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[G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-14 16:04:33
May 07 2012 06:05 GMT
#1
[image loading]


[image loading]

Less than a week ago I finally got around to forwarding my ports after over ten years of lat tricking to create games. It was due to my inability to host that I came to consider myself a series player, since to play a lot of games I had to play the same person—usually a friendly rival or something. It's a very different kind of StarCraft, and one that I still consider StarCraft in its purest form, but that isn't to say there isn't a value to the kind of StarCraft played vs new opponents every game on the ladder.

I have wondered for a long time how well I would actually do on ladder, especially given how different a game it is. I became highly motivated to give it my best shot and develop skills that have gone untested by the nature of series play. This meant analysing the nature of ladder to determine the skills most critical to its own nature. Those are:

I A comprehensive understanding of one's strategy.
(because at a minimum, everyone else on the ladder will be getting their initial timings with extreme efficiency)

II A high amount of stability vs various strategies.
(because there is not a lot of metagame and you don't want to be guessing)

III A devotion to a single strategy.
(because you are playing against strangers you probably won't rematch, so you only need to be good at one to maximize success)

In my mind these are the bare minimum. It is difficult to just screw around and do whatever on the ladder because your opponent's are practicing a single strategy which is not easily predicted. Series play punishes players who practice a single strategy and the games become more freestyle vs low level players, but on iCCup even D+ players have at least their first timings down to some extent. Another thing one could do is play only one match up, but I think that is lame and bad manner considering how few people actually make pubbies for people to join. If you've ever been on the side of the fence where you can't make, you know how hard it is to find a game, so I have at least that much compassion.

With this in mind I had to choose three strategies, one for each matchup. I threw standard play out the window for two reasons: It is difficult to master, and even more difficult to master vs players who are used to it and are using builds designed to work against it. I don't need to give my opponents any unnecessary advantages, so I chose some styles I liked and copied those I could have and have before created my own, but whatever I knew is long lost now and I was excited to ladder, not for the frustration of starting from scratch. The strategy I chose for ZvT was MaeJang's proxy hatch / lurker-drop based play, for ZvP Satanik's 4hat 2base before gas, and for ZvZ Satanik's hydra-build of course. This is why:

[image loading]

Unmotivated, zero-multitask and muta micro from 1999 (that means if there's any stacking it's done my clicking on a friendly or neutral unit, no overlord switching). You know what that sounds like to me? Easy and fun. MaeJang's replay pack description was not all-together different. A bm player with awesome style but not the highest rank. Old school style suits me since I played a lot in the days when 1base Protoss was normal, and it appealed to me to use old school responses to Protoss and Terran who expo aggressively and beyond their ability.

You might be noticing that I haven't said shit about Hydra ZvZ specifically yet, and already you've been reading for nearly 5 minutes. The reason is because I want to describe my method of learning perfectly so that you can emulate it when choosing from styles YOU like besides Hydra ZvZ, and because I want to show you what humble beginnings you can start from when learning this game if you are frustrated and losing at the low ranks. Teach a man to fish, so to speak. Well this was my method:

I i Given limited replays to study from (Satanik only uploaded a few), I used the BWAPI plugin for Chaos Launcher to generate the build order files. They produced the following: + Show Spoiler [bos] +
+ Show Spoiler [zvz1] +
Build order for Star.sataNik:
9 - Overlord (0:55)
9 - Pool (1:18)
11 - Expand (2:05)
11 - Hatchery (2:05)
10 - Zergling (2:10)
11 - Zergling (2:11)
12 - Zergling (2:16)
13 - Zergling (2:25)
14 - Zergling (2:40)
15 - Hatchery (2:59)
14 - Zergling (3:00)
15 - Zergling (3:08)
18 - Overlord (3:35)
18 - Colony (3:40)
19 - Colony (3:54)
22 - Colony (4:14)
22 - Zergling (4:19)
25 - Colony (4:30)
24 - Zergling (4:30)
26 - Colony (4:39)
27 - Overlord (4:52)
28 - Colony (5:00)
27 - Chamber (5:04)
27 - Colony (5:10)
26 - Colony (5:19)
26 - Colony (5:26)
29 - Colony (5:35)
29 - Colony (5:37)
29 - Colony (5:40)
28 - Colony (5:51)
28 - Colony (5:52)
28 - Colony (5:59)
27 - Colony (6:00)
29 - Colony (6:05)
32 - Colony (6:15)
31 - Overlord (6:21)
31 - Colony (6:28)
31 - Colony (6:42)
35 - Extractor (6:51)
35 - Extractor (6:56)
35 - Overlord (7:12)
35 - Hatchery (7:15)
35 - Lair tech (7:37)
38 - Colony (7:44)
43 - Missile Attacks (7:51)
43 - Colony (8:03)
43 - Colony (8:05)
42 - Den (8:08)
42 - Colony (8:16)
41 - Overlord (8:19)
41 - Overlord (8:20)
43 - Colony (8:33)
42 - Grooved Spines (8:35)
42 - Hydralisk (8:38)
43 - Hydralisk (8:39)
44 - Overlord (8:41)
44 - Overlord (8:43)
45 - Colony (8:48)
44 - Hydralisk (8:57)
47 - Hydralisk (8:58)
47 - Hydralisk (8:58)
47 - Hydralisk (8:58)
48 - Hydralisk (9:01)
49 - Hydralisk (9:03)
54 - Carapace (9:21)
59 - Muscular Augments (9:41)
77 - Ventral Sacs (12:19)

