|
Terran vs Protoss
Siege expand, the most basic TvP build you should know
+ Show Spoiler +The most basic Build order in the match up is called the "siege expand"
9 Supply
11 Barracks "try to make a marine after building a factory"
12 Refinery
15 Supply "take 2 scvs off gas when you aquire 100 gas"
16 Factory "when the factory is 65% done, add 2 scvs back to gas
21 CC
*Research Siege mode and make an ebay after your command center.
TvP Placement
+ Show Spoiler +Try to have your marines on top of the ramp, because the protoss dragoons can't see up the ramp very well and will miss fire somtimes. You can use your floating barrack in order to cover your marines. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Cq2IJ.png) Keep the tank behind the marines, and if the dragoons try to directly fire at it. Just simply move it back and the marines will continue to fire. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8Lv9s.png) Keeping a tank or 2 on the high ground will protect you from these kinds of attacks all game. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zBnKb.png) If pressure is too strong, you can pull scvs in order to block the ramp or just fight back ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TdqrC.png) spider mines are free, use them when you can. A good terran is a terran who mines the map very well. Mines will -Provide Vision -Slow down reinforcments -Slow down expanding -Kill units -If you mine well, you may even prevent your opponent from running away. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZpxrP.png) Building turrets will kill flying units like shuttles and observers. They will also bug the dragoons to attack the turrets instead of attacking the siege tanks directly. Try to have supply depots and a floating barrack in your push. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wtsOm.png) Buildings, mines and turrets don't allow protoss to engage terran smoothly at all. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yW3Ki.png) When you don't yet have seige mode and you are either defending or FD. The correct way to fight is to keep your tank from getting hit by the goons while your marines are firing. If your army isn't together dragoons can easily pick off marines. If your tank is too exposed, the dragoons will easily kill the tank. Pull the tank back when in danger but keep it in firing range. Keep your marines and tanks in good formation. Scvs can speed ahead of goons and slow down their retreat. They can also repair ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/f9466.png)
Tactics, what to expect
+ Show Spoiler +Scouting is very crucial in all match ups including TvP. A spinning cybernetics core means that the protoss is upgrading the range of dragoons. So he won't be getting any other tech for a bit of time and teching to the next level might not be a good idea without first making another nexus. Stay sharp, protoss can always cancel the upgrade to trick terran and go for either a Reaver or Dark Templar, so keep your scv alive as long as possible. If he plans to go for an aggressive build, your scouting scv will delay it, just as long as it stays alive. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5jhZv.png) Having 2 gateways before a nexus might mean, toss is going for an aggressive opening and terran's FD and 2 gates will have a problem against this. If you notice this, try to go for an economic safe build instead, because in the long run it will pay off. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/frPdC.png) A good rule of thumb is to always count how many pylons a protoss has in his base. For every supply depot that you have, protoss should have the same amount. If you search his base and can't find another pylon, it is most likely somwhere else maybe he wants to proxy DT or Reaver. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sGmez.png) Other notes If you notice protoss is always expanding, don't be surprised. Protoss needs to have atleast 1 more base than terran in order to keep up with him in army size and economy. Science vessels will emp templars and arbiters and can also defence matrix tanks in front of your army. Try to lay mines everywhere, but try to mine them at choke points mainly. You can also try to keep the main choke of your oppenent mined up in order to prevent fast reinforcements. When a protoss is staying on 2 bases while you are going for a heavy 5 factory push, it might be best to take a 3rd because protoss knows about your push and is pumping units from just two bases to overwhelm you. Think of it like an FD vs a 2 gate goon. If you go for an early expansion either a 1 rax fe or a 21 cc, toss will most likely go for a fast 3rd. Somtimes you can punish this by going for an early 3 factory timing attack, however if toss has a good composition of units such as, more zealots to take care of your tanks or more goons to take care of your vultures, you may be out of luck. A dark templar may also prevent you from doing well. Try to have 3 turrets, 1 in your main another in your expansion and another at your choke or your choke's cliff. When slowley pushing out towards the protoss's natural or an expansion. Try to scan the surrounding areas or use vultures to scout out and quickly siege. The protoss will only engage the terran army if it is moving or unsieged. If a zealot is in the mix of an early game attack, try to get rid of him first. If you have anymore please post down below
Coming soon
How to deal with Reaver
+ Show Spoiler +
|
Nice, good to see people are putting in big effort to do these! However what would be most helpful to all us hopeless hopeful foreign Terrans, would be some solid TvT builds, more than just 12cc :3
|
United States10122 Posts
On September 05 2012 10:20 bITt.mAN wrote:
Nice, good to see people are putting in big effort to do these! However what would be most helpful to all us hopeless hopeful foreign Terrans, would be some solid TvT builds, more than just 12cc :3
you 12 cc? y not 14cc? Heh.
