"
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On May 06 2006 13:58 Night[Mare] wrote:very true
Um, what does this matter?
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On May 06 2006 15:41 dream-_- wrote:Hmm good effort, but very missleading at times. Im realy not trying to be mean, but I think you have a little way to go before writing guides
He says it's not perfect, and open for discussion. If you have anything better to say, then say it, hm?
I think he gave a nice little layout against basic zerg players.
On May 06 2006 15:28 BlackDevil wrote:
Instead of posting a rep of mine, may I suggest some much better players doing this?
Uzoo MSL (21/7/2005) - Reach Vs Chojja @Rush Hour
Archons + PSI-Storm going into an Carrier + Archon + PSI-Storm and even Maelstorm
Sky Proleague (21/1/2006) - Gorush Vs Stork @Neorequiem
Cannons backed by Reavers and PSI-Storm going into Carriers (meatshield) backed by PSI-Storm +Corsair Air-Control
And most recently:
ShinHan OSL2 (Week 2.2) - July Vs Rock
Small Chokes, many Cannons, some Archons and Mass PSI-Storm
And the game between Stork and Gorush isn't really viable for non-pro players, especially people who aren't Nal_rA or Stork. They are probably the 2 guys who can actually pull that shit off against a macro zerg like Gorush. Even Reach can't corsair/reaver well.
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haha reach's sair will get pwnt by burrow anytime :D
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Nice post BlackDevil, but most of this is basic stuff that every toss should be aware of... And every zerg too 
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United States10774 Posts
Ya thanks for the effort, but just basic stuff that every decent player should know...also you point that HTs/Archons are needed MANY times. Trust me. every toss wants them. However, they don't always have the gas to afford them.
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Too bad all the uber-gosu strats are already covered in this little beauty:
TRADE SECRET
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On May 06 2006 18:26 WhatisProtoss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2006 13:58 Night[Mare] wrote:On May 06 2006 13:41 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Posts 14
very true Um, what does this matter?
It means the OP is a newb. I've seen more insightful posts on the Battle.net forum.
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No offense but this is WAY too general. Basic rules:
1. Use gas wisely. Yes, gas. Use it wisely. Waste your gas on the wrong type of unit and you lose. Everyone can mass zeal+goon but it's the gas-heavy units that make a difference. So choose wisely.
2. Expand. Some players go for 1 expo after each battle won. I think that's a bit over-doing it, but the main idea is taht you should not get too far back in expos, because as the zerg reaches tier 3, you're in deep ...jelly. Not only are upgraded Ultra+Ling cheap and efficient, but plague also joins the fun. Which if used properly cripples your army and overthrows the ballance dramaticly.
3. UPGRADE. I cannot stress this enough. 1st upgrade the attack, then armor and shield. Attack is vital especially vs lings. lvl 3 attack pwnz lings because zeals kills them in 2 and archons in 1 hit no matter what upgrades they have. And cracklings do HEAVY damage in late game. Armor (and eventually shield) are also of big importance since most zerg units have very little damage. (fully upg ling - 8 - cutting this down by 3 makes it about 38% less efficient) you WILL suffer the consequences of not up-grading armor in late game. Zeals will become yet even more worthless and lings can take them out with no other support.
4. Protect your expos. In late game this is a must, since lings are cheap and deadly. 2 ultras for initial damage absorbtion and a bunch of lings make ashes of your cannons. Make sure you have storm/reav (reav is expensive though) and make sure you target the zerglings.
5. Try to take down expos early. Nobody likes to fight sunks. Try to scout often, try to harass. And whatever you do don't let Z dictate the pace of the game. If he can do whatever he feels like, there's very little you can do to stop him. Even if you've secured say... 3-4 bases and he has taken 6-7 you're toast. Late game zerg is too powerful if he's let loose.
Uffff... please be more specific.
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On May 06 2006 22:01 SaNteria wrote:Too bad all the uber-gosu strats are already covered in this little beauty: TRADE SECRET
sry but thats the worst sc guide in the world
firebats vs protoss rofl,
best counter to mutas: scout ROFL MORE
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Nightmare you fucking retard, you wouldn't know sarcasm if it penetrated your ass.
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poor nightmare he just wanted to say something ... 
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lol! I'm sorry but how could you possibly think that the original post was anything but sarcastic. guess its a language thing :/
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Sweden33719 Posts
Reply to the original post, general PvZ
Well..
First of all I want to correct a factual error - archons are affected by dark swarm, they deal only splash damage (meaning their total damage to fully upgraded ultralisks under a swarm goes down to 5).
Second, you should only play archon/zealot/templar if you are facing a zerg who plays ling/lurker or if you are going to try and break the zerg's contain quickly/he's trying to lurker contain after having failed to end the game with a fast hydra rush.
The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so having a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers.
What makes archon/zealot work vs lurker ling is that he really has nothing that can actually stop your templars from storming to weaken the lurkers, or anything that can really kill the archons.
Also, dragoons - once they get a couple of upgrades - work very, very well vs hydra/lurker (supported by storm), they are basically far more cost effecient than zealot/archon in this case.
Now, if the zerg player is doing a non-committed contain using/hydra lurker, then a relatively low amount of goons might be advised - however, keep in mind that if he isn't committing to his contain, he's most likely sunken/spore/lurkering an expansion - and if you want to ever break one of those by means of ground assault you will need dragoons.
So, the more committed he is to his contain, the more dragoons you want to use, because if he committs to containing he wont be able to produce tons of hive units (unless he succeeds in containing you and takes the map) and you will have a window of opportunity where you can run over anything he has with your superiorly upgraded (most likely, since he's had to spend so much gas on the contain), superiorly composed and bigger army (preferably just before his economy from his bases kick in/before he gets ultralisk armor upgrade, they are really weak before that).
Now, if he isn't committing, then obviously, as I said, he's going for a quick hive or sunkening up somewhere (needs to be scouted, which, if he isn't committed, shouldn't be too hard), in this case you will need the gas for archons / maybe sairs+dark templars (more on them later).
And in this case storming your way ahead is definitely going to be plausible as generally when a zerg is going for a quick hive he won't be making hydras (slows him down and leaves him with little gas).
Corsair DT
This is a very good counter to those pesky zergs who quickly jump up to hive with a minimal amount of expansions (perhaps 2 island and a mineral only on LT, or perhaps only 1 island and a mineral only) because they will have invested everything they have in upgrades + ultra/ling + sunkens (sometimes they might not even have speed upgrade for their overlords), so your sairs will reign supreme, your DTs will stop him from securing the map.
Your sairs will often enable you to drop his island (generally scourges would prevent this), although sometimes he will have sunkened it already), or at least a 4 dt drop in his main (devastating).
One other staple in the play of such a zerg is their drops - almost completely nullified as they won't be able to get through your sairs or if they do, dark templars will help you immensly in cleaning up a dropped base.