Build order for LISBETSALANDER:
9 - Overlord (0:54)
12 - Hatchery (1:42)
11 - Pool (1:59)
10 - Extractor (2:05)
13 - Zergling (2:51)
13 - Zergling (2:51)
14 - Zergling (2:52)
15 - Zergling (2:58)
16 - Lair tech (3:04)
16 - Overlord (3:10)
16 - Zergling (3:12)
17 - Metabolic Boost (3:26)
17 - Zergling (3:27)
18 - Zergling (3:37)
19 - Zergling (3:38)
20 - Zergling (3:47)
21 - Zergling (3:49)
22 - Zergling (4:03)
23 - Zergling (4:04)
24 - Spire (4:14)
23 - Zergling (4:22)
24 - Zergling (4:23)
25 - Zergling (4:34)
26 - Overlord (4:49)
26 - Overlord (5:11)
28 - Mutalisk (5:30)
28 - Mutalisk (5:30)
30 - Expand (5:54)
30 - Hatchery (5:54)
30 - Flyer Carapace (6:14)
34 - Mutalisk (6:48)
36 - Overlord (6:57)
40 - Overlord (7:23)
43 - Den (7:45)
46 - Scourge (7:58)
48 - Mutalisk (8:07)
50 - Extractor (8:07)
59 - Lurker Aspect (9:01)
74 - Lurker (10:21)
77 - Expand (10:34)
94 - Muscular Augments (11:50)
48 - Zergling (12:46)
48 - Zergling (12:46)
48 - Lurker (12:58)
48 - Lurker (12:58)
48 - Lurker (12:58)
48 - Zergling (13:07)
48 - Zergling (13:08)

+ Show Spoiler [zvz2] +
Build order for Star.Dark:
9 - Overlord (0:58)
12 - Pool (1:36)
11 - Extractor (1:42)
11 - Expand (2:25)
11 - Hatchery (2:25)
11 - Zergling (2:27)
11 - Zergling (2:27)
12 - Zergling (2:29)
13 - Metabolic Boost (2:42)
13 - Zergling (2:50)
14 - Zergling (2:55)
15 - Zergling (3:13)
16 - Lair tech (3:19)
16 - Zergling (3:25)
17 - Overlord (3:40)
17 - Zergling (3:42)
21 - Spire (4:26)
22 - Zergling (4:43)
23 - Zergling (4:45)
24 - Zergling (4:50)
25 - Overlord (5:00)
25 - Colony (5:19)
24 - Colony (5:26)
25 - Zergling (5:28)
25 - Zergling (5:28)
25 - Zergling (5:28)
29 - Mutalisk (5:43)
29 - Mutalisk (5:43)
31 - Mutalisk (5:49)
35 - Colony (6:03)
34 - Overlord (6:13)
34 - Overlord (6:29)
39 - Flyer Carapace (6:50)
45 - Hatchery (7:51)
42 - Hatchery (7:52)
42 - Chamber (7:59)
41 - Extractor (7:59)
44 - Overlord (8:22)
44 - Zerg Melee Attacks (8:27)
44 - Mutalisk (8:30)
46 - Mutalisk (8:35)
48 - Mutalisk (8:39)
83 - Zerg Carapace (10:44)
46 - Mutalisk (13:11)
48 - Zergling (13:18)
49 - Colony (13:21)
48 - Zergling (13:32)
48 - Zergling (13:32)
49 - Zergling (13:32)
49 - Zergling (13:39)
46 - Colony (13:42)
45 - Scourge (13:42)
40 - Zergling (13:50)
34 - Zergling (13:55)
34 - Zergling (13:55)
34 - Zergling (13:55)
34 - Zergling (13:57)
36 - Colony (13:58)
33 - Colony (14:03)

