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DruidzShift
Sweden71 Posts
I am rank D pretty new to SCBW,Going from sc2. I have a question,In late game vs zerg should i go to mass mech/vessel or SK-terran? I think SK-terran might be a little bit harder to micro then mass mech. What do you like and what do you think is the best for late games vs zerg? | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
Pro's might also be able to take advantage of the certain timings where a bio-> mech terran is weak. Whereas lower lvl players don't or can't. In conclusion: I'd say sk terran is strongest at pro lvl which is why we see it so often. But at lower lvl's mech seems a lot stronger because zergs don't have gosu queen micro and don't see the strategy that much either (so often don't even know how to respond). mech also requires less babysitting (micro) in my opinion. So it might be easier to execute on a mechanics lvl. Note: I'm new at broodwar, take with grain of salt. I just like to post and contribute. | ||
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Pyre_Fly
United Kingdom31 Posts
The mech switch is difficult to pull off, but the idea is that it takes advantage of the massive amount of pressure that you have already been putting on the Zerg through the early and mid game. The way Zerg deals with mech is having a lot of expansions and powering. If you have a big bio army in the mid game, it doesnt allow the Zerg to get those bases up, and so you have a timing window where you can mass up mech units and push. Once you hit a decent/critical mass of mech units, the Zerg likely wont have enough stuff to break it. Also, if they stick with making ultras, so much the better. Personally, I wouldnt say one is harder over the other, given the timings and upgrades for mech, and the macro speed/micro needed for SK Terran. | ||
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Toasterbaked
United States160 Posts
Queens are a very unorthodox solution and gets shut down by EMP of it is scouted, and the huge amount of PSI spent in energy-depleted queens can easily cost you the game. The pros of SK Terran is that it has (obviously) amazing mobility and is very effiecient with a small number of expansions (2-3). However, mech becomes much stronger as the number of bases increase, because even pro's can't keep up with macro with the insane number of marines requiring to be produced and micro'd. Also, SK Terran is incredibly fragile, meaning a few micro mistakes (running marines into lurkers, ect.) can cost you the game, not to mention that mass marine + vessel is becomes very very weak once Zerg gets plague. The mech upgrades scale well, and zergs will have a very hard time shutting down mech with full upgrades. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
SK Terran is still viable to a certain degree of course, and if you have a play-style that's centered around aggression and multitasking, and you simply find it more fun/challenging/satisfying to go for it, then by all means work on that. But if you're asking what's objectively best, I don't think bio-play has much going for it. Heavy fucking metal all the way. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
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TurboDreams
United States427 Posts
@ xxpack09: I feel that ultras are not so hard if you start adding firebats to your M&M army to kill off zerglings | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
To answer your question in the most exact way though, the pros like to open bio and switch to mech because the zerg trend is to rush to defilers as soon as possible, and defilers kinda suck vs mech so you kind of make their whole game plan for not. It's extremely powerful if you know what you are doing. If you don't know what you're doing tho, you should just add on some starports or facs to spend your gas on vessels and tanks. You can mech switch if you want, but do it because you think it's fun, or do it because you know your strategy very well. Don't just do it because you've seen it in vods, you'll win more often just sticking to bio if you don't really know what you're doing. | ||
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
you also kinda force him to be in a position where he would have to decide on unit composition. but at d level, sk terran works really well. even at higher levels, the high vessel count is very hard to deal with. A good demo game of mech transition is | ||
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gutshot
United States429 Posts
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ymir233
United States8275 Posts
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GTR
51582 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
If you want to feel sexy and beautiful, do SK Terran. If you want to be a Terran scumbag, then play mech. But know that while you're doing that, you're losing a small percentage of sexiness for every second that you're not doing SK Terran. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:00 icystorage wrote: if you have the proper mechanics, then SK! there's nothing scarier than a vessel cloud A mass of 3-3 tanks is scarier. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:00 icystorage wrote: if you have the proper mechanics, then SK! there's nothing scarier than a vessel cloud Lategame tank walls are always scarier than vessel clouds. | ||
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Toasterbaked
United States160 Posts
On May 11 2012 00:00 icystorage wrote: if you have the proper mechanics, then SK! there's nothing scarier than a vessel cloud Marines and vessels have to annoy the Zerg to death On the other hand... Tanks roll over zergs | ||
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storkfan
493 Posts
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heliusx
United States2306 Posts
you have to annoy the zerg to death in all tvz games. i like to play tvz in a reactionary style. preventing the 3rd gas is pretty vital to dominating the zerg. make sure you know what the zerg is doing at all times. | ||
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storkfan
493 Posts
On May 10 2012 08:41 Musiq wrote: Pyre_Fly pretty much nailed it, Mech is so much better if you put plenty of pressure on Zerg midgame hence why modern TvZ revolves around either a fast ebay after first rax (turtle early to have a upgrade advantage) or mass rax vs 3 hatch mutalisk to fight on the field and deny the 3rd gas. SKTerran is still very viable, you just have to really abuse drops and have excellent use of mines. @ xxpack09: I feel that ultras are not so hard if you start adding firebats to your M&M army to kill off zerglings Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17733 Posts
On May 10 2012 21:49 GTR wrote: at a lower level it is easier to do mech than to do sk terran I agree with you on full mech but I actually have been trying to practice bio into late game mech switch lately and I find it tricky actually making the full switch. Once you actually make the switch mech is easier, but actually making the switch seems complicated to me. I found transitioning into sk terran when you open with bio a lot easier because you just need to add a second port, take a third and add more raxes. While with the mech switch, have to add facts, armory, know when to stop producing from raxes, lift them, pressure with the remaining rines and vessels you have while using mines for map control. Maybe its because I have been a sk terran style user for a while so its more of trying to break old habits that I'm finding difficult. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