So let's recap, going sair/dt vs a fast hive/low expo zerg accomplishes this:
*Air superiority which can be used to take out any islands/drop main
*The means to expand and prevent him from dropping them.
*Forces him to start investing in hydras (which are going to severely weaken his fighting power and make your most likely low on archons army that much more effective since hydras without the upgrade advantage are down right weak) + he can't really counter with scourge/devourer as he doesn't have the minerals for devourers or the gas for scourges not to mention the 1+ air attack upgrade you invested in, right?
When NOT to use it;
*If the zerg player has another main.
This isn't ALWAYS true, but it will be a LOT less effective because now he'll actually have the economy and stability required to churn out hydras and actually fight.
Storm Drops
Yeah, they are lovely and shit but if you are being contained by a zerg you should make DAMN sure he doesn't have scourges, because if he does the likelihood of him having posted a few of them in strategic locations across the map is VERY high - at least use a corsair to spot (even though it can be kind of a tell tale sign of a drop coming -,.-).
If the zerg player opened with a hydra rush or is going mass hydras then storm drop is devastating so knock yourself out (also, when fighting hydras you can just mass and upgrade until you reach critical mass because hydras aren't as strong in large numbers and with lots of upgrades).
So yeah, storm drop and mass at nat, move out and win in one attack.
About corsairs/archons early game
You should strive to never make more than 1 corsair early game unless you are doing something special which requires more, but in general if you open 1 gate -> sair -> dt -> expo, it will only slow you down needlessly and perhaps cost you the game as storm is crucial.
Now, sometimes, perhaps following early setbacks or whatever, a second corsair might be required to survive but keep in mind that this isn't the ideal situation - in the ideal situation you should be able to sair -> make templars and get storm + cannons, an archon shouldn't even be needed (although again, use your own judgement) as cannon + corsair should be able to fight off the mutalisks until you get storm (which should be soon after the mutalisks arrive) and the 1 or 2 dts you have should be able to fight off any lings (together with the cannons + 2-3 zealots/goon you should have).
If he's doing a 2 hatch muta build then you might be forced to make a corsair, but on the other hand, vs a 2 hatcher it's also safe to invest more heavily in cannons than vs a more economic 3 hatch zerg who you'll want to cut as many corners vs as possible (ie never waste - live on the edge).
Stuff
Archons are the kings of low economy. In the early game of a match where both sides have been very aggressive, archons reign supreme, hands down the best unit, dark templars are quite awesome as well as their ability to quickly kill is going to be felt, as well as the lack of mobile detection (or at least as much mobile detection ).
In late game/a game where both sides have lost their expansions or are just low on probes/drones etc, there are no units more effective than the archon and dark templar.
Basically, they are fucking godly.
Dark Archons
Personally, I don't use them except if I'm going carriers in which case they are close to a must. See, there is no better counter to zerg air than these beauties, devourers, mutalisks and scourges all have a tendency to stack on top of eachother so, unlike when fighting ground units, you will get a high return when maelstroming (the units are also generally more expensive).
I don't recommend them as a unit to fight ultralisks personally (unless you are engaging in a war of patience, ie you are in a stalemate and want to steal his units one by one).
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Bosnia-Herzegovina1381 Posts
And the thread makes a stunning comeback!
Nice post FA
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Excellent post FA, you made many situations extremly clear.
A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment.
The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers.
Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons.
Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy.
For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations.
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United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
i dont want to sound harsh so i'll say that blackdevil definately put great effort into writing the post and it was a great reading experience so credit goes to him for that
but... this is not TL for nothing.
yea the thread makes a swerve back on track after FA makes his contribution.
seeing as you're from sweden... tack ska du ha!
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On May 06 2006 22:41 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:
No offense but this is WAY too general. Basic rules:
3. UPGRADE. I cannot stress this enough. 1st upgrade the attack, then armor and shield. Attack is vital especially vs lings. lvl 3 attack pwnz lings because zeals kills them in 2 and archons in 1 hit no matter what upgrades they have. And cracklings do HEAVY damage in late game. Armor (and eventually shield) are also of big importance since most zerg units have very little damage. (fully upg ling - 8 - cutting this down by 3 makes it about 38% less efficient) you WILL suffer the consequences of not up-grading armor in late game. Zeals will become yet even more worthless and lings can take them out with no other support.
The upgrade thing is correct for archons, but not for zealots. As they do 2x8 damage, upgrades will make those go up by one each (2x9, 2x10, 2x11). The zergling's armor goes up by 1 but that 1 counters each of the separate zealot's attacks, so effectively fully upgraded zealot vs lings are of the same strength as in the start of the game (zergling attack +1 counters armor+1 & shield+1). The difference lies in the adrenal glands upgrade, this makes the zergs better.
For archons, damage goes 30-33-36-39, the last one will always kill a 35hp+3armor ling.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 06:58 pyrogenetix wrote:
i dont want to sound harsh so i'll say that blackdevil definately put great effort into writing the post and it was a great reading experience so credit goes to him for that
but... this is not TL for nothing.
yea the thread makes a swerve back on track after FA makes his contribution.
seeing as you're from sweden... tack ska du ha!
Haha, nice swedish ;D
Unfortunately I dunno how to say you're welcome in chinese, all I can remember from taking some kung fu classes 2 years ago is Ni hao and xie xie ;(
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 06:42 BlackDevil wrote:Excellent post FA, you made many situations extremly clear. A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment. Show nested quote +The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers. Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons. Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy. For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations.
Well, the problem as I see it is that if you do this he can play hydra lurker and be succesful, kind of like it's good to go hydra lurker vs SK Terran in ZvT.
But, well, I suppose it's also a question of style and personal preferences =]
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I'd like to point out that it's "maelSTROM" not maelstorm.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 08:15 Lisk wrote:
I'd like to point out that it's "maelSTROM" not maelstorm.
Ah, oops =] I'm never sure which it is :D
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On May 07 2006 07:31 aseq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2006 22:41 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:
No offense but this is WAY too general. Basic rules:
3. UPGRADE. I cannot stress this enough. 1st upgrade the attack, then armor and shield. Attack is vital especially vs lings. lvl 3 attack pwnz lings because zeals kills them in 2 and archons in 1 hit no matter what upgrades they have. And cracklings do HEAVY damage in late game. Armor (and eventually shield) are also of big importance since most zerg units have very little damage. (fully upg ling - 8 - cutting this down by 3 makes it about 38% less efficient) you WILL suffer the consequences of not up-grading armor in late game. Zeals will become yet even more worthless and lings can take them out with no other support.