Build order for Star.sataNik:
9 - Overlord (0:55)
11 - Pool (1:29)
12 - Expand (2:09)
12 - Hatchery (2:09)
12 - Zergling (2:20)
12 - Zergling (2:20)
13 - Zergling (2:24)
14 - Zergling (2:38)
15 - Hatchery (2:55)
14 - Zergling (2:57)
15 - Zergling (3:10)
16 - Zergling (3:26)
17 - Zergling (3:31)
18 - Colony (3:32)
17 - Overlord (3:41)
19 - Colony (3:45)
22 - Zergling (4:14)
24 - Colony (4:22)
27 - Overlord (4:44)
34 - Chamber (5:17)
34 - Colony (5:21)
33 - Colony (5:27)
33 - Colony (5:30)
33 - Colony (5:43)
33 - Colony (5:44)
33 - Colony (5:45)
33 - Colony (5:47)
32 - Colony (5:53)
31 - Colony (6:00)
31 - Colony (6:00)
35 - Colony (6:10)
35 - Colony (6:13)
35 - Overlord (6:19)
35 - Overlord (6:27)
35 - Colony (6:34)
34 - Overlord (6:35)
34 - Colony (6:40)
33 - Overlord (6:43)
34 - Colony (6:49)
33 - Colony (6:50)
35 - Extractor (6:56)
36 - Colony (7:01)
36 - Colony (7:05)
45 - Colony (7:33)
47 - Den (7:46)
47 - Extractor (7:52)
49 - Colony (8:10)
48 - Zerg Carapace (8:13)
51 - Grooved Spines (8:32)
51 - Hatchery (8:38)
50 - Hatchery (8:42)
53 - Hydralisk (8:58)
55 - Lair tech (9:03)
62 - Muscular Augments (9:39)
70 - Carapace (10:14)
71 - Missile Attacks (11:02)
88 - Ventral Sacs (11:41)
71 - Lurker Aspect (13:22)

+ Show Spoiler [zvz3] +
Build order for star.not0:
9 - Expand (1:19)
9 - Hatchery (1:19)
9 - Overlord (1:35)
9 - Pool (1:56)
9 - Extractor (2:09)
13 - Zergling (2:48)
13 - Zergling (2:48)
13 - Zergling (2:48)
14 - Zergling (2:49)
15 - Metabolic Boost (3:04)
15 - Zergling (3:08)
16 - Zergling (3:14)
17 - Lair tech (3:26)
17 - Overlord (3:40)
23 - Zergling (4:22)
25 - Zergling (4:24)
25 - Zergling (4:24)
26 - Spire (4:41)
26 - Overlord (4:48)
24 - Zergling (5:26)
24 - Zergling (5:26)
24 - Zergling (5:26)
28 - Expand (5:38)
28 - Hatchery (5:38)
27 - Hatchery (5:51)
28 - Scourge (5:57)
29 - Scourge (5:59)
31 - Overlord (6:25)
30 - Chamber (6:33)
29 - Overlord (6:34)
29 - Expand (6:42)
29 - Hatchery (6:42)
28 - Overlord (6:44)
31 - Flyer Carapace (7:01)
34 - Extractor (7:12)
33 - Zerg Melee Attacks (7:15)
34 - Overlord (7:25)
35 - Hatchery (7:48)
37 - Overlord (8:06)
37 - Overlord (8:06)
37 - Overlord (8:06)
42 - Mutalisk (8:26)
42 - Mutalisk (8:26)
42 - Mutalisk (8:26)
46 - Mutalisk (8:33)
46 - Mutalisk (8:33)
48 - Mutalisk (8:34)
97 - Expand (11:34)
128 - Hive tech (12:49)
143 - Adrenal Glands (14:43)
142 - Zerg Carapace (14:58)
140 - Guardian (15:26)
140 - Cavern (15:46)
143 - Zerg Flyer Attacks (16:09)
75 - None (18:47)
72 - Expand (19:06)
71 - Expand (19:07)
42 - Colony (21:38)
41 - Colony (21:42)
40 - Colony (21:44)
39 - Colony (21:46)
38 - Chamber (21:47)
38 - Colony (21:53)
40 - Colony (21:57)
40 - Colony (22:02)
36 - Colony (22:06)
35 - Colony (22:12)
36 - Colony (22:26)
36 - Zergling (22:28)
36 - Zergling (22:28)

