EPT! [Q] PvsZ - Understanding this matchup - Page 3
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
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ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
Other ones include: Goliath ground to air missiles = 2x10 (+2) Possibly scout air to air missiles 2x14 (+1) I think thats all And yes, zeals suck late game because their upgrades are completely cancelled by the ling ones, while ultra armour is -12 dmg. | ||
RaGe
Belgium9949 Posts
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
On May 07 2006 06:42 BlackDevil wrote: Excellent post FA, you made many situations extremly clear. A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment. Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons. Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy. For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations. I don't know if its possible to break out of a commited contain by hyrda lurk by a good zerg w/ just zeal archon templar. And I really don't understand how you manage to protect ur obs from hydra scourge with just archon and small amounts of goon. Again, a rep would be greatly appreciated and clear up a lot of questions. Btw, thanks for your substantial and well structured posts! | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
On May 07 2006 11:04 RaGe wrote: theorycraaaaaaaft May be, but now that I found this out, I'll stop making so many zeals and use the extra minerals for fields of cannons. No use getting zealots if they deal 8 damage to ultras, and need 3 hits to kill lings. Also, a small correction to Frozen Arbiter's post: the archon doesn't deal just splash under swarm unless there's only one-two units around it. If it fires at units at his maximum range, the units in between the attacker and the reciever will get the full punch of the attack. Might sound complicated but all you have to do is attack the 2nd/3rd row of lings, and the first row will get killed. Just like you do to kill burrowed lurks with tanks under swarm ^_^. | ||
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Raider
61 Posts
Zeal/archon/temp will get raped by lurk contain, and not because there is no way to protect the obs, but because all it will take is about a dozen hydras or 2 dozen lings holding off the protoss force. 2 shots from 6+ lurks, and all the zealots go POOF. Second to FA regarding DAs, I think they are great to use against ultra/crax. You can freeze a clump of zerg troops in the middle, making the rest go around in thin line, making them easier to kill, while you storm the frozen clump 2-3 times, making sure they die as soon as maelstrom done. You don't really need more than 1, maybe 2 DAs for this, which is not that great of an investment later in the games. Plus DAs barely ever die since they are fast and have 200 shields, so the few you make will probably last you the rest of the game, win or lose. Lastly, DAs are useful in feedbacking defilers (in fact if you are good at multitasking, you can keep an eye on zerg forces using obs and use speed shuttles to ferry in DAs and feedback defilers/storm drones/whatever, though only do this if there isnt much scourge around and you are sure that this won't hurt your macro/paying attention to other details). In general, I believe that the more tech toss uses late game vs Z, the stronger he will be. zeal/Archon is "ok", Zeal/Archon/DA or Zeal/Archon/reaver is good, zeal/archon/DA/reaver/temp simply owns if u can control all that, which isn't all that hard actually. That's my experience, but of course you can also say this is theorycraft. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
/post rep pls! | ||
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BlackDevil
France53 Posts
If you have the courtesy of having a 12 Hydra group placed in order to intercept h.Temps, I think I could spare 1-2 storms to salute them.  To give you a general idea, I just storm the first group of units within storm range, and then proceed. If there are just spare units (like 2-3 Hydras), I engage them with my few Goons. (I have a small number: 2-3 most of the time to finish of Lurkers that have been stormed once.) To get enough Gas to get all theses storms, I follow 2 rules: 1) I only build 2-3 Goons midgame 2) I only build 1-2 Archons midgame. More if the Zerg Players builds tons of Zerglings or if I start having a good group of h.Temps. (sth like 7+) Then lategame against ultralisks, they become necessary. But I tend to try net getting overgreedy and prefer having some Temps at my expansions to keep them alive. 3) And only when I got about all the Temps and Archons I want, I start going for some further support of my Zealon / Archon / h.Temps army. Dark Archons Vs ZergAirUnits of Ultralisks. Reavers Vs well defended Zerg Bases. I'll explain a little more the concept about reavers: My Archon /Zealot /h.temp Army basically keeps me alive on the battefield. But it is quite difficult to attack a well protected Zerg Base because SporeColonies can keep Observers out, thus making Lurkers quite strong. In that case I appreciate the Reaver's ranged attack. And not only do they help me break his defense, they help me furthermore against his army. Anyhow: don't forget the shuttle. If he tries to storm the reaver: Archons defend against lings and mutas. And Mass-Psi Storm, mixed to a few Scarabs kills many Hydras.If you think he will be able to destroy your reaver, just load it into your shuttle (beware of Scourge although) and micro. | ||
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Aphelion
United States2720 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