The upgrade thing is correct for archons, but not for zealots. As they do 2x8 damage, upgrades will make those go up by one each (2x9, 2x10, 2x11). The zergling's armor goes up by 1 but that 1 counters each of the separate zealot's attacks, so effectively fully upgraded zealot vs lings are of the same strength as in the start of the game (zergling attack +1 counters armor+1 & shield+1). The difference lies in the adrenal glands upgrade, this makes the zergs better. For archons, damage goes 30-33-36-39, the last one will always kill a 35hp+3armor ling.
I was just going to point that out.
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I never knew that zealots deal 2x8. Man this sux. How am I supposed to figgure out these things if they're not even on the b.net unit stats page? Could you please tell me what other units have this kind of damage? (I recall firebats doing 3x8 but that's about it)... I must say I'm very dissapointed. But I guess it makes sense now, cuz zeals really suck in late game and I never figgured out why exactly.
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staredit shows a max hits figure
Other ones include:
Goliath ground to air missiles = 2x10 (+2)
Possibly scout air to air missiles 2x14 (+1)
I think thats all
And yes, zeals suck late game because their upgrades are completely cancelled by the ling ones, while ultra armour is -12 dmg.
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Belgium9945 Posts
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On May 07 2006 06:42 BlackDevil wrote:Excellent post FA, you made many situations extremly clear. A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment. Show nested quote +The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers. Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons. Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy. For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations.
I don't know if its possible to break out of a commited contain by hyrda lurk by a good zerg w/ just zeal archon templar. And I really don't understand how you manage to protect ur obs from hydra scourge with just archon and small amounts of goon. Again, a rep would be greatly appreciated and clear up a lot of questions.
Btw, thanks for your substantial and well structured posts!
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On May 07 2006 11:04 RaGe wrote:
theorycraaaaaaaft
May be, but now that I found this out, I'll stop making so many zeals and use the extra minerals for fields of cannons. No use getting zealots if they deal 8 damage to ultras, and need 3 hits to kill lings.
Also, a small correction to Frozen Arbiter's post: the archon doesn't deal just splash under swarm unless there's only one-two units around it. If it fires at units at his maximum range, the units in between the attacker and the reciever will get the full punch of the attack. Might sound complicated but all you have to do is attack the 2nd/3rd row of lings, and the first row will get killed. Just like you do to kill burrowed lurks with tanks under swarm ^_^.
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2 things
Zeal/archon/temp will get raped by lurk contain, and not because there is no way to protect the obs, but because all it will take is about a dozen hydras or 2 dozen lings holding off the protoss force. 2 shots from 6+ lurks, and all the zealots go POOF.
Second to FA regarding DAs, I think they are great to use against ultra/crax. You can freeze a clump of zerg troops in the middle, making the rest go around in thin line, making them easier to kill, while you storm the frozen clump 2-3 times, making sure they die as soon as maelstrom done. You don't really need more than 1, maybe 2 DAs for this, which is not that great of an investment later in the games. Plus DAs barely ever die since they are fast and have 200 shields, so the few you make will probably last you the rest of the game, win or lose. Lastly, DAs are useful in feedbacking defilers (in fact if you are good at multitasking, you can keep an eye on zerg forces using obs and use speed shuttles to ferry in DAs and feedback defilers/storm drones/whatever, though only do this if there isnt much scourge around and you are sure that this won't hurt your macro/paying attention to other details).
In general, I believe that the more tech toss uses late game vs Z, the stronger he will be. zeal/Archon is "ok", Zeal/Archon/DA or Zeal/Archon/reaver is good, zeal/archon/DA/reaver/temp simply owns if u can control all that, which isn't all that hard actually. That's my experience, but of course you can also say this is theorycraft.
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What i'm wondering is how you say you break out of lurk contain with lot/temp. If the lots go out first then they die to quickly before all the lurks get stormed, and if the temps go out first i have my advance group of 12 hydra to pick them off. (Rest stay just behind most of the lurks infront of back ones)Also the scourge don't hit the obs in your base, they wait till you come out with obs to detect lurks before flying in.(only a few of the lurks you will be able to see within cannon safety range)
/post rep pls!
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@Slayer91
If you have the courtesy of having a 12 Hydra group placed in order to intercept h.Temps, I think I could spare 1-2 storms to salute them.
To give you a general idea, I just storm the first group of units within storm range, and then proceed. If there are just spare units (like 2-3 Hydras), I engage them with my few Goons. (I have a small number: 2-3 most of the time to finish of Lurkers that have been stormed once.)
To get enough Gas to get all theses storms, I follow 2 rules:
1) I only build 2-3 Goons midgame
2) I only build 1-2 Archons midgame. More if the Zerg Players builds tons of Zerglings or if I start having a good group of h.Temps. (sth like 7+) Then lategame against ultralisks, they become necessary. But I tend to try net getting overgreedy and prefer having some Temps at my expansions to keep them alive.
3) And only when I got about all the Temps and Archons I want, I start going for some further support of my Zealon / Archon / h.Temps army. Dark Archons Vs ZergAirUnits of Ultralisks. Reavers Vs well defended Zerg Bases.
I'll explain a little more the concept about reavers:
My Archon /Zealot /h.temp Army basically keeps me alive on the battefield. But it is quite difficult to attack a well protected Zerg Base because SporeColonies can keep Observers out, thus making Lurkers quite strong. In that case I appreciate the Reaver's ranged attack. And not only do they help me break his defense, they help me furthermore against his army. Anyhow: don't forget the shuttle.
If he tries to storm the reaver: Archons defend against lings and mutas. And Mass-Psi Storm, mixed to a few Scarabs kills many Hydras.If you think he will be able to destroy your reaver, just load it into your shuttle (beware of Scourge although) and micro.
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If you have reps of you doing the above, I'd greatly appreciate it.
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All this theorycraft is making me wonder in late game if it is worth it to load zerglings onto overlords while fighting a protoss army with ultras and dropping them right on top of the army. Thus, it will be harder to micro if their army is weaker and storm won't massacre loads of lings without hitting the protoss army.
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Sweden33719 Posts
tKd_;
When I played vs Eliza, we were fighting over the 9 o clock expansion on luna, and since he had to run across the bridge to attack me, he'd lose a lot of units if he tried to attack, so he loaded a bunch of overlords with units and attacked + dropped the expo simultaneously (you can find the replay in the TL.net rep section, I think it's listed as Dream.t)PltO vs Proteur (reason I'm not keeping the aka secret anymore is because it's already been posted ).
I don't think dropping just lings would be worth it tho, as they'd just come out and die one by one most likely :>
As for reavers, they are awesome (especially on rush hour, where I usually make a second robo at my 2nd expo just because reaver+battery supported by cannons and good gateway placement + ht = best defence ever!
+ You'll be expanding @ the gas/mineral expansions closest to the empty main and from those expansions it's such a short walk for your reavers to the main.
