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If it means anything to people, Day[9] used hydras successfully at A- a few years ago.
Hydras really are an overlooked option. Early game the timing and lack of scouting make it difficult to find your footing, but hydra armies are incredibly difficult to face once they build up any kind of significant force, not to mention that casters affect mutas much worse than they do hydras.
I still remember my first ladder experience against hydras back on WGT... roughly a decade ago now. I just couldn't understand how my gazillion speedlings could just MELT against several control groups of hydras. Midgame a ling/muta user really has to focus on harassment and in order to face a hydra army head-on, outstanding flanking with ling and muta in combination is absolutely critical.
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On May 09 2012 15:14 Mortality wrote:
If it means anything to people, Day[9] used hydras successfully at A- a few years ago.
Hydras really are an overlooked option. Early game the timing and lack of scouting make it difficult to find your footing, but hydra armies are incredibly difficult to face once they build up any kind of significant force, not to mention that casters affect mutas much worse than they do hydras.
I still remember my first ladder experience against hydras back on WGT... roughly a decade ago now. I just couldn't understand how my gazillion speedlings could just MELT against several control groups of hydras. Midgame a ling/muta user really has to focus on harassment and in order to face a hydra army head-on, outstanding flanking with ling and muta in combination is absolutely critical.
typically, an all zergling against hydralisk, you should end up with about 3-4 zerglings for every hydra.
If your 252-336 zerglings are dying to his 84 hydralisks, then something is seriously wrong.
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On May 09 2012 00:12 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:49 dRaW wrote:On May 07 2012 15:58 gutshot wrote:On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote:Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus. My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B  That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level. actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it. I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well. edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
I recall I was inactive lots of that season, I've beaten plenty of better zergs than him btw so I don't really care about it 
also, we were talking about the validity of the build in zvz, not that he can win a zvp
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Don't laugh, he's beaten + Show Spoiler + Even though he has a point, that pretty much doesn't mean anything. But hey, you'll notice the best player who have posted in this thread seem to like your build so, overall nice guide =)
I have in fact once won a game against hydra zvz, it was really close and fun =)
Won't use it cause I make enough hydras in ZvP and I love muta/ling micro, but I sure hope more people try it.
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I finally got a chance to sit down and read this guide but I realized how far behind my original post was so I think I'll post here so it is seen. I'm gonna edit any comments or questions in here.
1) I fully agree with the intro. As a part-time Chess player and part-time Star Craft player I always study if I can. I've been searching for guides though, not replays unless linked from the guide itself. Hmm... might be a good idea. ^^
2) Question:
24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.
Where do I put this? In my main in case they successfully run-by me? In my nat? Over near where I expect to make a Spore Colony? You really weren't clear here unlike you were just beforehand.
3) Question: When I pull drones to defend against an attack, exactly how many? 2? 3? 4?
4) Question: How does this fair against Kau's Proxy Hatch? How do you react?
5)@14 or so creep colonies you should probably edit that Lair pic :p
6) Thanks for this! I will totally try this out after looking at a good 2-4 replays and then look at more after I(most likely) lose :p.
7)@your responses on this first page you actually make me more wanting to try out the build because of just how fiercely your defended it and with such determination. Along with the 2nd/3rd response where you said things like if the opponent is used to your hydras you go mutas, and if they are droning a lot you go mass speedling. Chef, never change
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Well, the guide is more a basis for how to learn a build when you have a few replays. I get the feeling post of the replys tho have not read the OP and are just reacting to the BO / unit composition.
I could make a guide on how to TvZ nuke rush off one base using HiyA's replays and get about the same responses. Ya, it might not be something you want to do to maximize results vs people who practice 10 hours a day, but it sure looks cool when you do it vs other amateurs and makes the game more interesting. It doesn't mean it's a noob strategy or that it hasn't been well thought out.. lord knows going weird unit compositions and strategies often have a tonne of vulnerabilities you need to account for and develop the strategy on. I think it's silly to say the obvious that standard is more practical / stable... because obv it is, that's why it's standard. I would love a guide on good standard play, but most foreigners don't know how to play it and I'm not terribly interested in putting the effort into studying it from scratch myself.
@FFA, that third sunken goes at your nat. Use lings and drones to prevent a runby if it becomes an issue. If they get one or two lings thru due to some scrappy early play, hope they're weakened enough and you have good drone micro to finish them like in a normal zvz. There isn't really any point in keeping one in your main tbh.
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Thanks for the fast reply! I had a feeling there wouldn't be a point to it but I felt like throwing it out there since although I main Protoss I have always wanted to try ZvZ with Hydras ever since I tried 5 ZvZs all ending in dieing to either the early lings or the early mutas. Basically, I am a noob to ZvZ ^.^
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yes It is a viable build at the end, I just wanted to point out that mutas are pretty good. good write up, hope to see some hydras from future tournaments.
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On May 10 2012 15:39 gutshot wrote:
yes It is a viable build at the end, I just wanted to point out that mutas are pretty good. good write up, hope to see some hydras from future tournaments.