When I played vs Eliza, we were fighting over the 9 o clock expansion on luna, and since he had to run across the bridge to attack me, he'd lose a lot of units if he tried to attack, so he loaded a bunch of overlords with units and attacked + dropped the expo simultaneously (you can find the replay in the TL.net rep section, I think it's listed as Dream.t)PltO vs Proteur (reason I'm not keeping the aka secret anymore is because it's already been posted  ).I don't think dropping just lings would be worth it tho, as they'd just come out and die one by one most likely :> As for reavers, they are awesome (especially on rush hour, where I usually make a second robo at my 2nd expo just because reaver+battery supported by cannons and good gateway placement + ht = best defence ever! + You'll be expanding @ the gas/mineral expansions closest to the empty main and from those expansions it's such a short walk for your reavers to the main. If you try to snipe hts with 12 hydras, they'll probably get stormed, but if you use less (say 4-6~) then it will be quite cost effecient. | ||
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Raider
61 Posts
Bottom line is, zeal/archon/temp is not a viable way to break zerg contain. That's the reason why you see any decent toss player start goon range research and pump 6-12 goons as soon as they sense that the lurk containment is even a possibility. Anyone suggesting figting lurk contain with zeals/temps/archons is either very misguided of has not played zergs outside of pub games on b.net. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Raider, psi storm is not as bad vs lurkers as you think.. Fighting a lurker/ling contain with zealot/templar/archon is PREFERABLE to fighting it with goons. Fighting a hydra/lurker containment with only zealot/archon/templar is HARD but you don't understand how it's done - you storm 2 lurkers, morph the hts as they run out of mana, send 2 zealots to kill the lurkers, repeat. No, it's OBVIOUSLY not the preferred method but it IS possible (ie draco does it a lot, or at least used to). If the zerg has 8 lurkers close together, psi storm will rape, if they are spread out some good storming + microing your zealots effeciently will make it possible to win. Again, it's preferable to have some (or a lot of) dragoons when fighting a zerg who's using hydra/lurker (and by so doing, staying at lair for a while longer than a zergling lurker user would). I think getting dragoons is better if the zerg is really gung ho about containing you, but if the contain isn't committed, getting dragoons is a waste of gas sometimes. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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Raider
61 Posts
Sure you are right, if the zerg just brings a couple of lurks a sits them there without much support just to hold you back until you get obs, they you can kill them with just about anything you have. We are talking about actualy lurker containment here, where there are 8+ well-placed lurks (seriously, when was the last time u saw a decent zerg bunch up his containing lurks?) are supported by some troops-either a bunch of lings or some hydras. Yes, I know about storm/sacrifice a zeal to kill the weakened lurker, but while you spend 1 storm and 1 zeal per lurk, zerg will take another 2 bases and defend them, which is what lurk containment is all about. Ranged goons allow you to aggressively break out of the containment sooner and have you be in the position to stop any expansion attempts before they are fortified. If you want to be careful, you can storm a couple of lurks and finish them off with a goon shot each (without losing the goon I might add). I would not do that to more than 1-3 lurks though because I would much rather use that storm on the mass of non-lurker troops that attack your troops to keep you away from said lurks. In fact, you can aim storms to hit the zerg troops as they pass over the lurks to get two for one so to say. But that's beside the point. The point is figting any significant number of lurkers with zeal/archon/temp is not the way to beat a zerg who has even a general idea of what he is doing. Finally, goons aren't as bad to have with your army as you make it out to be, so I hardly think they are a "waste of gas." Until zerg gets dark swarm, they kick quite a bit of ass. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
Bascily, all you can do in late game is get a field of cannons and as many gas expos as you can. Otherwise zeals will get totally raped. DT works well vs ultra/ling but DTs cost gas. Archons cost a lot of gas too. Templars needed to storm lings cost gas. Reavers cost gas, and even goons cost some gas. So what am i to do with all the excess mineral? Get zeals that deal a massive 8 damage to ultras? with FULL upgrades? Zeal vs ling in late game is hilarious. Especially if you don't have lvl 3 armor: 12 lings kill 5-6 zeals easily (without micro on the toss site, just surround-attack). And 12 lings = 300 mins while 6 zeals = 600 mins. I've seen some replays where the toss player actually kills about 80-90 lings with 5-6 consecutive storms while they were pouring in. The rest of the forces were battling ultras, and toss won with minimal damage. Then he tired to attack and was still over-run (it was some koreean guy vs sen). So please, someone give me some ideas about what to do with all the minerals.. cuz zeals are not cool anymore  Edit: just to make sure you understand me: I'm not trying to remove them from my army completely, but usually, as I get a lot of probes (probably more than I have to) I end up with tons of minerals after a while, so my army consists of 75% zeals and other forces. So what I want to do is that that procentage to about 35-40. What would be the right solution? Less army/more canns? More goons? DT+Zeal? Anything?  | ||
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Raider
61 Posts