If you try to snipe hts with 12 hydras, they'll probably get stormed, but if you use less (say 4-6~) then it will be quite cost effecient.
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It comes back to the fact that if all your opponent has is zeal/archon/ht you don't even need to worry about sniping obs, temps, or anything else because 8+ lurks will rape zeals. At best, the zeals will all be so damaged that the next 2 control groups of assorted zerg units will finish them. Add to that a couple scourge and 4-8 hydras dancing around picking off temps, and you got a situation where the zerg can contain the toss easily until he takes the entire map.
Bottom line is, zeal/archon/temp is not a viable way to break zerg contain. That's the reason why you see any decent toss player start goon range research and pump 6-12 goons as soon as they sense that the lurk containment is even a possibility. Anyone suggesting figting lurk contain with zeals/temps/archons is either very misguided of has not played zergs outside of pub games on b.net.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Hehe.
Raider, psi storm is not as bad vs lurkers as you think.. Fighting a lurker/ling contain with zealot/templar/archon is PREFERABLE to fighting it with goons.
Fighting a hydra/lurker containment with only zealot/archon/templar is HARD but you don't understand how it's done - you storm 2 lurkers, morph the hts as they run out of mana, send 2 zealots to kill the lurkers, repeat.
No, it's OBVIOUSLY not the preferred method but it IS possible (ie draco does it a lot, or at least used to).
If the zerg has 8 lurkers close together, psi storm will rape, if they are spread out some good storming + microing your zealots effeciently will make it possible to win. Again, it's preferable to have some (or a lot of) dragoons when fighting a zerg who's using hydra/lurker (and by so doing, staying at lair for a while longer than a zergling lurker user would).
I think getting dragoons is better if the zerg is really gung ho about containing you, but if the contain isn't committed, getting dragoons is a waste of gas sometimes.
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United States5262 Posts
Do what PJ does, play Terran when against a Zerg.
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to FA.
Sure you are right, if the zerg just brings a couple of lurks a sits them there without much support just to hold you back until you get obs, they you can kill them with just about anything you have. We are talking about actualy lurker containment here, where there are 8+ well-placed lurks (seriously, when was the last time u saw a decent zerg bunch up his containing lurks?) are supported by some troops-either a bunch of lings or some hydras.
Yes, I know about storm/sacrifice a zeal to kill the weakened lurker, but while you spend 1 storm and 1 zeal per lurk, zerg will take another 2 bases and defend them, which is what lurk containment is all about. Ranged goons allow you to aggressively break out of the containment sooner and have you be in the position to stop any expansion attempts before they are fortified. If you want to be careful, you can storm a couple of lurks and finish them off with a goon shot each (without losing the goon I might add). I would not do that to more than 1-3 lurks though because I would much rather use that storm on the mass of non-lurker troops that attack your troops to keep you away from said lurks. In fact, you can aim storms to hit the zerg troops as they pass over the lurks to get two for one so to say. But that's beside the point. The point is figting any significant number of lurkers with zeal/archon/temp is not the way to beat a zerg who has even a general idea of what he is doing.
Finally, goons aren't as bad to have with your army as you make it out to be, so I hardly think they are a "waste of gas." Until zerg gets dark swarm, they kick quite a bit of ass.
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I'm still frustrated about the zeal's split damage.
Bascily, all you can do in late game is get a field of cannons and as many gas expos as you can. Otherwise zeals will get totally raped. DT works well vs ultra/ling but DTs cost gas. Archons cost a lot of gas too. Templars needed to storm lings cost gas. Reavers cost gas, and even goons cost some gas. So what am i to do with all the excess mineral? Get zeals that deal a massive 8 damage to ultras? with FULL upgrades? Zeal vs ling in late game is hilarious. Especially if you don't have lvl 3 armor: 12 lings kill 5-6 zeals easily (without micro on the toss site, just surround-attack). And 12 lings = 300 mins while 6 zeals = 600 mins.
I've seen some replays where the toss player actually kills about 80-90 lings with 5-6 consecutive storms while they were pouring in. The rest of the forces were battling ultras, and toss won with minimal damage. Then he tired to attack and was still over-run (it was some koreean guy vs sen).
So please, someone give me some ideas about what to do with all the minerals.. cuz zeals are not cool anymore
Edit: just to make sure you understand me: I'm not trying to remove them from my army completely, but usually, as I get a lot of probes (probably more than I have to) I end up with tons of minerals after a while, so my army consists of 75% zeals and other forces. So what I want to do is that that procentage to about 35-40. What would be the right solution? Less army/more canns? More goons? DT+Zeal? Anything?
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To cubedin. If you have extra minerals, make more zealots and cannons to defend your expos.
Zealots are great at any point in the game because they are the only unit that stands between the enemy and your precious archons/reavers/goons/temps/whatever. Archons are great when they attack from among zealots, or from behind zealots, where they cannot be surrounded. Reavers also do great when they fire into the melee safely from behind the front lines. Get my drift here? Zealots should comprise the bulk of your army because they will support your other units. In addition to that, their damage is not as bad as you make it out to be. Also, you have to use them properly. Yes, pure zeals will not be cost-effective against crax, but that's the point of using good units combinations. You should never find yourself in a situation where you have 6 zeals against 12 crax that surround you. With archon splash, zeals still kill equally-upgraded crax in 1-2 hits, which is nice.
In summary, the answer to your question is that if you find yourself losing late PvZ, you probably don't have enough zealots
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On May 07 2006 21:48 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote:
I'm still frustrated about the zeal's split damage.
Bascily, all you can do in late game is get a field of cannons and as many gas expos as you can. Otherwise zeals will get totally raped. DT works well vs ultra/ling but DTs cost gas. Archons cost a lot of gas too. Templars needed to storm lings cost gas. Reavers cost gas, and even goons cost some gas. So what am i to do with all the excess mineral?
I just wanted to stress out sth: while Reavers cost gas, they are much more mineral intensive. A Reaver coste 200M100G, add 5 Scarabs and it will be 275M100G. And I don't even speak about adding a shuttle costing 200M.
The ratio 275M100G is cheaper in gas than a Goon, a little bit more expensive than a Hydralisk.
Or in other terms: 2 Goons = 1 Reaver, 2h.Temps = 3 Reaver (in gas costs). So if you really have an excess in minerals, I suggest adding some Reavers.100Gas for one of those Killermachines isn't that much. And 4 Reaver (400Gas) will be much more of a trouble than 8 Goons. This is quite awesome against a Ling-Lurker Attack, provided you can keep the Reavers alive. Block the army with Zealots (you said you have enough minerals) +Archons, and let the reavers kick in.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 18:33 jkillashark wrote:
Do what PJ does, play Terran when against a Zerg.
He doens't anymore!
On May 07 2006 19:21 Raider wrote:
to FA.