ty for putting this up! happy to see people havent given up yet :D
|
Good stuff and it would seem that I get the MU or at least view it the same way you do. I gotta try the floating barracks trick next time I get pressured  Thanks!
|
i see its for begginers so You could add some nice micro & macro tricks like:
-magic box
-build spam trick
-walking through wall by units
-when add second factory when we wanna builds goliaths only
and many more
|
What's a build spam trick? o.o
|
buildin in place where scv cant get
![[image loading]](http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2447/3832033926_1e84534d65.jpg)
with this technic you can go with scv trough walls, blocked mineral lines etc
|
good guide but advices how to handle carriers and arbiters are required
|
Im not even a terran player and i can tell you that.
Arbiters-Vessels for EMP
Carrier-Ranged Goliaths.
|
Of course the counters are standard, but it's hard to deal with 2 base carriers that is covered with ground army. And also 2 base arbiters is tricky business since you don't know if he is going for recall or stasis bust.
|
Really nice guides for beginner players. Really basic essential info that usually goes unexplained written in a very readable format.
|
I read it and it was helpful .
|
|
|
great guide. one thing to point out is based on what your opponent is doing you can alter the build like delaying/skipping your ebay, or delaying siege.
|
Wow, after 12 years there is always a little trick that I didn't know on BW :D.
|
is there one of these for TVZ and TVT?
btw, things you should add
-transitions from the siege expand
-basic flow of a standard macro TVP
- when to take everything upgrades, third, etc
- defending against protoss cheese
- how much a base can affordin terms of fac-starport count
|
On September 12 2012 16:56 Glioburd wrote:Wow, after 12 years there is always a little trick that I didn't know on BW :D.
same here!
|
On September 06 2012 03:56 UPro-BW wrote:
good guide but advices how to handle carriers and arbiters are required
I can suggest some solution .... but I am just a D+ terran not sure my advise is really that good .
|
one thing I found boring with TvP is that you can never engage a protoss at start and mid game, even if P takes natural + 2 more expos you cant really punnish P for this, even if you have just taken natural and go all in for vults+tank, the Protoss will still have much bigger army and can easily outnumber you. only thing you can do is try with vult harass, but there are few Protoss nowadays that doesnt cover this with pylons or a few goons guarding.
Only good tacc is to defend and also expand more, while going for 200/200. this is a bit boring sometimes, with so little options before going into lategame.
|
Actually you are quite wrong.4 5 and/or 6 fact are designed especially for punishing greedy tosses in the midgame
|
It would be nice if someone did the same for the other races. I don't main Terran, but this is a very interesting read!
|
If your going to write a guide at least use sources (Both the OP and posters):
(1) A 4-6 factory push is NOT an optimal timing attack. In fact, if you look through all the PvT VODs since the 2010-2011 Proleague Season (When Circuit Breaker, Aztec, Bloody Ridge, La Mancha, etc...were introduced) you will only find a handful of the 100s of PvT games where a Terran goes for an allin midgame push. The only game I can even really remember on the top of my head is Shuttle vs Reality @ Sniper Ridge (4 Factory push) and Bisu vs Hon_Sin @ Sniper Ridge (But Hon_Sin used a 2 factory push that killed Bisu's natural expansion so I'm not really sure if that counts even though Hon_Sin did follow up with a 5 Factory push). The reason why is because the Protoss' Observer arrives to the Terran base as the Terran is adding the Factories, so if the Terran player is playing against a Protoss who knows the theory behind defeating a 5 Factory push the Terran becomes severely behind. And its counter intuitive to play a strategy game if you rely on your opponent simply not knowing how to play against your build. Other than hoping your opponent doesn't scout your expansion and hiding the Factories in your expansion there is really no way to hide the fact you're doing a 5 Factory push from a Protoss.