Zealots are great at any point in the game because they are the only unit that stands between the enemy and your precious archons/reavers/goons/temps/whatever. Archons are great when they attack from among zealots, or from behind zealots, where they cannot be surrounded. Reavers also do great when they fire into the melee safely from behind the front lines. Get my drift here? Zealots should comprise the bulk of your army because they will support your other units. In addition to that, their damage is not as bad as you make it out to be. Also, you have to use them properly. Yes, pure zeals will not be cost-effective against crax, but that's the point of using good units combinations. You should never find yourself in a situation where you have 6 zeals against 12 crax that surround you. With archon splash, zeals still kill equally-upgraded crax in 1-2 hits, which is nice. In summary, the answer to your question is that if you find yourself losing late PvZ, you probably don't have enough zealots | ||
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BlackDevil
France53 Posts
On May 07 2006 21:48 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote: I'm still frustrated about the zeal's split damage. Bascily, all you can do in late game is get a field of cannons and as many gas expos as you can. Otherwise zeals will get totally raped. DT works well vs ultra/ling but DTs cost gas. Archons cost a lot of gas too. Templars needed to storm lings cost gas. Reavers cost gas, and even goons cost some gas. So what am i to do with all the excess mineral? I just wanted to stress out sth: while Reavers cost gas, they are much more mineral intensive. A Reaver coste 200M100G, add 5 Scarabs and it will be 275M100G. And I don't even speak about adding a shuttle costing 200M. The ratio 275M100G is cheaper in gas than a Goon, a little bit more expensive than a Hydralisk. Or in other terms: 2 Goons = 1 Reaver, 2h.Temps = 3 Reaver (in gas costs). So if you really have an excess in minerals, I suggest adding some Reavers.100Gas for one of those Killermachines isn't that much. And 4 Reaver (400Gas) will be much more of a trouble than 8 Goons. This is quite awesome against a Ling-Lurker Attack, provided you can keep the Reavers alive. Block the army with Zealots (you said you have enough minerals) +Archons, and let the reavers kick in. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 18:33 jkillashark wrote: Do what PJ does, play Terran when against a Zerg. He doens't anymore! On May 07 2006 19:21 Raider wrote: to FA. Sure you are right, if the zerg just brings a couple of lurks a sits them there without much support just to hold you back until you get obs, they you can kill them with just about anything you have. We are talking about actualy lurker containment here, where there are 8+ well-placed lurks (seriously, when was the last time u saw a decent zerg bunch up his containing lurks?) are supported by some troops-either a bunch of lings or some hydras. Yes, I know about storm/sacrifice a zeal to kill the weakened lurker, but while you spend 1 storm and 1 zeal per lurk, zerg will take another 2 bases and defend them, which is what lurk containment is all about. Ranged goons allow you to aggressively break out of the containment sooner and have you be in the position to stop any expansion attempts before they are fortified. If you want to be careful, you can storm a couple of lurks and finish them off with a goon shot each (without losing the goon I might add). I would not do that to more than 1-3 lurks though because I would much rather use that storm on the mass of non-lurker troops that attack your troops to keep you away from said lurks. In fact, you can aim storms to hit the zerg troops as they pass over the lurks to get two for one so to say. But that's beside the point. The point is figting any significant number of lurkers with zeal/archon/temp is not the way to beat a zerg who has even a general idea of what he is doing. Finally, goons aren't as bad to have with your army as you make it out to be, so I hardly think they are a "waste of gas." Until zerg gets dark swarm, they kick quite a bit of ass. No, there's no need to get goons except vs dedicated hydra lurker containments which is what I've been saying all along, and if you are really crazy you CAN break those too, using just zealot/templar/archon. You spend your gas on dragoons and you'll find yourself lacking archons/gas in your army when his hive is up (which will be up very quickly when using lurker ling and not hydra lurker). | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
1) Rider: I played many matches, and I do know what zeals are about, however it recently happened that I was low on gas, and used armies like 20 zeals+2 archons+2 ht. And they get raped by ultra-ling. I wasn't producing gas fast enough to drastictly change my army layout, and the minor changes were not helping (3/6 dts weren't of much use if you forget about ht). I know I went wrong somewhere otherwise I should have gotten more gas, but still, zealos were utterly useless. When you have an army consisting of 50% zeals and 50% HT/DT/DA/Archon then yeah, go zeals, be meatshields, but when the other units are really low, you're in deep jelly with them. Which brings us to: 2) Blackdevil: Yes, reavers would the best option, if it weren't for... Take a map like luna for instance, you have 4-5 expos, 3 with gas and 1-2 min only. Now an ultra+ling force can strike whereever you're low on defence, and reavers are REALLY hard to move around. If you get them to hold one area, you're getting attacked somewhere else. You can't really use them to defend two bases at once because of drop, and you can't get 10 of them to defend everything at once. That's my main problem with reavs. Personally I'm getting more cannons and using templars in defence to kill the lings. Then just attack when I have enough gas-heavy units in my army to actually cause some damage. However a smart zerg will not use his forces on your cannons and will probably win the game anyway by over-resourcing you. | ||
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