Build order for Star.sataNik:
9 - Overlord (0:58)
11 - Pool (1:31)
12 - Expand (2:14)
12 - Hatchery (2:14)
12 - Zergling (2:23)
12 - Zergling (2:23)
13 - Zergling (2:26)
14 - Zergling (2:39)
15 - Zergling (2:55)
16 - Hatchery (2:55)
15 - Zergling (3:10)
16 - Overlord (3:27)
16 - Colony (3:32)
18 - Colony (3:47)
20 - Overlord (4:07)
21 - Extractor (4:13)
30 - Overlord (5:03)
27 - Zergling (5:24)
27 - Zergling (5:24)
30 - Lair tech (5:32)
30 - Chamber (5:33)
29 - Colony (5:35)
29 - Zergling (5:43)
30 - Colony (5:47)
30 - Colony (5:52)
30 - Colony (5:56)
32 - Colony (5:58)
32 - Colony (6:03)
31 - Colony (6:04)
31 - Colony (6:10)
30 - Colony (6:17)
30 - Colony (6:19)
31 - Colony (6:28)
30 - Overlord (6:32)
31 - Colony (6:34)
31 - Colony (6:39)
31 - Colony (6:42)
30 - Extractor (6:52)
29 - Spire (6:57)
34 - Overlord (7:19)
34 - Overlord (7:27)
34 - Colony (7:33)
37 - Overlord (7:49)
40 - Colony (7:53)
39 - Overlord (8:01)
39 - Flyer Carapace (8:15)
41 - Mutalisk (8:16)
41 - Mutalisk (8:16)
45 - Mutalisk (8:17)
45 - Mutalisk (8:17)
47 - Mutalisk (8:19)
72 - Zerg Carapace (10:17)
75 - Nest (10:26)
74 - Den (10:46)
73 - Hive tech (11:06)
72 - Hydralisk (11:12)
73 - Grooved Spines (11:13)
92 - Muscular Augments (12:25)
97 - Devourer (13:41)
99 - Lurker Aspect (13:52)
124 - Lurker (15:09)
100 - Expand (20:26)

ii I put the three text files side by side and looked for similarities and wrote them down: + Show Spoiler [a note] +
[image loading]


II Given a lot of replay files (as in the case of MaeJang's ZvT) I used Lord Martin Replay Browser to keep track of what I had already watched and organize them a little, and simply went through each one with my fingers on the u (speed up) and d (speed down) keys to absorb how he dealt with every situation. First I took note of his build order and what he seemed to get every game, and when I became intimately familiar with it, I looked to other parts of his play with those assumed. The above method would also be very useful, but since I was winning games just off what I had absorbed watching 20 or so of his ZvTs, I never got around to it (initially I had watched them for fun, since I didn't even have plans to deal with my router yet).

I hope you're noticing something. I studied before I played. There's a misconception with a lot of players that you can just mass game and eventually get good no matter what. If you are not thinking and don't know what you're doing and aren't learning, you will just repeat the same strategic mistakes with maybe a little higher apm and better macro. This is basically what I'd call brute forcing your way to C-. You can do it with very little strategy, but you will be a boring player and react badly to unusual play. You will also sound stupid when you talk about the game, because your rank will not be a reflection of your understanding, only your mechanics. Chess and Go players study their game a lot in between games, and it's very necessary to advancing as a StarCraft player. Believe me though, it is rewarding and its own kind of fun. It's also what makes Brood War a game of intelligence and not the keyboard bashing that some outsiders see it as.

What I experienced was incredible success, and I hope you will too. This guide will only cover the basics, because that is all I really know. For advanced tactics and clever responses, you will have to play it by ear and learn from experience, although I will try to offer a few suggestions (I haven't had enough experience to speak confidently on the stranger situations).

[image loading]

Here's my piece of paper transcribed to digital text. I kept the paper beside my computer so I could look at it if I was hesitant about a detail. Ideally you eventually memorise it just by repetition ;p

11 pool
12 expo
15 hatch
16-18 colonies (2)
24 colony
30ish chamber
[14] or so colonies, keep 30 drones
35 [2] extractors
40 or so den
80ish hydras attack, rally

edit: I would like to note that in retrospect, I think BWAPI was counting failed actions or maybe morph spore as a build colony action. I never build 14 colonies in my own games and I don't think satanik did either... Generally it is moe like 4 per base for spores, and then an extra sunk or two if necessary at your nat. Sorry for the confusion


[image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading]

What does that mean to you right now? Probably not a lot. It doesn't list what units I'm building or anything. That aren't a lot of Zerg guides out there and the excuse you often hear for that is that Zerg is a very fluid race that is difficult to pin down. It relies on sense, reaction, etc. Well, don't fear, because this one isn't like that. Hydra ZvZ is one of the most straight forward builds I have every tried, and I'm gonna teach you the magic right now.

11pool is safe. It's the best way to start this build. I've seen Satanik open a lot of ways, from 9hatch to 9pool, but if you're gonna be laddering this is the best one to use. Going 9pool or 9hatch is for series play against players who know you're a hydra zvz user. It keeps you fresh and from getting blind countered. We don't need that for ladder and this is an introduction, so don't worry your pretty little head about it.

12 hatch at expo is very important. Don't 12 hatch in main and 15 hatch at expo. The timing is such that this hatchery starts spreading creep in time for aggressive zergling rushes, and you are planting a creep colony immediately as it finishes. More on that in a minute.

