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! [Q] PvsZ - Understanding this matchup

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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BlackDevil
Profile Joined April 2006
France53 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-05-06 07:08:31
May 06 2006 04:32 GMT
#1
PvsZ - Understanding this matchup

How many games have you played against the Swarm and gg'ed, because you were just overrun by Zerg masses?

How can you turn the odds against him?

What are the main problems against any Zerg player?
-Scouting problems (and therefore not knowing what the Zerg is up to)
-Dangerous Drops
-Simple masses of Units
-Lack of Detectors (Observers dying to Scourge and therefore giving no more detection against lurkers)
-Ultralisks
-Being contained

And that's about it. So how adressing these problems altogether?

Zerg's units have to be in masses to be effective. How fast do single Zerglings die? Do you fear 6 Mutalisks if you have 2 Cannons?
And that's where the Protoss advantages kick in. Once Zerg Units are grouped, they become vulnerable. Just use your weapons of massdestruction. PSI-Storm (but also Reavers) wait for a concentrated attack and then 4 well placed PSI-Storms cripple any attack early-mid game.Late Game? Just build more high Templars and storm even more.

Basically there are 2 phases for this to work.

Phase 1: Making the Zerg Units stack
*) In your own Base against a frontal attack: the best is to defend at a choke. If possible, narrow it with big buildings
like WarpGates.Place Photoncannons behind. Make the entrance narrow, so that the Zerg Units have to concentrate more. Leave little space inside your base to manouver for the Zerg.

*) When you're out on the battlefield, try using big fat troops, that can stand much damage. These are Archons, but also Zealots can stand much damage (because they are small and therefore get less damage from Hydralisks while doing full damage).Therefore forcing the Zerg to bring along a big army to beat that Archon-Zealot Army. The same concept works lategame with carriers.If you choose to use them, the Zergplayer will have to counter with mass hydralisks (if he goes for Terrors, there is a modification, i'll explain later)
Side note to Zerg armies flanking you: this isn't the problem, as long as the fat Archons gather groups of Zerglings around them, that can easily be PSI-Stormed. And Hydralisks are always quite easy to storm.

Phase 2: Mass Destroyers
Vs Zerglings either PSI-Storm or Reavers are good. Vs Hydralisks PSI-Storm is defenitely better.Thenn, you should have any kind of army (even small) to kill of the rest. Like I said just before, use Archons-Zealots.On open field, you can use Shuttle to transport your Reavers and/or high Templars.

Conclusion: So when fighting any Zerg Player, you'll need to be able to face large armies of Units. Because the Zerg's Minerals alwasy go to either Zerglings or Hydralisks or both, these 2 are the units that can be massed (this is less true for gas-expensive units). So dealing with them is a priority. And both phases are very important. If you don't make the Zerg unit's stack, he will attack at many different spots, and therefore your Mass Destroyers won't be effective. If you don't use mass destroyers, he will win any fight, because of superior numbers.

So this adresses the Problem of Zerg Mass Units.

If the Zerg decides to attack your bases instead of your army (happens quite often), directly or dropping, you should be able to hold off those attacks without your army. When you get a massive attack, this will be perhaps impossible, but the attack should cost the Zerg so much, that it will cripple him severly. If you want to do that, you have got to have a good amount of photon cannons and quite a bunch of high Templars. If you've got 6-8 Cannons +4-5 high Templars defending a base, it will cost the Zerg Player very much, if he decides to attack such a base. And what you defenitely should do is counterattack. Send just the necessary amount of units to finish off the rest of the attack (maybe a few archons and some zealots) while you should attack with your main force. If the Zerg has wasted his units on that attack, your Archon-Zealot Army will rape at least a base of him, while hopefully with the initial cannons and storms, backed up by a few units, you can hold his attack.

Lack of detection, lack of scouts, dangerous drops.
These are 3 other problems and maybe 3 reasons you want to build Corsairs. Air superiority is quite important for you.
Corsairs in adequate groups (8+) adress any Scourge and Mutalisks. Therefore giving Obeservers a longer lifespan. And also Corsairs are Scouts themselves. If you see it coming, they can effectively intercept any drop.
But these are not the only reasons why Corsairs are that important. They can engage Overlords quite well, and therefore turn the game around, leaving the Zerg without detection. Sometimes this gives an opportunity to use dark Templars very effectively. (Anyone remember Nal-Ra countering Mondragon on Blizzard WWI?)
Or late game, if you got the money to go for disruptor net, this will give you an additional bonus against a Zerg ground
army, by cutting their power into small bits.