Sure you are right, if the zerg just brings a couple of lurks a sits them there without much support just to hold you back until you get obs, they you can kill them with just about anything you have. We are talking about actualy lurker containment here, where there are 8+ well-placed lurks (seriously, when was the last time u saw a decent zerg bunch up his containing lurks?) are supported by some troops-either a bunch of lings or some hydras.
Yes, I know about storm/sacrifice a zeal to kill the weakened lurker, but while you spend 1 storm and 1 zeal per lurk, zerg will take another 2 bases and defend them, which is what lurk containment is all about. Ranged goons allow you to aggressively break out of the containment sooner and have you be in the position to stop any expansion attempts before they are fortified. If you want to be careful, you can storm a couple of lurks and finish them off with a goon shot each (without losing the goon I might add). I would not do that to more than 1-3 lurks though because I would much rather use that storm on the mass of non-lurker troops that attack your troops to keep you away from said lurks. In fact, you can aim storms to hit the zerg troops as they pass over the lurks to get two for one so to say. But that's beside the point. The point is figting any significant number of lurkers with zeal/archon/temp is not the way to beat a zerg who has even a general idea of what he is doing.
Finally, goons aren't as bad to have with your army as you make it out to be, so I hardly think they are a "waste of gas." Until zerg gets dark swarm, they kick quite a bit of ass.
No, there's no need to get goons except vs dedicated hydra lurker containments which is what I've been saying all along, and if you are really crazy you CAN break those too, using just zealot/templar/archon.
You spend your gas on dragoons and you'll find yourself lacking archons/gas in your army when his hive is up (which will be up very quickly when using lurker ling and not hydra lurker).
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Ok I got your points, however:
1) Rider: I played many matches, and I do know what zeals are about, however it recently happened that I was low on gas, and used armies like 20 zeals+2 archons+2 ht. And they get raped by ultra-ling. I wasn't producing gas fast enough to drastictly change my army layout, and the minor changes were not helping (3/6 dts weren't of much use if you forget about ht). I know I went wrong somewhere otherwise I should have gotten more gas, but still, zealos were utterly useless. When you have an army consisting of 50% zeals and 50% HT/DT/DA/Archon then yeah, go zeals, be meatshields, but when the other units are really low, you're in deep jelly with them.
Which brings us to:
2) Blackdevil: Yes, reavers would the best option, if it weren't for... Take a map like luna for instance, you have 4-5 expos, 3 with gas and 1-2 min only. Now an ultra+ling force can strike whereever you're low on defence, and reavers are REALLY hard to move around. If you get them to hold one area, you're getting attacked somewhere else. You can't really use them to defend two bases at once because of drop, and you can't get 10 of them to defend everything at once. That's my main problem with reavs.
Personally I'm getting more cannons and using templars in defence to kill the lings. Then just attack when I have enough gas-heavy units in my army to actually cause some damage. However a smart zerg will not use his forces on your cannons and will probably win the game anyway by over-resourcing you.
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Just run into more gateways and faster unit production. The faster you reinforce your army, the closest you are to win.
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Wow guys, thanks for making a really contructive thread!
@Blackdevil reavers are awesome imo! I was theorycrafting them before to break sunk/spore/gay/lurk
but using them must completly rape lurker/ling contain if you protect them with shuttle/battery (And without hydra its pretty damn hard to kill a reaver. (They were nasty used against me before and i'm a high upgrade hydra/ling oriented zvp player!)
I must say i'm a more of a micro player so my hydras in front will storm dodge while trying to pick off temps,(Worst i lose usually is 6 hydra for 1-2 storm) that being said FA is right, i'll start using 4-6 abit more to make it easier to dodge/can leave them unattended mass macroing.
@Other posts Reavers /w speedshuttle won't be hard to move around, and if you're defending gas main/nats its obviously efficient.
Zealots are great! They act as a shield, they break the waves of ultra/ling, and hold them off well. archons might as well have twice as much hps with zeals in front. Zeals kill off stray craxs that didn't get stormed/archon splashed. and they don't cost gas, what else are you gonna spend that mins on? No point getting too many cannons.
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Make PvZ fair, let Dark Templars be able to use Maelstrom and Mind Control
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On May 06 2006 13:41 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Posts 14
who cares ?
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cubedin, what did he have when u had 20 zeals and 2 archons? It sounds like he simply had more money and more units.
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To FA, if you say you can break all but the most dedicated lurk contain with just zeal/archon/temp, show me a rep where that happens--a P breaking 6-8 lurks, and 1.5-2 control groups of other units with just zeal/archon and them being in good enough standing to go on and win the game. I would be interested in seeing that. Outside of my own experience, every game I watch of top players, as soon as the toss see lurks in any significant numbers, they start goon range research and make 6-12 goons. I also have not seen any of them go and break containment with zeal/archon/temp.
Also, having a few goons is not as bad as you make it out to be. 6 goons is 1 archon in gas, and they dogreat damage to ultras before zerg gets dark swarm, which should be after the first couple of engagements. Goon focus fire on ultras really helps toss when z is just rolling out his ultra/crax and does not have insane numbers of them.
Finally, in my experience, having several goons with the army allows me to break contain with barely any losses. This simply will not happen with zeal/archon/temp. But as I said, link to a rep where zeal/archon/temp break a decent, but not dedicated zerg contain and does well afterwards.
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To FA, if you say you can break all but the most dedicated lurk contain with just zeal/archon/temp, show me a rep where that happens--a P breaking 6-8 lurks, and 1.5-2 control groups of other units with just zeal/archon and them being in good enough standing to go on and win the game. I would be interested in seeing that. Outside of my own experience, every game I watch of top players, as soon as the toss see lurks in any significant numbers, they start goon range research and make 6-12 goons. I also have not seen any of them go and break containment with zeal/archon/temp.
Also, having a few goons is not as bad as you make it out to be. 6 goons is 1 archon in gas, and they dogreat damage to ultras before zerg gets dark swarm, which should be after the first couple of engagements. Goon focus fire on ultras really helps toss when z is just rolling out his ultra/crax and does not have insane numbers of them.
Finally, in my experience, having several goons with the army allows me to break contain with barely any losses. This simply will not happen with zeal/archon/temp. But as I said, link to a rep where zeal/archon/temp break a decent, but not dedicated zerg contain and does well afterwards.
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To FA, if you say you can break all but the most dedicated lurk contain with just zeal/archon/temp, show me a rep where that happens--a P breaking 6-8 lurks, and 1.5-2 control groups of other units with just zeal/archon and them being in good enough standing to go on and win the game. I would be interested in seeing that. Outside of my own experience, every game I watch of top players, as soon as the toss see lurks in any significant numbers, they start goon range research and make 6-12 goons. I also have not seen any of them go and break containment with zeal/archon/temp.