After 12 expo, don't make drones till 15. Make exactly 8 lings. Don't get clever and skimp to 6 lings. Don't get aggressive and make more 10+ lings. You want 8 lings (that's 4 pairs from 4 eggs, in case I'm not clear), and then drones. You can use these lings to move out of your base a tiny bit, but don't actually attack with them. You desperately need these lings at home as they are what's going to prevent ling runbys and allow you to drone really hard. If you waste them now you will have to rebuild them, which means less drones which means your build will be weak and your timing slow. You are not winning with these lings. Nothing you see progamers do with lings will be of any use, so get it out of your head.

15 hatch is not THAT important whether you put it in main or at your natural, but I like to build it at my natural to make a simcity for my sunkens so that it's more difficult for Zerglings to surround and I have a smaller choke to block with my lings. On some naturals it doesn't work as well since you can't always build sunkens in a nice little nook, so you can otherwise put it in your main beside your first hatchery in a way that makes mining better.

16 and 18 sunken are important. Don't skip them ever. 16 sunk should be planted exactly when your hatchery finishes... have the drone waiting there. From the left and right of the hatchery, there is immediately enough creep to place it. top and bottom need a second to spread, I believe. You can overlord after your 18 sunk since it will bring your drone count down to 17, so do that...

24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.

Some Notes You'll notice we're not getting our gas or starting upgrades or teching hydras at all. Your focus of the early game is the survive with an expo and be in a position where you can power drones hard. If you see your opponent getting a lot of lings, like 3 hatch lings with speed or something, don't be afraid to add a lot more sunkens. Don't bother adding a lot more lings and beating him 3 hatch vs 3 hatch lings... You're learning hydra zvz after all When his attack inevitably comes, if you have 5-6 sunkens and lings blocking a runby, you should be able to hold. Pull drones to your ramp and make sure you don't let him run thru... Obviously your 8 lings will not hold forever, but drones glitching him out will really mess him up and he will be in a losing position after his attack. Make enough lings to clog your ramp again and continue as normal after his attack.

The other thing you have to make sure of when placing your spores, hatches, and spawning pool, is that you're thinking about where you're gonna put your spores so that you can cover everything. You will end up with 4 per base, you want them to at least kinda cover each other, and you definitely need them covering your tech buildings. Later you will be adding another hatchery or two, as well as a hydra den and evo, so keep in mind how much creep you need at a place to build a spore and don't manner yourself.

[image loading] [image loading]

30ish chamber is the usual time when you need to think about getting an evo chamer to counter his muta. Don't worry about getting it as soon as his spire has started. You can basically get it when his spire is 2/3rds done and be super safe, because you can build creep colonies at the same time and morph them to spores after the evo chamber finishes. Build the evo chamber where it can help reduce surface area of a creep colony and sim city. This timing can vary a bit, so don't stick to 30 at all costs. get it earlier if his spire is fast, later if his spire is late.

[14] or so creep colonies. 14 of them sounds like a lot, but it's really not. You'll notice in the bo txts I posted above that the all happen around the same supply. Satanik constantly replenishes drones while he is getting spores and you should too. It's not necessary that you always build them at the same supply, but make sure you're replacing the drones you're using. You are still in your power droning phases. Get 2-3 spore colonies for each base initially as a matter of urgency vs the first 3-6 mute he will have, and then add them till you have 4 per base that very comprehensively cover your stuff. If your mineral line is exposed and there's no creep behind it, don't worry about building a creepy colony in the centre of it to really discourage muta harass. Better to be there, than only just in range of the drone allowing muta to dart in and take half the hits with good micro. The other 6 colonies are either gonna be a few more sunkens to protect against a growing number of lings your opponent will have, or a 5th spore somewhere to protect an area that is weak. Your opponent will be able to kill a spore if he really wants to, so you should replace it as it is taking damage if he does so. It's totally ok to get this many spores since you are basically making all drones otherwise.

[image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [image loading] [lair] [image loading]

35 extractors. Both expos. Late, huh? Good drone saturation is key to satanik's play. When you get enough gas, start hydralisk attack.

40 or so supply, hydralisk den. Stop making drones here. Get hydra range first, then hydra speed. get lair and overlord speed. constantly make hydralisks and add another hatchery in a place that is protected by spore colonies (or a good zerg can pick it off and delay you severely). Don't bother getting ling speed. Start attack up two when attack up 1 finishes, which may be during your big attack.

80ish supply, you should have around 4-5 control groups of hydra, grouped with a few overlords. You need overlord speed because it would really suck if lurkers stopped your big push and players will do that sometimes. Ideally, you get a dumb player who is still building muta and ling and doesn't realise that a hydra ball which is big enough just melts muta. This is when you attack, rally all your hatches to support the attack, and basically concludes the introduction.

some notes If he counter attacks with muta mobility, keep your rallied hatches to your base, continue your attack, and build a lot of spores. You should be able to destroy him pretty easy. He will likely have expanded to take advantage of your turtling, but that's usually not that important cause he won't have powered as much as you.

