EPT! [Q] PvsZ - Understanding this matchup - Page 2
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
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SaNteria
Canada487 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i12.ebayimg.com/01/i/02/d7/e4/f6_1_b.JPG) TRADE SECRET | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
It means the OP is a newb. I've seen more insightful posts on the Battle.net forum. | ||
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CubEdIn
Romania5359 Posts
1. Use gas wisely. Yes, gas. Use it wisely. Waste your gas on the wrong type of unit and you lose. Everyone can mass zeal+goon but it's the gas-heavy units that make a difference. So choose wisely. 2. Expand. Some players go for 1 expo after each battle won. I think that's a bit over-doing it, but the main idea is taht you should not get too far back in expos, because as the zerg reaches tier 3, you're in deep ...jelly. Not only are upgraded Ultra+Ling cheap and efficient, but plague also joins the fun. Which if used properly cripples your army and overthrows the ballance dramaticly. 3. UPGRADE. I cannot stress this enough. 1st upgrade the attack, then armor and shield. Attack is vital especially vs lings. lvl 3 attack pwnz lings because zeals kills them in 2 and archons in 1 hit no matter what upgrades they have. And cracklings do HEAVY damage in late game. Armor (and eventually shield) are also of big importance since most zerg units have very little damage. (fully upg ling - 8 - cutting this down by 3 makes it about 38% less efficient) you WILL suffer the consequences of not up-grading armor in late game. Zeals will become yet even more worthless and lings can take them out with no other support. 4. Protect your expos. In late game this is a must, since lings are cheap and deadly. 2 ultras for initial damage absorbtion and a bunch of lings make ashes of your cannons. Make sure you have storm/reav (reav is expensive though) and make sure you target the zerglings. 5. Try to take down expos early. Nobody likes to fight sunks. Try to scout often, try to harass. And whatever you do don't let Z dictate the pace of the game. If he can do whatever he feels like, there's very little you can do to stop him. Even if you've secured say... 3-4 bases and he has taken 6-7 you're toast. Late game zerg is too powerful if he's let loose. Uffff... please be more specific.  | ||
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Night[Mare
Mexico4793 Posts
On May 06 2006 22:01 SaNteria wrote: Too bad all the uber-gosu strats are already covered in this little beauty: TRADE SECRET sry but thats the worst sc guide in the world firebats vs protoss rofl, best counter to mutas: scout ROFL MORE | ||
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
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Darki[Per]
Peru689 Posts
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essare
Korea (South)251 Posts
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sdpgposd
United Kingdom1464 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
Well.. First of all I want to correct a factual error - archons are affected by dark swarm, they deal only splash damage (meaning their total damage to fully upgraded ultralisks under a swarm goes down to 5). Second, you should only play archon/zealot/templar if you are facing a zerg who plays ling/lurker or if you are going to try and break the zerg's contain quickly/he's trying to lurker contain after having failed to end the game with a fast hydra rush. The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so having a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers. What makes archon/zealot work vs lurker ling is that he really has nothing that can actually stop your templars from storming to weaken the lurkers, or anything that can really kill the archons. Also, dragoons - once they get a couple of upgrades - work very, very well vs hydra/lurker (supported by storm), they are basically far more cost effecient than zealot/archon in this case. Now, if the zerg player is doing a non-committed contain using/hydra lurker, then a relatively low amount of goons might be advised - however, keep in mind that if he isn't committing to his contain, he's most likely sunken/spore/lurkering an expansion - and if you want to ever break one of those by means of ground assault you will need dragoons. So, the more committed he is to his contain, the more dragoons you want to use, because if he committs to containing he wont be able to produce tons of hive units (unless he succeeds in containing you and takes the map) and you will have a window of opportunity where you can run over anything he has with your superiorly upgraded (most likely, since he's had to spend so much gas on the contain), superiorly composed and bigger army (preferably just before his economy from his bases kick in/before he gets ultralisk armor upgrade, they are really weak before that). Now, if he isn't committing, then obviously, as I said, he's going for a quick hive or sunkening up somewhere (needs to be scouted, which, if he isn't committed, shouldn't be too hard), in this case you will need the gas for archons / maybe sairs+dark templars (more on them later). And in this case