This now makes 3 A-/A rank Zergs saying this is good. Michael, you think you could show us a bit of this on fish the next time you stream? I'd love to see an FPVOD of a fish C pulling this off. Would be unreal as reference material for the OP.
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While i agree that this is totally possible and doable, Its a way of playing for "fun". On competitive level, this "should" not work.
What im trying to say is that it works if you enemy mess up or you re far better.
Satanik has a great knowledge of this game. Most of the other players dont.
Hydra builds are simply a lot harder to pull off, becouse you have to take judgement calls that are more complicated, like when to atack, with how much, on what location. Mutas are far easier in this matter.
Finally, due to the fact that this build is rearly used, it has the potential to catch you enemy off guard, and beat him. however, dont count on it to work vsn expirienced player.
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Perhaps you could play vs Michael or Baku then. One of you using this build, the other using a more "standard" muta/ling build. It would be wonderful example material for us to draw off of to determine how viable this still is at the modern B/B+/A-/A level.
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I've only seen Bakuryu play twice, and both of them he went hydra zvz lol. ISL or something when I wanted to see what the quality of production was for it.
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I think this is a very cool strategy, I love hydra's. They're one of my favourite units because they're just so damn awesome.
I watched the first replay of satanic zvz's. I'm sure from what you described etc that a lot of adaptations can be used, but the 'salandar' guy just did not adapt to what he saw. He sees a zerg put up 14 colonys (spores + sunken) and even has a ling contain on the guy for 10 minutes. He takes his natural really late and takes a third after 10 minutes. That seems like really weak decision making.
I'm going to try this strategy though, because I simply love hydra's.
third game; the orange zerg had the correct response. But wrong unit composition; he morphes guardians after he spots a lot of devourers? And a good flank with links could do wonders. But as you've said, If I'd encounter this strategy I'd probably do the same as orange but just go mass hydras and muta's (and morph into devourers if needed).
I thought about ultra's, but I speculate they're weak vs mass hydras. Defiler tech could be useful but then you'd need a lot of lings and if he has lurkers out, the lings still get raped under the swarm and you'll have cast swarm over his hydra's vs your muta's. Plague might be usefull. Guardians are too slow and not good in open battles.
But I think the orange zerg made the correct decision making (besides unit composition). And maybe get those first few muta's out faster to kill some ovies + scout (so he could have spot the spire tech quicker) and make him think you're massing muta's.
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really? I have never seen Bakuryu going for hydras
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On May 11 2012 02:08 gutshot wrote:
really? I have never seen Bakuryu going for hydras
It might have been someone else. I'm not really familiar with current top foreigners.
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I lost to Hydras once in ZvZ. I drowned in shame.
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On May 10 2012 05:03 3FFA wrote:I finally got a chance to sit down and read this guide but I realized how far behind my original post was so I think I'll post here so it is seen. I'm gonna edit any comments or questions in here.
1) I fully agree with the intro. As a part-time Chess player and part-time Star Craft player I always study if I can. I've been searching for guides though, not replays unless linked from the guide itself. Hmm... might be a good idea. ^^
2) Question:
24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.
Where do I put this? In my main in case they successfully run-by me? In my nat? Over near where I expect to make a Spore Colony? You really weren't clear here unlike you were just beforehand. 3) Question: When I pull drones to defend against an attack, exactly how many? 2? 3? 4? 4) Question: How does this fair against Kau's Proxy Hatch? How do you react? 5)@14 or so creep colonies you should probably edit that Lair pic :p 6) Thanks for this! I will totally try this out after looking at a good 2-4 replays and then look at more after I(most likely) lose :p. 7)@your responses on this first page you actually make me more wanting to try out the build because of just how fiercely your defended it and with such determination. Along with the 2nd/3rd response where you said things like if the opponent is used to your hydras you go mutas, and if they are droning a lot you go mass speedling. Chef, never change
Can you respond to the edits of my previous post? Thanks Chef!
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um... I would just pull all the drones at the nat probably. It would be completely based on whether it looked like he had enough lings to break through. It's basically the same reaction you'd have vs marines and medics trying to run up your ramp past sunkens, or zealots. You are only gonna need them there for a few seconds, and it's completely critical they don't get through. You just pull them all and if you keep them at your nat and they die to your sunkens you're so far ahead it doesn't matter you lost a little mining time.
Kau's proxy hatch... I would probably just build lings off 3 hatch. Maybe get speed, forget about hydra for a bit because the proxy hatch needs to die, and it's really hard for him to defend. You have to actually see the proxy hatch of course, but it is very easy to deal with if you know it's there. Could even get a sunk in your main vs that if you wanted to be extra safe.
there wasn't an icon for a lair, so I just wrote it
But yeah.. normal zvz sense applies in the early game. If he is doing something weird or all-inish, you should react to it properly. The build just puts you in a position to react to most stuff.
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EPT