[image loading]

Hydra ZvZ is a great build that not a lot of people know how to deal with. It's also not a hard build to use. Satanik is amazingly good, but he is a very strategic player. He uses this build at an extremely high level, and knows how to adapt it in ways that could not possibly be covered by this guide. You will encounter great success vs mutaling players, but you will face some questions when playing against people who adapt to the strategy. I have seen players grab an extra base and go hydra themselves with equal or greater upgrades. It seems to be a pretty strong response, but because you get such a large army, they have a very specific and hard to predict (if they haven't read this guide or seen the build before) engagement. How long do they power drones? When is it time to get hydra? They face a difficult timing. On a map like Circuit Breaker they have good bridges to defend at and hurt your timing, so make sure you take the wide route and reinforce well.

In replay chats I've read that satanik gets defilers. I would guess this in response to a player who doesn't pure mutaling. It might be the route to go in games that are against clever zergs, but again this won't be covered in the scope of this guide.

In some replays Satanik will open muta and then switch to hydra and get devourers. This seems to be a very good response to player who tech to guardians. Satanik knows hydra zvz really well, and doesn't seem to be simply countered by a correct unit choice. Is hydra zvz the strongest choice? I don't know. But if players are not prepared for it, and you have a vast knowledge of its contingencies, you will win very safely and eliminate coinflipping.

[image loading]

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Satanik ZvZ Replays
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LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8087 Posts
May 07 2012 06:34 GMT
#2
best strategy guide ever!

i always felt so ashamed losing to hydras in zvz lol
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Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
May 07 2012 06:35 GMT
#3
I bet if any pro was to try and find the easiest way to beat this, it would be (Z)he who loves to use static defense in all matchups

I'm not a big fan of Hydra ZvZ because it leaves your opponent with so much freedom to do whatever. He is almost guaranteed to have a third base and possibly a fourth base, and probably with gas too. This build works great at the lower levels, but i'm not sure how well it fairs when people know how to scout and respond.
☺
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 06:43:20
May 07 2012 06:42 GMT
#4
Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.

My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
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sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 15:56:34
May 07 2012 06:44 GMT
#5
Very nicely put together guide. Loved the detail in the format.

EDITED: because I'm a dick
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Trozz
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Canada3454 Posts
May 07 2012 06:47 GMT
#6
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51202
My foe had lurkers.
Researching drop was so key.
Just watch this and see.

http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=51203
This game blows my mind.
We both go 3 hatch hydra.
Drop seemed too risky.
A build is not a guess, an estimation or a hunch, a feeling, or a foolish intuition. A build is a dependable, unwavering, unarguably accurate, portrayer of your ambition.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 06:48:51
May 07 2012 06:48 GMT
#7
I guess I have to expect these kinds of responses from newbies. It would be nice if you watch Satanik's replays before judging though. He will make you a believer. His style is very unorthodox in all matchups, and very successful vs even good players ;p It is not just really bad players who lose to this when well executed.
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sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 15:55:40
May 07 2012 06:54 GMT
#8
EDIT: post unnecessary
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Release
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4397 Posts
May 07 2012 06:58 GMT
#9
Watched 3 of the replays and i have to say:
Satanik is simply the better player than his opponents. They didn't respond very well, floated tons of resources, and the guy that made lurkers...

The thing with ZvZ is that by making static defense, you are literally begging your opponent to expand and drone whore. His opponents simply didn't do this. I'll watch the rest of the replays before judging any further.
☺
gutshot
Profile Joined February 2011
United States429 Posts
May 07 2012 06:58 GMT
#10
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote:
Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.

My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.

actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones.
recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 07:04:22
May 07 2012 06:59 GMT
#11
I'm referring to u, mr. stuck at C-.

I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.

Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.

"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 16:14:14
May 07 2012 07:13 GMT
#12
On May 07 2012 15:59 Chef wrote:
I'm referring to u, mr. stuck at C-.

I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.

Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.

"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?


Ok your tone seriously needs work and you're just looking more and more like a troll with the way you're treating the posters here. None of us have been the slightest bit rude to you, but we're offering our input from having been in this scene for a while.

First you start off by referencing a metaphor I used in a completely different thread. Then you go farther by trying to call my standpoint "arrogant". Its in no way arrogant. I simply know about the matchup and I'm offering my input since my mentors are literally licensed BW progamers. Some are even signed to teams. I even said I appreciated and liked your write-up.

You act like none of us have ever heard of Satanik or know who he is or what he did. The only arrogance being shown here is your attitude towards those of us who have a little criticism to the replays shown or the style being a bit dated. 1200++ is nowhere near progamer by the way. Its not dumb to point out that the scope of a strategy like this could potentially be limited.