Also, having a few goons is not as bad as you make it out to be. 6 goons is 1 archon in gas, and they dogreat damage to ultras before zerg gets dark swarm, which should be after the first couple of engagements. Goon focus fire on ultras really helps toss when z is just rolling out his ultra/crax and does not have insane numbers of them.
Finally, in my experience, having several goons with the army allows me to break contain with barely any losses. This simply will not happen with zeal/archon/temp. But as I said, link to a rep where zeal/archon/temp break a decent, but not dedicated zerg contain and does well afterwards.
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Sweden33719 Posts
http://rapidshare.de/files/19975307/PGTourVIIColdPlay2.rep.html
Mm, not the greatest game ever but that's one of the few games which I remembered clearly off the top of my head that I used archon zealot templar vs a relatively dedicated lurker contain ;o
I actually like using dragoons tho, and if they make hydras too, I'll definitely make them (unless the contain is very weak/his eco is very weak and I want to pressure it as quickly as possible in which case I'll just be storming morphing non-stop).
I was just defending that style of play, as it is valid and in some cases preferable.
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i think the problem a lot of people have with this post is that you make these general strats sound like as long as you do this you shouldnt have a problem. the problem is that most toss players do this already to some extent and still have trouble with pvz.
you make some good points, but pvz is not a very easy/simple match-up and it seems like thats what you're trying to make it.
i think the problem with guides in general is that starcraft is like many physical sports where knowing what to do is never enough, you need to be able to execute and thats where most of the trouble comes from.
for most pvz players this guide isnt going to be an epiphany for their gameplay and maybe thats what a lot of these disgruntled posters were looking for >.>
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Hum, I agree with most in that the first post is laregly theorycraft and also with shallows last post. By theorycraft, I mean that my main concern is that when someone reads it, it’s not going to help them play better significantly. I'm very skeptical of any guide/comprehensive advice that does not start with (what I see as) the basis of good play, build efficiency and countering. Both of which your original post had very little of. What good is general advice if they don’t know the little things and how to apply them. For instance, what good is knowing to storm the clumps if someone does not even know basic build efficiency. And picking up things such as storm the clumps is quickly done. The problem with general advice is that its too vague. Ok storm the clumps thats great, now actually tell me how i can win more.
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Much ignorance of plague, there is. Making zealots/goons late pvz is a waste as you end up with 60 hp footman or 80 hp spider thing.
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@Raider: He didn't have anything more than Ultra+ling. Maybe 4 ultras and 30-40 lings. May sound like a lot but it's not more expensive than 20 zeals+3 archons or so. In fact it's more cost effective. That's what bothers me: not that zeals get beaten by lings in general, but that zeals get beaten by lings that costed way less.
And no, there's not much ignorance of plague, since most good players will use it when just army won't cope with the situation. However, most of the times the zerg swarm alone can take down what the toss throws at it because of superior power in late game. If the toss uses too many spells, that's where plague comes in to un-balance it again.
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On May 08 2006 15:22 FrozenArbiter wrote:http://rapidshare.de/files/19975307/PGTourVIIColdPlay2.rep.htmlMm, not the greatest game ever but that's one of the few games which I remembered clearly off the top of my head that I used archon zealot templar vs a relatively dedicated lurker contain ;o I actually like using dragoons tho, and if they make hydras too, I'll definitely make them (unless the contain is very weak/his eco is very weak and I want to pressure it as quickly as possible in which case I'll just be storming morphing non-stop). I was just defending that style of play, as it is valid and in some cases preferable.
hehe u were such at a disadvantage that game, little things made u behind, luckily stym is bad zvp ^^
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Sweden33719 Posts
Yup, I know, that game was really lol (archon got stuck, zealots did nothing, lost lots of observers ;().
But it was the only replay I could think of without having to look through 102313 of them
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 08 2006 17:51 Knickknack wrote:
Hum, I agree with most in that the first post is laregly theorycraft and also with shallows last post. By theorycraft, I mean that my main concern is that when someone reads it, it’s not going to help them play better significantly. I'm very skeptical of any guide/comprehensive advice that does not start with (what I see as) the basis of good play, build efficiency and countering. Both of which your original post had very little of. What good is general advice if they don’t know the little things and how to apply them. For instance, what good is knowing to storm the clumps if someone does not even know basic build efficiency. And picking up things such as storm the clumps is quickly done. The problem with general advice is that its too vague. Ok storm the clumps thats great, now actually tell me how i can win more.
Should every post have to include build orders O_o? I don't think that was what he meant by his title (ie I dont think he meant it as a complete PvZ guide, more like a mindset or something).
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No i dont think so. As you can see from my guide there is certainly a place for general strategy. Indeed, FA you probably post some of the best general pvz advice. I posted that to show my main concerns about his advice overall. I could have gone over everything point for point, but thats been covered ok already, plus i did not want to take the time.
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I tend to agree with Knickknack, but no totaly. I know that it's every player's dutty to stfw for build orders and placement and counters and expanding and timming. It's most like the thread intended to make a benefit for those ones who really want to learn something from everything they can. This thread was also usefull cuz a rep ws posted, new information was discussed and everyone learned a bit more. I also believe that is not a need for every player to stfw looking for what he needs to know, other than that is just lazyness. If you don't like the post, then arguee about the content of the thread =/.
Even if the one who started the thread didn't know about timming, placement, orders, tricks, etc.. it was his intention to make a contribution. You may provide for him the knoledge that he lacks, or the one you think that he lacks. That would be a lot more usefull.
/**Srry for the subject-change**/
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Okay, I'll put in my $0.02 too.
First of all, the lurker contain question, which seems to arouse much controversy. The actual problem is, there are quite a few different forms of lurker contain and grouping them all under one or two categories really doesn't do justice. I'll try to enumerate:
a) non-commited, delaying hydra/lurker
This is basically the situation when our opponent brings a group of hydras, 4-5 lurkers and tries to stop us for as long as he can while securing expansions. This is usually coupled with cliff drops on maps where it's possible and actually for some zergs, it will be an alternative to a contain. Here, massing goons is probably not the way to go because you can't really tell what the zerg is up to and you should attempt to kill the contain using a minimal tech switch. This probably means using zeal/temp for it, since then zeal/archons are quite useful when you break out. One thing worth nothing is that in most cases, the very existence of this type of contain is due to a protoss error - a very late robo. If you get your robo fast enough, this sort of contain will never work.
b) commited hydra/lurker
This is basically what FA was talking about as the 'special case'. When your opponent is committing to a hydra/lurker contain, he will generally want to starve you out instead of winning by outmacroing you (this is coupled with map control to make sure you don't take islands and other expansions). Now, since when doing this, your zerg opponent is delaying both his power and his tech very much, you don't have to care about the tech switch to goons - it's even required to break out. Actually, if the opponent does a very full commit (you see him making TONS of lurkers and/or a hatchery), I prefer to start a quick templar archives and fight using recalls because it takes less energy. Again, any sort of successful hydra/lurker contain is probably due to not getting robo fast enough, so the best counter is simply to scout well enough.