storming your way ahead is definitely going to be plausible as generally when a zerg is going for a quick hive he won't be making hydras (slows him down and leaves him with little gas). Corsair DT This is a very good counter to those pesky zergs who quickly jump up to hive with a minimal amount of expansions (perhaps 2 island and a mineral only on LT, or perhaps only 1 island and a mineral only) because they will have invested everything they have in upgrades + ultra/ling + sunkens (sometimes they might not even have speed upgrade for their overlords), so your sairs will reign supreme, your DTs will stop him from securing the map. Your sairs will often enable you to drop his island (generally scourges would prevent this), although sometimes he will have sunkened it already), or at least a 4 dt drop in his main (devastating). One other staple in the play of such a zerg is their drops - almost completely nullified as they won't be able to get through your sairs or if they do, dark templars will help you immensly in cleaning up a dropped base. So let's recap, going sair/dt vs a fast hive/low expo zerg accomplishes this: *Air superiority which can be used to take out any islands/drop main *The means to expand and prevent him from dropping them. *Forces him to start investing in hydras (which are going to severely weaken his fighting power and make your most likely low on archons army that much more effective since hydras without the upgrade advantage are down right weak) + he can't really counter with scourge/devourer as he doesn't have the minerals for devourers or the gas for scourges not to mention the 1+ air attack upgrade you invested in, right? When NOT to use it; *If the zerg player has another main. This isn't ALWAYS true, but it will be a LOT less effective because now he'll actually have the economy and stability required to churn out hydras and actually fight. Storm Drops Yeah, they are lovely and shit but if you are being contained by a zerg you should make DAMN sure he doesn't have scourges, because if he does the likelihood of him having posted a few of them in strategic locations across the map is VERY high - at least use a corsair to spot (even though it can be kind of a tell tale sign of a drop coming -,.-). If the zerg player opened with a hydra rush or is going mass hydras then storm drop is devastating so knock yourself out (also, when fighting hydras you can just mass and upgrade until you reach critical mass because hydras aren't as strong in large numbers and with lots of upgrades). So yeah, storm drop and mass at nat, move out and win in one attack. About corsairs/archons early game You should strive to never make more than 1 corsair early game unless you are doing something special which requires more, but in general if you open 1 gate -> sair -> dt -> expo, it will only slow you down needlessly and perhaps cost you the game as storm is crucial. Now, sometimes, perhaps following early setbacks or whatever, a second corsair might be required to survive but keep in mind that this isn't the ideal situation - in the ideal situation you should be able to sair -> make templars and get storm + cannons, an archon shouldn't even be needed (although again, use your own judgement) as cannon + corsair should be able to fight off the mutalisks until you get storm (which should be soon after the mutalisks arrive) and the 1 or 2 dts you have should be able to fight off any lings (together with the cannons + 2-3 zealots/goon you should have). If he's doing a 2 hatch muta build then you might be forced to make a corsair, but on the other hand, vs a 2 hatcher it's also safe to invest more heavily in cannons than vs a more economic 3 hatch zerg who you'll want to cut as many corners vs as possible (ie never waste - live on the edge). Stuff Archons are the kings of low economy. In the early game of a match where both sides have been very aggressive, archons reign supreme, hands down the best unit, dark templars are quite awesome as well as their ability to quickly kill is going to be felt, as well as the lack of mobile detection (or at least as much mobile detection  ).In late game/a game where both sides have lost their expansions or are just low on probes/drones etc, there are no units more effective than the archon and dark templar. Basically, they are fucking godly. Dark Archons Personally, I don't use them except if I'm going carriers in which case they are close to a must. See, there is no better counter to zerg air than these beauties, devourers, mutalisks and scourges all have a tendency to stack on top of eachother so, unlike when fighting ground units, you will get a high return when maelstroming (the units are also generally more expensive). I don't recommend them as a unit to fight ultralisks personally (unless you are engaging in a war of patience, ie you are in a stalemate and want to steal his units one by one). | ||
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to miss the mark
Bosnia-Herzegovina1381 Posts
Nice post FA  | ||
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Return
Ivory Coast856 Posts
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BlackDevil
France53 Posts