Muta/ling is preferred, but not completely invincible, and CERTAINLY not the only possible strategy. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You're simply trying to pick fights in each response you've made so far. That being said, I'm actually going to try this since I've never had a real build order for hydra zvz.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 10:47:21
May 07 2012 10:46 GMT
#13
I'm just curious: if you have 11pool 12hatch 15 hatch, disregarding the hydra play afterwards, wouldn't you be weak against early ling and/or 2hatch quick tech play? Objectively, this seems to resemble the 3hatch hive play great tried to do in the MSL, but simply with less lings and more sunkens (probably to save drones/larvae). The 2 sunks are great against mass ling attacks, but doing so essentially means you're not going to be aggressive because the opponent should be able to match ling count (and the third hatch doesn't come in effect for quite a while, at least not in the 2hatch muta timing)...

Then let's say you match the spire 400/500 hp timing and make evo/spores in time. 1/2 spores at each base at this stage is pretty bad even with 3 hatches...and mutas can still snipe sunks/3rd hatch and go for the mass ling kill...and if you were paranoid and put another spore near the 3rd hatch/sunks, what's the difference between this stage of the game and another ZvZ where one person is severely behind in tech and tries to spore while the other person just snipes, upgrades +1 cara, drones, and gets ready to engage with 1/2 groups of mutas on 3 hatches-ish?
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
Shock710
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia6097 Posts
May 07 2012 11:43 GMT
#14
I remember a zvz game with one guy going hydras(i didnt know while playing) and i was just doing the normal stuff (btw i'm not very good) but i basically thought he was going hive tech, and so i took a third and pumped drones wanting to go hive, then died to mass hydras....T_T
So i was wondering how does this hydra play fare against someone going into hive tech (proper good players doing it)
and do u have any replays of those games would be awesome to watch (unless they just straight die to the rally of hydras)
dAPhREAk gives Shock a * | [23:55] <Shock710> that was out of context -_- [16:26] <@motbob> Good question, Shock!
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17726 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 13:09:58
May 07 2012 13:05 GMT
#15
On May 07 2012 16:13 sCCrooked wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2012 15:59 Chef wrote:
I'm referring to u, mr. stuck at C-.

I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.

Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.

"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?


Ok your tone seriously needs work and you're just looking more and more like a troll with the way you're treating the posters here. None of us have been the slightest bit rude to you, but we're offering our input from having been in this scene for a while.

First you start off by referencing a metaphor I used in a completely different thread. Then you go farther by trying to call my standpoint "arrogant". Its in no way arrogant. I simply know about the matchup and I'm offering my input since my mentors are literally licensed BW progamers. Some are even signed to teams. I even said I appreciated and liked your write-up.

You act like none of us have ever heard of Satanik or know who he is or what he did. The only arrogance being shown here is your attitude towards those of us who have a little criticism to the replays shown or the style being a bit dated. 1200++ is nowhere near progamer by the way. Its not dumb to point out that the scope of a strategy like this is limited.

Muta/ling is preferred, but not completely invincible. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You're simply trying to pick fights in each response you've made so far. That being said, I'm actually going to try this since I've never had a real build order for hydra zvz.

Its understandable that you feel he's being hostile to you but you got to also understand his annoyance to your first post. All the criticism you say is something he already knows. He knows hydra zvz isn't exactly optimal but it can work in certain situations so he's trying to give with the guide a starting point to experiment with. The whole point of the guide is for people to start thinking for themselves instead of always relying on the opinions of others like your mentors. Isn't it boring always taking what your mentors say as the ultimate truth? Why not try to figure things out yourself and play around with stuff such as intentionally doing things "wrong" or different just to learn and have fun. I think the difference between hydra zvz and something else which has no chance at winning at all is that hydra zvz can be viable.
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-08 00:08:05
May 07 2012 13:46 GMT
#16
Fantastic guide. Thanks very much for sharing.
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
Bakuryu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany1065 Posts
May 07 2012 15:16 GMT
#17
nice guide, nice build, would like to see more people playing it.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 07 2012 15:34 GMT
#18
Well, you know if you say something dumb like 'this only works at low levels' as if I just wrote the guide on the stove again, then I have to defend that for users who will read it and think 'oh I shouldn't do this strat because it only beats uber noobies' which is incorrect. I don't know what 'low level' means to you, but if it means top foreigners then you are just asking too much, because most people will never have the time to even get to that level. I assumed you were implying you were above it when you said it wouldn't work at low levels, which you certainly aren't. You are quite a long way from being better than hydra zvz.

So sorry but you are just wrong. It's hip to make fun of foreigners, but the top foreigners even today are not that bad, and they were even better a few years ago when Satanik was active. It takes years of practice and study to get to that level, something most people won't have time for, so calling it low level is very strange. Top korean amateurs might be much better, but that doesn't make them horrible. Arbitrary statements like 'this won't work above 1200 fish' are just meaningless and unhelpful. If you know Satanik, he is a lot about surprising his opponent with strategy and metagame.