c) half-commited hydra/lurker
This is something the better zerg players tend to do, a sort of middle ground. The "half-commitment" basically means this - the zerg will scout us intensely and will only commit to the containment if there's a real risk you will break out. If he builds a macro advantage over you, he will stop committing to the contain, making you face a powered-out zerg when you break out. This is the tricky part because around here, goons won't work, apart from maybe a few. They require you to tech-switch and worst of all, killing lurkers with goons is a very systematic process. This means the zerg will know long in advance when to reinforce his containment. If you're going zeal/archon/templar, he probably won't expect it since with good micro, you will kill enough lurkers with storm/single zeal, then just burst out. The benefit is, templars are reusable while goons are not, and goons cost gas. This means, if he's semi-committing, you're facing a loss of a lot of gas just to break out of the contain, only to find yourself unable to properly fight his tier 3 troops when you do. Instead, when using templars you don't use up any gas (just the single zeals used to finish off lurks) and you still get archons later on which are good for fighting his hive tech.
d) non-commited lurker/ling to fast hive
This is quite popular out there on PGT nowadays (I tend to run into opponents playing this, maybe because it's so simple - I tried playing it out as zerg, no skill required ). The general idea is, this sort of lurker tech is very fast because you don't need hydras. So, even if a protoss scouts well, he might not have mobile detection fast enough. When fighting this, not only you shouldn't get goons, you're forbidden to. The reason is, goons cost gas and goons completely suck vs cracklings. The moment you SHOULD get goons is later on when he establishes his hive tech, as a support troop vs ultralisks. Here though, archon/zeal/temp should be quite enough to break out, the faster, the better.
e) non-commited lurker/ling/scourge to hydra switch
This is rare but dangerous. Basically, remember that a lurker/ling player will not spend all of his gas on the lurkers, unlike the hydra/lurker player. This means he still can afford getting upped hydras. Now, the main danger is that upped hydras with lurkers own zeal/arch in a normal fight and when facing a 'hardcore' lurker/ling contain, the protoss player will tend to morph most of his HTs to archons when breaking out. Then you have 2.5 groups of zeal/arch with 2 hts and you're flanked by 5 hydra groups, bye bye. The good counter is scouting - actually, the zerg that does this is dead if you mix enough templars with your troops and just keep securing bases instead of running headlong into his flank - hydras are very bad for breaking protoss positional play.
f) commited lurker/ling/scourge
Now, this is not as funny as it looks. Remember, a zerg who plays hydra/lurk needs to spend a lot of gas on the hydras. If he plays a commited lurker/ling, he can spend all the gas on the lurkers... this is not a laughable issue. Here, the lurkers start being dangerous not only because of their properties, but because of the sheer amounts. I once faced a contain of ~40 lurkers on Luna - it's virtually impossible to kill. The right way here is systematically killing the lurkers with templar/zeal (you might be tempted to use goons, but remember point d - these two are virtually indistinguishable) and possibly dropping the zerg if he doesn't have scourges. Breaking out with sair/dt/obs is also a good option here if he doesn't mix hydras in. Using recall is yet another option.
Now, on the starting post main issue, or "group your troops and force zerg to pack".
This sounds nice in theory, but is pretty hard to obtain in practice. The main reason is, you have to make it worthwile for the zerg to run into your grouped troops in a pack, instead of picking a place when he can run over you with a flank. Generally, having a zerg mass flank you nullifies all the benefits of "a large zerg group attacking at once" - he's having neither a small group nor packed units, just a good spread. Therefore, a smart zerg will _always_ flank - you need to give him a good reason to do otherwise.
The main 'good reason' is securing expansions. If you can chase away his overlords (possibly with sairs) and secure some expo, he'll have to run over to it quickly or face 10+ cannons later on (in this, protoss expansions are even better than zerg since zerg has to sacrifice drones for the sunkens and storm stops masses). So, you actually have to have _two_ factors: you have to make zerg attack with his troops in one place _and_ be it a place of your chosing, for you to get a clear victory.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 09 2006 07:52 Knickknack wrote:
No i dont think so. As you can see from my guide there is certainly a place for general strategy. Indeed, FA you probably post some of the best general pvz advice. I posted that to show my main concerns about his advice overall. I could have gone over everything point for point, but thats been covered ok already, plus i did not want to take the time.
=]
Fair enough!
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On May 08 2006 17:51 Knickknack wrote:
Hum, I agree with most in that the first post is laregly theorycraft and also with shallows last post. By theorycraft, I mean that my main concern is that when someone reads it, it’s not going to help them play better significantly. I\'m very skeptical of any guide/comprehensive advice that does not start with (what I see as) the basis of good play, build efficiency and countering. Both of which your original post had very little of. What good is general advice if they don’t know the little things and how to apply them. For instance, what good is knowing to storm the clumps if someone does not even know basic build efficiency. And picking up things such as storm the clumps is quickly done. The problem with general advice is that its too vague. Ok storm the clumps thats great, now actually tell me how i can win more.
I understand your point Knickknack, but it wasn\'t my intention to write a complete PvZ guide. Also I think many game-parts such as ressource gathering, worker switching, required number of workers, macro issues have already been discussed a fair amount of times. So I didn\'t want to write this again. Anyhow, for this part of the game, once you know it, you have to play an train yourself to improve those points.
However I believe that Starcraft is more than just execution. If you are not good at execution, you will never get to a decent level. But once you reach a certain level of execution, strategy plays a very important part. Actually there are two levels: the first is knowing what to do when your opponent goes for a tactic X. This can maybe seen also as execution. And then comes the second level: it\'s all about finding new global strategies (excellents but very rare nowadays since so many ideas have already been tried) and new situational strategies. By those I mean a strategy that you can never focus in advance, but given a specific situation, while playing, you take your decision, and if right, it will be a gamewinner.
That said, if you want this to work, you have to absolutely know your units, and be open to not just stick with your overall strategy (even if you will do these very often), but also analyse your opponent and looking for specific weaknesses that could be exploited.
I\'ll come back to the topic. My initial post tried to make some parts of the matchup PvZ clearer, so that it will be easier to rapidly understand what\'s happening and to find dedicated counters. Therefore giving you the possibility of fine-tuning your global strategy, but also the possibility of new strategies (even if I doubt there will many) or situational strategies.
Second, my initial post was intended to give you my point of view, but foremost to get other opinions (because everyone has a different style and made different experiences) to elebarote some global ideas. Thanks goes to everyone who wrote useful answers, especially FA, but also cubedin, raider and Ilintar.
