Less than a week ago I finally got around to forwarding my ports after over ten years of lat tricking to create games. It was due to my inability to host that I came to consider myself a series player, since to play a lot of games I had to play the same person—usually a friendly rival or something. It's a very different kind of StarCraft, and one that I still consider StarCraft in its purest form, but that isn't to say there isn't a value to the kind of StarCraft played vs new opponents every game on the ladder.
I have wondered for a long time how well I would actually do on ladder, especially given how different a game it is. I became highly motivated to give it my best shot and develop skills that have gone untested by the nature of series play. This meant analysing the nature of ladder to determine the skills most critical to its own nature. Those are:
I A comprehensive understanding of one's strategy. (because at a minimum, everyone else on the ladder will be getting their initial timings with extreme efficiency)
II A high amount of stability vs various strategies. (because there is not a lot of metagame and you don't want to be guessing)
III A devotion to a single strategy. (because you are playing against strangers you probably won't rematch, so you only need to be good at one to maximize success)
In my mind these are the bare minimum. It is difficult to just screw around and do whatever on the ladder because your opponent's are practicing a single strategy which is not easily predicted. Series play punishes players who practice a single strategy and the games become more freestyle vs low level players, but on iCCup even D+ players have at least their first timings down to some extent. Another thing one could do is play only one match up, but I think that is lame and bad manner considering how few people actually make pubbies for people to join. If you've ever been on the side of the fence where you can't make, you know how hard it is to find a game, so I have at least that much compassion.
With this in mind I had to choose three strategies, one for each matchup. I threw standard play out the window for two reasons: It is difficult to master, and even more difficult to master vs players who are used to it and are using builds designed to work against it. I don't need to give my opponents any unnecessary advantages, so I chose some styles I liked and copied those I could have and have before created my own, but whatever I knew is long lost now and I was excited to ladder, not for the frustration of starting from scratch. The strategy I chose for ZvT was MaeJang's proxy hatch / lurker-drop based play, for ZvP Satanik's 4hat 2base before gas, and for ZvZ Satanik's hydra-build of course. This is why:
Unmotivated, zero-multitask and muta micro from 1999 (that means if there's any stacking it's done my clicking on a friendly or neutral unit, no overlord switching). You know what that sounds like to me? Easy and fun. MaeJang's replay pack description was not all-together different. A bm player with awesome style but not the highest rank. Old school style suits me since I played a lot in the days when 1base Protoss was normal, and it appealed to me to use old school responses to Protoss and Terran who expo aggressively and beyond their ability.
You might be noticing that I haven't said shit about Hydra ZvZ specifically yet, and already you've been reading for nearly 5 minutes. The reason is because I want to describe my method of learning perfectly so that you can emulate it when choosing from styles YOU like besides Hydra ZvZ, and because I want to show you what humble beginnings you can start from when learning this game if you are frustrated and losing at the low ranks. Teach a man to fish, so to speak. Well this was my method:
I i Given limited replays to study from (Satanik only uploaded a few), I used the BWAPI plugin for Chaos Launcher to generate the build order files. They produced the following: + Show Spoiler [bos] +
ii I put the three text files side by side and looked for similarities and wrote them down: + Show Spoiler [a note] +
II Given a lot of replay files (as in the case of MaeJang's ZvT) I used Lord Martin Replay Browser to keep track of what I had already watched and organize them a little, and simply went through each one with my fingers on the u (speed up) and d (speed down) keys to absorb how he dealt with every situation. First I took note of his build order and what he seemed to get every game, and when I became intimately familiar with it, I looked to other parts of his play with those assumed. The above method would also be very useful, but since I was winning games just off what I had absorbed watching 20 or so of his ZvTs, I never got around to it (initially I had watched them for fun, since I didn't even have plans to deal with my router yet).
I hope you're noticing something. I studied before I played. There's a misconception with a lot of players that you can just mass game and eventually get good no matter what. If you are not thinking and don't know what you're doing and aren't learning, you will just repeat the same strategic mistakes with maybe a little higher apm and better macro. This is basically what I'd call brute forcing your way to C-. You can do it with very little strategy, but you will be a boring player and react badly to unusual play. You will also sound stupid when you talk about the game, because your rank will not be a reflection of your understanding, only your mechanics. Chess and Go players study their game a lot in between games, and it's very necessary to advancing as a StarCraft player. Believe me though, it is rewarding and its own kind of fun. It's also what makes Brood War a game of intelligence and not the keyboard bashing that some outsiders see it as.