Moreover, your scouting section is incomplete. If a Terran runs their SCV around the Protoss base until the SCV dies that means the Terran player is a newb and isn't going to play optimally in the midgame since they won't know what kind of strategy they are against. You will not find a professional Terran player who runs their SCV around a Protoss base like most Terran players presume. However, if a Terran simply sends a scouting SCV in about 2-3 seconds before Dragoon Range finishes they can deduce a 100% efficient response to any strategy the Protoss is using (ex: Flash vs Jangbi @ Bloody Ridge OSL RO8). When you scout at that timing you look for if Dragoon range completes and a Protoss Nexus. If you scout:
(a) 1 Nexus + Range: The Protoss is playing standard and the Terran should either make a Third CC off 1 Factory or commit to a 2 Base 2 Factory 3 Tank 3 Vulture + Marine attack timing (Depending on the map).
(b) 1 Nexus + No Range: Attack with the FD (6 Marines + Tank + Vulture/Mines).
(c) No Nexus + Range: Block the front with Barracks/Depot and get an Engineering Bay to protect against a Dragoon ferry into the main base and Reaver followup (This build is shown in Jangbi vs Mind @ Ground Zero).
(d) No Nexus + No Range: Get an Engineering Bay off 1 Factory and prepare for DT (Walking or Dropped in main) and/or Reavers. (ex: Shy vs Iris @ Sniper Ridge).
There are more modern methods to deduct the same scout timings other than the SCV timing I specified earlier, but I'll let Terran players go out and find those timings themselves if they want to never lose to a cheese again. However, I hope I showed how you can make sure you source your information in guides and when giving playing advice to make sure the information your giving is actually legitimate and not made up or inefficient.
Edit: Another misconception a lot of newbie Terrans have about TvP is attacking with an FD. A Terran should not attack with an FD against a Dragoon Range build unless they want to coin flip against a Protoss who goes for a 1 Dragoon Nexus (The SK Nexus Build) where the Protoss only follows up with one Gateway. This is because the Protoss will only have 3 Dragoons to defend against an FD at this time. In theory, 3 Dragoons will clean up an FD without a Protoss losing a single Dragoons, however its possible the Protoss may make a micro management mistake and the Terran can end up ahead. However, a Terran should NEVER attack with an FD against 4 or more Dragoons that have range (So against a standard build the Protoss will have 4 Dragoons + Range so the Terran shouldn't attack with the FD).
The builds a Protoss will have 4+ Dragoons: 10/15 Gateway, 2 Dragoon Expand (Most common PvT opening...some newbs who get their Nexus ~30 seconds late call this a 3 Dragoon expand), 13 Nexus, SK Nexus build (2 Gateway version like Bisu vs Baby @ Alternative in its debut).
|
On September 14 2012 04:14 t0ssboy wrote:
Actually you are quite wrong.4 5 and/or 6 fact are designed especially for punishing greedy tosses in the midgame
There are all ins you can do, and timing attacks that punish GREEDY play. But if the Protoss isn't making a mistake, Abso is right: You can't attack. Only if he makes a mistake, or if you decide to go all in. Both of those things aren't gonna happend too much at high level play. You won't be able to punish greedy play because there won't be any. The Protoss won't over extend and give you an opportunity to kill him with a timing. As for all ins, they can work rarely even at a proffessional level, but in ZvP / PvZ you can do harassment and small attacks without going all in, so he still has a point. You get more of it than in TvP.
|
Uhm, I think this guide was meant for very noob players, I wouldn't really criticize it that much.
|
On September 06 2012 03:56 UPro-BW wrote:
good guide but advices how to handle carriers and arbiters are required
The question shouldn't be "how to handle a certain threat with a certain tactics?". The question is "how can I win the game before that circumstances even arise in the first place?".
And the answer to that is to macro better, scan at the proper time intervals. From the gathered information, know the correct timing to place down Turrets + Mine defenses.
|
On September 05 2012 09:23 Savi[wOk] wrote:
9 Supply
11 Barracks "try to make a marine after building a factory"
12 Refinery
15 Supply "take 2 scvs off gas when you aquire 100 gas"
16 Factory "when the factory is 65% done, add 2 scvs back to gas
21 CC
*Research Siege mode and make an ebay after your command center.
[/spoiler]
you don't need to add scvs back on gas until the factory is 100% and you start your machine shop
|
On September 05 2012 09:23 Savi[wOk] wrote:
Coming soon
How to deal with Reaver
Expect to write a novel. Literally.
+ Show Spoiler +
|
On October 26 2012 06:17 NeVeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 09:23 Savi[wOk] wrote:
Coming soon
How to deal with Reaver
Expect to write a novel. Literally. + Show Spoiler +
The reaver is a unit that the protoss makes when they want to have to try.
|
and when they do try it's scary x__x
|
Since everyone on ICCUP seems to be toss, thanks for the write up :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