Being contained and lurker.
If the Zerg uses just Zerglins, Hydras to contain you, feel free (if you have the units) to engage him as it would be on any open ground: Archon-Zealots backed by PSi-Storm and/or Reavers.If the Zerg players decides to attack your base, your detetors are photoncannons, and lurkers aren't that effective against cannons. Because then again they would have to attack in numbers, therfore rendering themselves vulnerable to PSI-Storm. If you want to break the containment, there will be 2 possibilites.If the Lurkers are few (<4), then just kill them directly with Archons and Zealots. Maybe soften them up with a PSI-Storm. But as soon as Lurkers become deadly to Zealots (this is when there are many lurkers), you can use PSI-Storm at will. Got an observer Killing PRoblem? Research either speed or sight range upgrade for observers.(if you don't have corsairs). If you have Corsairs, adress the problem itself by protecting Obervers against scourge.

Breaking out gets so quite easy. First have adequate detection.And then break out. If there are many Zerg Units, PSI-Storm, otherwise you should win any direct battle.

Ultralisks
They are about the same as Archons.They can take quite some hits, but so they do much less damage than Zerglings. So you
still take care of Zerglings as before. And once all his supporting army is dead (Zerglins and Hydralisks), you can quite easily overcome those fat beasts.

Dark Swarm
Just makes your ranged units unable to deal any damage. But as your main damage is dealt by PSI-Storm, Reavers, this shouln'd be a real issue.Also note that both, Zealots and Archons work under Dark Swarm.

Last but not least: Dark Archons.
They are quite expensive (if you already have all the above units). But once you can get them, it's nearly GG. Feedback any Queens (if some are used) and defilers. Maelstorm any bunch of Ultralisks or Air Units. And why not mindcontrol Queens, defilers, ultralisks, lurker??? But I would say that maelstorm (in combination with PSI-Storm) can be quite a game-winner.

Some last thoughts
Dragoons: I thinks a few can be ok. But why would you want them? The Gas is better used in templars.Because you will build them to attack lurkers, and here PSI-Storm is better. After a Lurker has been stormed once, it is good to have some Goons, to kill it, but for that purpose alone, you should not get too many. Their Gas should go as said in h.Temps or corsairs, their Minerals in zealots, Cannons or Corsairs. Maybe a reaver.
Dark Templar: they are good when used as surprise, when you got aircontrol with Corsairs.

How getting to all that? This is maybe the most difficult part.And i think there are many answers. From opening with a FE, to harressing with a 2Gate proxy-build, there are many possibilities. But as an easy rule, you should get a good economy running and perhaps start with getting a combination of 1-2 Corsairs and high Templar (which can be morphed into an Archon, if you suspect an Mutalisk attack).And if needed add Corsairs, otherwise go out, with that army when you are sure that you can keep your expansions (like I said before with PSI-Storm and Cannons). When being contained, try to do something useful: expand with a Shuttle (perhaps an Island, perhaps an unscouted base). Once the Cannons are up, and a few Templars are there, it will be pretty ugly for the Zerg to get it back. Or while being contained, make some high Templar drops do PSI-Storm his drones. Zerg players don't really appreciate that.

Ok. As anything, this isn't perfect and so I would really like to hear comments on it. If you have something constructive to say, well everybody would love to hear it. But if it is just flame, then you are just letting everyone loose his time.


BlackDevil

Edit:
As I see quite some sceptical minds here, maybe instead of pointing out that this post is not perfect,which helps nobody (anyhow, who can pretend to be perfect at Starcraft?), what about putting in some ideas of yours, like what you would do differently in certain situations, what units you will handle in a different way, and how?

Like that this thread is a starting point for a good discussion which will be useful for everyone.
The difference between a fool and a genius is measured in succes.
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
May 06 2006 04:41 GMT
#2
Posts 14

Night[Mare
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Mexico4793 Posts
May 06 2006 04:58 GMT
#3
On May 06 2006 13:41 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Posts 14


very true
Teamliquidian townie
tKd_
Profile Joined February 2005
United States2916 Posts
May 06 2006 05:02 GMT
#4
As a zerg player you've basically told me to use queens and parasite heh and ensnare to see where an army might be, scouting, more speed than corsairs, etc. But this was excellent dossier-type reading.
Slayer91
Profile Joined February 2006
Ireland23335 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-05-06 05:06:19
May 06 2006 05:04 GMT
#5
Well done on making a well written and long post but:

-Most of your counter is just PSI storm/ or archons, if you couldn't make unlimited amounts of both pvz would be easy.

If I contain you with hydra/lurker (I won't make many lings unless i see goons) then you say to break out with PSI storm and archon/zealot, you're only going to have your natural and to make enough of them to break a contain will be difficult considering.