That said you are D rank and therefore learning. You shouldn't do something because it is the best for progamers, but because it has the highest payout for YOU. That's why I'm going to advocate that you learn SK Terran late game. In the short run it will be much harder and more frustrating and you will take more losses, especially whenever you let the Zerg take too many bases and he starts making a gazillion ultras and it will feel as though you are working twice as hard as he is and yet steadily losing ground. But you have to look at this as an investment. Learning to control bionic armies and simultaneously maintain production, learning how to minimize Zerg expansion efforts, etc., is not going to be done by studying the mech transition. And this is important because there are many different timings to the mech transition and several different approaches to utilizing mech -- it is not just one build or even just one strategy -- and some of these involve more use of bionic than others. You won't get good at this game without learning mid/late bionic control and proper midgame map control with bionic. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
Two/three factories speed vultures + mines is deadly against zerg's late game composition. Until C- level, players don't mine sweep properly with a good overlord spread + mutas or hydras, and then you can use vultures with no mines to raid expos. Actually even at pro level we often see huge mine daebaks on lurkers/defilers/ultras. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
The hardest part about late mech is doing the transition quick enough that Zerg doesn't end up just mass droning into unlimited ultras it needs to be a very smooth transition. You don't wanna float to 3k because you forgot to pump bio while making vults. SKTerran simply doesn't have enough muscle late-game against good Zergs. SKTerran is really for very open maps with a flat or open 3rd where Zerg will have to spend more resources trying to protect it, like Eye of the Storm or Odd Eye or possibly reverse ramp maps. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10365 Posts
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Operations
115 Posts
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Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
dont listen to anybody saying one is better than the other, even if it is from a pro (sea, hiya, ...). both styles have their pro and con based on your starting build and zerg starting build and the map. both styles are hard because bw is not an easy game. it doesnt matter which one u want to play. On May 10 2012 15:36 gutshot wrote: as a zerg player, I would say late-mech is wayyyyyyyyyy more harder to deal with than SK-terran but it's also harder for them to execute imo for me late mech is easier to deal with than sk terran. | ||
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jpak
United States5045 Posts
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brolaf
291 Posts
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kade
94 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On May 29 2012 13:53 jpak wrote: Go SKTerran. You will learn to multitask and at that level, most zergs ill not be able to keep up, especially if you start dropping marines too. I found SKTerran much much easier than late mech, the multitasking is even easier. You definitely need more apm with SKTerran but less multitasking if that makes any sense. The hardest part about late-mech is the multitasking required during the transition, making facts, lifting raxes, mining the map, 3rd base, while still microing/macroing a paltry 5-rax bio army and not forgetting to pump vessels from 1 starport. Most often I die there or lose to the mass ultra followup because I stopped being aggressive during that time. Building up rax count and maintaining a large vessel/bio count from 2 Starports/8 Raxes is pretty easy, I used to rarely go above 500 minerals while staying aggressive and irradiating everything. Problem is you will hit a brick wall where you will have to learn late mech anyway because just like pure mech, SKTerran is really only viable on certain maps after a certain level of skill. At low levels of skill, players don't create scourge or plague your vessels so its pretty easy to just irradiate 20 ultras and eraser his bases and win the game, but after a certain point they will start plaguing your vessels and scourging them, making it really difficult because you don't have enough muscle to push through endless darkswarms and actually kill his bases while holding more than 2-3 bases. | ||
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Saline
United States73 Posts
So, let's talk about late game. Meaning zerg has >=5 bases, and has good enough macro to pretty much constantly pump lurkers, lings, and defilers, and they have the money to push ultras. This is when things get difficult for SKTerran. You're moving around the map with 3-4 groups of medice/marines and about 12 vessels, irradiating everything in sight, stimming nonstop. But you can't get into those bases fast enough--there's always swarm defending, lurkers, etc. Zerg's pushes become more deadly as ultras get speed on top of swarm. This is where Terran mech comes in: it allows map control against swarm, which otherwise is something that's only obtained by pure aggression. A zerg fighting against bio that wants to push can do easily with swarm. Terran must always retreat. Instead, going mech gives you a line of tanks that let more or less nothing across. It also gives Terran the ability to harass in ways they couldn't otherwise--with speed vultures. Flash is exceptionally good at this, sending groups of vultures to various expos and killing all of the drones. And mines are great for absorbing big groups of lings that otherwise could do huge amounts of damage. But maintaining map control as mech against a Z is REALLY apm-demanding, because zerg is so damn mobile. You need turrents, mine fields, and lots and lots of tanks. Knowing when to push is something that's really difficult. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
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Operations
115 Posts
On May 31 2012 21:39 XenOsky- wrote: winning with SK terran vs defiler/ultra/crakling is one of the best feelings in the world... if you are manly enough try SK... Starship Troopers mass marines style for the motha fucking win. | ||
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Poetic[AoV]
United Kingdom183 Posts
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kade
94 Posts
On May 11 2012 06:45 storkfan wrote: Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof. then they lose their natural once you get 2 groups of mm | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On May 11 2012 06:45 storkfan wrote: Pros dont actually use 1rax ebay much any more.. its back to the classics these days - 2 rax acad and mnm pre muta to force sunks. 1rax ebay can be countered by zerg getting 0 sunks so its not fool proof. i personally don't think that this is quite right? in the previous proleague season, i recall seeing 1 rax ebay the staple build in tvz because the +1 attack s simply way too good against the mutas. | ||
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