Knickknack, perhaps you know everything in this matchup an my post was pointless to you. Then I am very happy for you and see forward to hearing at a greater scale of you later on. If maybe you don't know everything (and I think there are a lot of people like that on this forum, me included), then it is a good occasion to get more indepth sights, by discussing this matchup. And think of those who can learn from "obvious" statements, which aren't perhaps obvious for everyone.
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I agree that your aim is more about 'global strategy,' while I tend to analyze builds and situations to figure out how to get the most out of those builds and situations. I admit that I tend to dismiss 'global strategy' in favor of focusing in on more specific things. The main reasons I dismiss 'global strategy' is because it seems to me that the 'global strategies' are more or less set after 8years or so and that when talking about 'global strategies' one is more detached from the game(thus theorycraft) and thus the explanations are vague and general. At this point, I believe analysis and trying to squeeze the most out of certain 'global strategies' pays bigger, and its easier for others to grasp in a way that will improve their play.
The main thing I got from this thread was the idea to try to break a contain without goons. I'ld always built a group or two of goons, but for those 12 goons, one could have about 12zeals and 5ht instead. Seems fine to me, but goons are still certainly good vs. sunks, and for keeping obs alive, and also vs. hydra/lurk.
That being said, it seems you’re earnestly trying to work things out and help the community, so I applaud you for that. I look forward to what you have to bring later on.
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Hey FA, just upload the rep to BR.com. I'll find it there and even rate it
Just don't feel like installing all that junk for 1 rep
I actually am very interested in watching it so thanks in advance.
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Sweden33719 Posts
Install? You don't need to install anything, just click the download link, choose free, write in the numbers they show and wait 30-60 seconds for the timer to count down ;p
And battlereports.com no longer allows these kinds of uploads IIRC.
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Ah, didn't realize that.
As for the second part, you can upload replays to BR.com just as well as before, the only thing you cannot do is link them externally. But yeah i got that to work.
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Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
This is how I play it.
If I dont know my opponent and its a 2 player map like ROV I will proxy gate and rape it up with 2 zealots and a probe.
Any 4 corner map you should 2 gate, and put gates by your ramp, but not too far away from your main.
One exception for me is on RHIII when the zerg is on the bottom left, I go gate forge, 2 zealots and a probe, cannon rush the natural, bring down another probe and follow it up with 3 cannons in his base using the pylon as a wall for my first cannon.
Also maps like azalea you could try gate forge or forge gate.
Basically when you secure your choke, tech to stargate and get 1 corsair, kill ovies and scout, if you only see hydras after u get ure second corsair, throw down a robo, expo with cannons and reavers, and opt for sair reaver.
If u see his hyrdas with ure first sair, cancel ure second and then go citadel, speed, templar archives, storm. Get observers as soon as u have the gas somewhere after storm.
After that play it out like rainbow with temp speedlot archon, and just make sure you have more bases then the zerg, play it sortof like PvT, if you control the map, and the majority of the gas expos, the zerg is fucked.
Constant temp drops is good.
After u get another expansion get some reavers.
Always scout for muta tech, if a zerg gets out 9 mutas or so and u dont notice, and your army isnt protecting your base, or you dont have any anti air you are fucked!
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
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On May 10 2006 11:19 beavis.smurf wrote:
Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
lol beavis.smurf you in NO WAY have the credibility to correct BigBalls pvz guide.
also you will not kill any good protoss players with mass hydras vs fast expo. if it were that simple, you wouldn't see any forge first expos in the pro leagues.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2006 11:19 beavis.smurf wrote:
Read the PvZ guidelines in recomended threads, but forget everything but the counters.
The way it is set up, makes you play too defensively.
This is how I play it.
If I dont know my opponent and its a 2 player map like ROV I will proxy gate and rape it up with 2 zealots and a probe.
Any 4 corner map you should 2 gate, and put gates by your ramp, but not too far away from your main.
One exception for me is on RHIII when the zerg is on the bottom left, I go gate forge, 2 zealots and a probe, cannon rush the natural, bring down another probe and follow it up with 3 cannons in his base using the pylon as a wall for my first cannon.
Also maps like azalea you could try gate forge or forge gate.
Basically when you secure your choke, tech to stargate and get 1 corsair, kill ovies and scout, if you only see hydras after u get ure second corsair, throw down a robo, expo with cannons and reavers, and opt for sair reaver.
If u see his hyrdas with ure first sair, cancel ure second and then go citadel, speed, templar archives, storm. Get observers as soon as u have the gas somewhere after storm.
After that play it out like rainbow with temp speedlot archon, and just make sure you have more bases then the zerg, play it sortof like PvT, if you control the map, and the majority of the gas expos, the zerg is fucked.
Constant temp drops is good.
After u get another expansion get some reavers.
Always scout for muta tech, if a zerg gets out 9 mutas or so and u dont notice, and your army isnt protecting your base, or you dont have any anti air you are fucked!
Some players go forge first and do a fast expand. Personally I think that sucks because a zerg just gets mass hydras and its GG unless you get temp tech really fast.
..
What positive is there to say? Nice to see such a display of confidence (not really)?
No offense, but -_-;;
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I think it's only appropriate to see beavis post in BlackDevil's thread.
FA, I watched the rep, and that was some nice play by you, and I see what you mean. I just can't help but feel that the zerg should have had more units when you broke out. When you were done with his containment, you were pretty much down to 4 archons and a few zealots in the red, which is what I predicted would happen in earlier posts in this thread--that you break out but lose most of our army. The difference was that the zerg had nothing left once you got out. What is your opinion in that case? Did the zerg misplay it and should have been ready to make more troops sooner, or did it work out the way it was supposed to?
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BlackDevil. Stop avoiding everyone and post a friggin replay. your strats are great but im learning toss and i need to see some stuff in action. or if anyone else has some good reps vs this kind of zerg?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On May 10 2006 13:57 Raider wrote:
I think it's only appropriate to see beavis post in BlackDevil's thread.
FA, I watched the rep, and that was some nice play by you, and I see what you mean. I just can't help but feel that the zerg should have had more units when you broke out. When you were done with his containment, you were pretty much down to 4 archons and a few zealots in the red, which is what I predicted would happen in earlier posts in this thread--that you break out but lose most of our army. The difference was that the zerg had nothing left once you got out. What is your opinion in that case? Did the zerg misplay it and should have been ready to make more troops sooner, or did it work out the way it was supposed to?
Thx
Hm, down to 4 archons from what? 5? I don't think I lost a lot at least ;p Some zealots but I only used about half my army.. Even if I lost most of what I used to break the contain, I killed about an equal amount (in worth) of his.
Anyway, that's why I think it's good vs a not so dedicated contain because well, it just works better than getting goons You get more archons and more units in general + more gas left.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/d7/e4/f6_1_b.JPG)