A: I'm going to pick off any hts in the front who try to storm my lurkers with 12 hydra (Most people storm the hydra with usually kills 2-3 and damages the rest) and hydra can also pick off observers.
(Note when I do all this I scout all free expands so you can't take a main without fighting for it)I don't believe I have seen anyone without goons break my lurker contain if I set it up well.

B: I think you vastly underestimate hydras ability to dodge storm, yeah my macro suffers but charging in a choke with 40 hydra i need to micro them hardcore and I pick off your hts too.

C: I think hydra/ensnare maybe w/ a few lurkers might be an increbibly strong counter to archon/lot, just ensnare + mass hit and run, lurks will do alot of damage too.
BlackDevil
Profile Joined April 2006
France53 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-05-06 05:46:45
May 06 2006 05:46 GMT
#6
Thanks for those useful comments.

@tKd_
I agree. Queens are useful. With some micro, perhaps you can kill them with your Corsairs.Otherwise just ignore them. If the Zerg Player invests a great amount of ressources into queens, then you could maybe consider building a Dark Archon. Feedback is a great spell and doesn't need to be researched.

@Slayer91
It is true that you don't have enough gas at the beginning to build both Archons and hight Templars en masse. I would suggest to use mainly Zealots (at that stage of the game) as a meatshield, maybe backed up by 1 archon. So you can get plenty of gas for your h.Temps. When you get a decent amount of high Temps, start spending your money on Archons if he goes for Zerglings (and later Ultralisks). Stick with h.Temps if he builds more Hydralisks.

A- As PSI-Storm has a higher range than Hydras or Lurkers, a Protoss Player should be able to use it without loosing his h.Templar. As for the Observers, get either sight range, either speed upgrade.

B- This is the reason why the choke has to be as small as possible. And also the reason why a Protoss player should build enough h.Temps. 4 sometimes just aren't enough.

C- If you got enough PSI-Storms and Zealot Speed Upgrade, you sould own. It's the storm that takes care of the hydralisks, while the Zealots clear up. The same goes against lurkers. While 2-3 aren't really a problem, more will be eliminated by PSI-Storm.
The difference between a fool and a genius is measured in succes.
Aphelion
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States2720 Posts
May 06 2006 06:04 GMT
#7
BlackDevil, do you have reps of you PvZing?
But Garimto was always more than just a Protoss...
Raider
Profile Joined April 2006
61 Posts
May 06 2006 06:14 GMT
#8
Basically, what people seem to be saying is that they think you are a newb and your strat post sucks.
tKd_
Profile Joined February 2005
United States2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-05-06 08:24:57
May 06 2006 06:17 GMT
#9
On May 06 2006 15:14 Raider wrote:
Basically, what people seem to be saying is that they think you are a newb and your strat post sucks.


I nuked myself.
FakeSteve[TPR]
Profile Blog Joined July 2003
Valhalla18444 Posts
May 06 2006 06:25 GMT
#10
its 1999
Moderatormy tatsu loops r fuckin nice
BlackDevil
Profile Joined April 2006
France53 Posts
May 06 2006 06:28 GMT
#11
Instead of posting a rep of mine, may I suggest some much better players doing this?

Uzoo MSL (21/7/2005) - Reach Vs Chojja @Rush Hour
Archons + PSI-Storm going into an Carrier + Archon + PSI-Storm and even Maelstorm

Sky Proleague (21/1/2006) - Gorush Vs Stork @Neorequiem
Cannons backed by Reavers and PSI-Storm going into Carriers (meatshield) backed by PSI-Storm +Corsair Air-Control

And most recently:
ShinHan OSL2 (Week 2.2) - July Vs Rock
Small Chokes, many Cannons, some Archons and Mass PSI-Storm

The difference between a fool and a genius is measured in succes.
dream-_-
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1857 Posts
May 06 2006 06:41 GMT
#12
Hmm good effort, but very missleading at times. Im realy not trying to be mean, but I think you have a little way to go before writing guides
BlackDevil
Profile Joined April 2006
France53 Posts
May 06 2006 07:02 GMT
#13
Hmm, I see some sceptical minds here.

Hey, maybe instead of pointing out that this post is not perfect,which helps nobody (anyhow, who can pretend to be perfect at Starcraft?), what about putting in some ideas of yours, like what you would do differently in certain situations, what units you will handle in a different way, and how?