We can theorycraft a bit if you want, we can talk about what actually happens when a zerg counters this with more expansions, but it is annoying to just describe a hypothetical better player who would have the magic answers that you don't. I can't argue against that hypothetical player, he will always be too good and not present. I can say that when you get more bases, what you're getting is more gas. Competing with drone saturation will be more difficult, the hydra ling player does have overlords over your main and nat to check if you are powering drones and or keeping proper map control. I don't have to build 8 spore colonies if you're not making muta. You sacrifice economy to tech that fast to muta. If you aren't making lings and you're just making drones, I don't have to go hydra. I can get a gas and speedling all in. If you're used to me going hydra, I don't have to go hydra. I can do the econ heavy build, then get muta first instead of hydra and attack one of your expansions you took to take advantage of my turtling, then get hydra after. Action, reaction. If I have experience, even if it's suboptimal it can win games, which is the nature of most strategic plays. Can you counter slowdrop lurkers when you know they're coming and have dealt with them a lot? Sure. Will it take games from you when you only see it once in awhile? Definitely. My scouting can be limited by the fast muta, but the fast muta tell me a lot. There are variations to the build, is what I'm saying, and this is the introduction for people who have never even tried hydra zvz without getting muta microed to death by D+ players.

Low level is inaccurate. It suggests it's a one-trick pony. I've overreacted and made this thread a pile of shit, but maybe if someone reads my response they might still be willing to try it, instead of chalking it up as a dumb strat that you don't do if you want to get better.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
sCCrooked
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-07 16:11:21
May 07 2012 15:50 GMT
#19
On May 07 2012 22:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
Its understandable that you feel he's being hostile to you but you got to also understand his annoyance to your first post. All the criticism you say is something he already knows. He knows hydra zvz isn't exactly optimal but it can work in certain situations so he's trying to give with the guide a starting point to experiment with. The whole point of the guide is for people to start thinking for themselves instead of always relying on the opinions of others like your mentors. Isn't it boring always taking what your mentors say as the ultimate truth? Why not try to figure things out yourself and play around with stuff such as intentionally doing things "wrong" or different just to learn and have fun. I think the difference between hydra zvz and something else which has no chance at winning at all is that hydra zvz can be viable.


My people I have asked for advice face-to-face in this game include most of the old EG squad for BW, the coaches for KT/Hwaseung/SKT1, as well as FlaSh, Jaedong, KaL, lead players from clans like Minty/GsP/NsP/[neox] and more. I'm sure at that level, they're rather biased in their playstyles and probably buy into the notion that there is a "proper" way to play. In no way and at no point did say such play was a stupid idea or anything that would warrant such a tantrum of a response. A mature intelligent poster sees criticism in the same light as he/she sees compliments. Most prefer criticism becuase its an opportunity to strengthen their points with proof. Every post so far has just flat-out insulted the critic or questioned if we saw the replays or even know who satanik is.

I even stated at the bottom that I wanted to try this style out since I've never had an actual build order when messing around with hydra zvz. There's nothing "wrong" with this style and I never stated or hinted at such, yet you two seem to think so. However, when we ask for better replays or proof, we're insulted and expected to be quiet. How can we believe this sort of style is ok if when we ask or criticize when its viable, we just get insulted?

I still appreciate the guide regardless of treatment and I'll erase the others if you think it really deters intelligent players from trying it out or taking it seriously.

EDIT: just the fact that a top player like baku says its a good build would make intelligent posters skip over my ignorant statements considering one of the current top zergs thinks its a serious style to contend with and I, admittedly, am just another C n00b. I do apologize if any serious player was deterred by my statements. Such was not my intent.

EDIT2: is there any way we could get 2 players like baku or michael or bizzy, any of the top ASL-contending zergs really to play a quick Bo5 or 7 to try this style out vs another top muta-ling user? That would squash many or all doubts as to this strategy's viability 'till A rank at least. I'd even cast and record the VOD to be added to the op if we could get a showmatch like this going. Not to mention I'm sure we'd all love to see a showmatch between such top players anyways.
Enlightened in an age of anti-intellectualism and quotidian repetitiveness of asinine assumptive thinking. Best lycan guide evar --> "Fixing solo queue all pick one game at a time." ~KwarK-
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
May 07 2012 16:19 GMT
#20
I think things have gotten unnecessarily heated. A lot of that was my frustration from having spent a long time and also an hour looking for a place to host my images since imgur wasn't working. I don't have anything personally against you, sccrooked and definitely could have responded more calmly.

Currently I'm working thru lmn files to find Satanik replays. Most googled replay packs were dead, but lmrb lives on! I will upload the ZvZs indiscriminately if I watch a few and they look consistently hydra zvz. They were all be in old versions of starcraft tho, so bwchart or lmrb will be necessary to determine what version they should be viewed in.
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