A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment. The thing is, if a zerg player goes hydra/lurker/scourge contain there is absolutely no way you are going to be able to protect your observers (this is hard even if he's doing just ling/lurker scourge, so a few goons is good in this situation as well), and even if you do, if he just keeps on reinforcing his contain you won't be able to get out, hydras just mutilate archons and zealots can't fight lurkers. Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons. Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy. For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations. | ||
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pyrogenetix
United Arab Emirates5091 Posts
but... this is not TL for nothing. yea the thread makes a swerve back on track after FA makes his contribution. seeing as you're from sweden... tack ska du ha! | ||
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aseq
Netherlands3972 Posts
On May 06 2006 22:41 CubEdIn[SoD] wrote: No offense but this is WAY too general. Basic rules: 3. UPGRADE. I cannot stress this enough. 1st upgrade the attack, then armor and shield. Attack is vital especially vs lings. lvl 3 attack pwnz lings because zeals kills them in 2 and archons in 1 hit no matter what upgrades they have. And cracklings do HEAVY damage in late game. Armor (and eventually shield) are also of big importance since most zerg units have very little damage. (fully upg ling - 8 - cutting this down by 3 makes it about 38% less efficient) you WILL suffer the consequences of not up-grading armor in late game. Zeals will become yet even more worthless and lings can take them out with no other support. The upgrade thing is correct for archons, but not for zealots. As they do 2x8 damage, upgrades will make those go up by one each (2x9, 2x10, 2x11). The zergling's armor goes up by 1 but that 1 counters each of the separate zealot's attacks, so effectively fully upgraded zealot vs lings are of the same strength as in the start of the game (zergling attack +1 counters armor+1 & shield+1). The difference lies in the adrenal glands upgrade, this makes the zergs better. For archons, damage goes 30-33-36-39, the last one will always kill a 35hp+3armor ling. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 06:58 pyrogenetix wrote: i dont want to sound harsh so i'll say that blackdevil definately put great effort into writing the post and it was a great reading experience so credit goes to him for that but... this is not TL for nothing. yea the thread makes a swerve back on track after FA makes his contribution. seeing as you're from sweden... tack ska du ha! Haha, nice swedish ;D Unfortunately I dunno how to say you're welcome in chinese, all I can remember from taking some kung fu classes 2 years ago is Ni hao and xie xie ;( | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 06:42 BlackDevil wrote: Excellent post FA, you made many situations extremly clear. A point that I found very interesting is the committed containment. Maybe I just play the wrong opponents, but I generally suceed to break out with Zealots, Archons and h.Temps out of these commited contains. In fact my Zealots and Archons don't go into range for Hydras or Lurkers. (because FA, you're absolutely right on that point: they would have been owned). Also I don't have that many Archons, because I keep a fair amount of h.Temps.My cannons and 1-2archons keep my observers quite safe from harm's way (scourges) while my PSI-Storms kill nearly all his Lurkers and without Lurkers, the Zealots just force his hydras to run away or die. I admit having 2-3 Goons to finish of the lurkers that just received 1 PSI-Storm. But not more than that. My gas goes preferably into h.Temps and then maybe into Archons. Notice: on open ground, (I have the observer speed upgrade), I just fly with them behind my1-2 Archons, and I will be safe against scourge, or at least not loose my observers too easliy. For the rest of the post, I totally agree. I really enjoyed reading your explanations. Well, the problem as I see it is that if you do this he can play hydra lurker and be succesful, kind of like it's good to go hydra lurker vs SK Terran in ZvT. But, well, I suppose it's also a question of style and personal preferences =] | ||
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Lisk
Latvia376 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 07 2006 08:15 Lisk wrote: I'd like to point out that it's "maelSTROM" not maelstorm. Ah, oops =] I'm never sure which it is :D | ||
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On May 07 2006 07:31 aseq wrote: The upgrade thing is correct for archons, but not for zealots. As they do 2x8 damage, upgrades will make those go up by one each (2x9, 2x10, 2x11). The zergling's armor goes up by 1 but that 1 counters each of the separate zealot's attacks, so effectively fully upgraded zealot vs lings are of the same strength as in the start of the game (zergling attack +1 counters armor+1 & shield+1). The difference lies in the adrenal glands upgrade, this makes the zergs better. For archons, damage goes 30-33-36-39, the last one will always kill a 35hp+3armor ling.  I was just going to point that out. | ||
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