Like that this thread is a starting point for a good discussion which will be useful for everyone.
The difference between a fool and a genius is measured in succes.
Night[Mare
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
Mexico4793 Posts
May 06 2006 07:20 GMT
#14
blackdevil i think you theorycraft too much, and ill tell you why:
1.- making zerg's units stack: smart zerg wont run all his army into a choke with high templars around. (maybe if there are some mutas picking off ht's, then yes)
2.-mass destroyers: they're very very expensive, templars are very gas heave, and reavers are gas+mineral heavy, plus they're hard to micro. maybe leave this for experienced players who can decent micro
3.- dangerous drops: you either make sairs, or ht. you cant have many of both so: you have corsairs = zerg goes more hydra, you have more ht= zerg drops scourge ling lurk, and your detection is bye bye.
4.- ultras: well, 4 gas zerg with ultras is very tough to fight, you need to mass archons, because even if lings do a lot of damage, ultras too, they eat zealot, and zerg can just eat zealots and run, and mass enough ultras to just overrun you. (lings are produced way faster than zealot)
5.-dark swarm: only units that can fight here: zealots/dts/reavers. Archons only do like 5 splash damage under swarm, agreed with Dark archons
6.- goons: goons are a pain in the ass when they have enough space to run, they kill ultras =(

****HOWEVER****
what you post is good, but think also as zerg, you're pointing out counters to stupid zergs who would just select + a + left click. Of course zerg WILL make some mistake, thats where you take advantage
Teamliquidian townie
Hypnotize
Profile Joined March 2006
United States183 Posts
May 06 2006 08:00 GMT
#15
i cant tell if he wants advice or is telling us things we basically already know.
also im pretty sure toss players dont leave 4-5 HTs in their base JUST IN CASE the zerg attacks. if they can afford that they wouldve won a long time ago. they just use a moblie army to defend against a base attack then go on to fuck the zerg if they kill the zerg's army.

i would say maybe 1-2 Hts in a base. most likely one for defense against a drop?
Carriers are gay
Patriot.dlk
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Sweden5462 Posts
May 06 2006 08:10 GMT
#16
On May 06 2006 17:00 Hypnotize wrote:
i cant tell if he wants advice or is telling us things we basically already know.
also im pretty sure toss players dont leave 4-5 HTs in their base JUST IN CASE the zerg attacks. if they can afford that they wouldve won a long time ago. they just use a moblie army to defend against a base attack then go on to fuck the zerg if they kill the zerg's army.

i would say maybe 1-2 Hts in a base. most likely one for defense against a drop?


For all I know it depends on the zerg-,- If he constantly does nothing but stab then why wouldn't you leave that many?

If you are 200/200 it's no big deal.. My point is you must realize it's to theorycraft to say "leave x static defence"
WhatisProtoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
Korea (South)2325 Posts
May 06 2006 09:26 GMT
#17
On May 06 2006 13:58 Night[Mare] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 06 2006 13:41 Patriot.dlk wrote:
Posts 14


very true


Um, what does this matter?
WhatisProtoss
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
Korea (South)2325 Posts
Last Edited: 2006-05-06 09:31:58
May 06 2006 09:28 GMT
#18
On May 06 2006 15:41 dream-_- wrote:
Hmm good effort, but very missleading at times. Im realy not trying to be mean, but I think you have a little way to go before writing guides


He says it's not perfect, and open for discussion. If you have anything better to say, then say it, hm?

I think he gave a nice little layout against basic zerg players.

On May 06 2006 15:28 BlackDevil wrote:
Instead of posting a rep of mine, may I suggest some much better players doing this?

Uzoo MSL (21/7/2005) - Reach Vs Chojja @Rush Hour
Archons + PSI-Storm going into an Carrier + Archon + PSI-Storm and even Maelstorm

Sky Proleague (21/1/2006) - Gorush Vs Stork @Neorequiem
Cannons backed by Reavers and PSI-Storm going into Carriers (meatshield) backed by PSI-Storm +Corsair Air-Control

And most recently:
ShinHan OSL2 (Week 2.2) - July Vs Rock
Small Chokes, many Cannons, some Archons and Mass PSI-Storm


And the game between Stork and Gorush isn't really viable for non-pro players, especially people who aren't Nal_rA or Stork. They are probably the 2 guys who can actually pull that shit off against a macro zerg like Gorush. Even Reach can't corsair/reaver well.
HappyManRun
Profile Joined November 2005
1111 Posts
May 06 2006 10:55 GMT
#19
haha reach's sair will get pwnt by burrow anytime :D
I happy, thus I run.
Dexxus
Profile Blog Joined May 2006
United States329 Posts
May 06 2006 12:28 GMT
#20
Nice post BlackDevil, but most of this is basic stuff that every toss should be aware of... And every zerg too
I need a signature so I'm using this one.
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