What I experienced was incredible success, and I hope you will too. This guide will only cover the basics, because that is all I really know. For advanced tactics and clever responses, you will have to play it by ear and learn from experience, although I will try to offer a few suggestions (I haven't had enough experience to speak confidently on the stranger situations).
Here's my piece of paper transcribed to digital text. I kept the paper beside my computer so I could look at it if I was hesitant about a detail. Ideally you eventually memorise it just by repetition ;p
11 pool 12 expo 15 hatch 16-18 colonies (2) 24 colony 30ish chamber [14] or so colonies, keep 30 drones 35 [2] extractors 40 or so den 80ish hydras attack, rally
edit: I would like to note that in retrospect, I think BWAPI was counting failed actions or maybe morph spore as a build colony action. I never build 14 colonies in my own games and I don't think satanik did either... Generally it is moe like 4 per base for spores, and then an extra sunk or two if necessary at your nat. Sorry for the confusion
What does that mean to you right now? Probably not a lot. It doesn't list what units I'm building or anything. That aren't a lot of Zerg guides out there and the excuse you often hear for that is that Zerg is a very fluid race that is difficult to pin down. It relies on sense, reaction, etc. Well, don't fear, because this one isn't like that. Hydra ZvZ is one of the most straight forward builds I have every tried, and I'm gonna teach you the magic right now.
11pool is safe. It's the best way to start this build. I've seen Satanik open a lot of ways, from 9hatch to 9pool, but if you're gonna be laddering this is the best one to use. Going 9pool or 9hatch is for series play against players who know you're a hydra zvz user. It keeps you fresh and from getting blind countered. We don't need that for ladder and this is an introduction, so don't worry your pretty little head about it.
12 hatch at expo is very important. Don't 12 hatch in main and 15 hatch at expo. The timing is such that this hatchery starts spreading creep in time for aggressive zergling rushes, and you are planting a creep colony immediately as it finishes. More on that in a minute.
After 12 expo, don't make drones till 15. Make exactly 8 lings. Don't get clever and skimp to 6 lings. Don't get aggressive and make more 10+ lings. You want 8 lings (that's 4 pairs from 4 eggs, in case I'm not clear), and then drones. You can use these lings to move out of your base a tiny bit, but don't actually attack with them. You desperately need these lings at home as they are what's going to prevent ling runbys and allow you to drone really hard. If you waste them now you will have to rebuild them, which means less drones which means your build will be weak and your timing slow. You are not winning with these lings. Nothing you see progamers do with lings will be of any use, so get it out of your head.
15 hatch is not THAT important whether you put it in main or at your natural, but I like to build it at my natural to make a simcity for my sunkens so that it's more difficult for Zerglings to surround and I have a smaller choke to block with my lings. On some naturals it doesn't work as well since you can't always build sunkens in a nice little nook, so you can otherwise put it in your main beside your first hatchery in a way that makes mining better.
16 and 18 sunken are important. Don't skip them ever. 16 sunk should be planted exactly when your hatchery finishes... have the drone waiting there. From the left and right of the hatchery, there is immediately enough creep to place it. top and bottom need a second to spread, I believe. You can overlord after your 18 sunk since it will bring your drone count down to 17, so do that...
24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.
Some Notes You'll notice we're not getting our gas or starting upgrades or teching hydras at all. Your focus of the early game is the survive with an expo and be in a position where you can power drones hard. If you see your opponent getting a lot of lings, like 3 hatch lings with speed or something, don't be afraid to add a lot more sunkens. Don't bother adding a lot more lings and beating him 3 hatch vs 3 hatch lings... You're learning hydra zvz after all When his attack inevitably comes, if you have 5-6 sunkens and lings blocking a runby, you should be able to hold. Pull drones to your ramp and make sure you don't let him run thru... Obviously your 8 lings will not hold forever, but drones glitching him out will really mess him up and he will be in a losing position after his attack. Make enough lings to clog your ramp again and continue as normal after his attack.
The other thing you have to make sure of when placing your spores, hatches, and spawning pool, is that you're thinking about where you're gonna put your spores so that you can cover everything. You will end up with 4 per base, you want them to at least kinda cover each other, and you definitely need them covering your tech buildings. Later you will be adding another hatchery or two, as well as a hydra den and evo, so keep in mind how much creep you need at a place to build a spore and don't manner yourself.
30ish chamber is the usual time when you need to think about getting an evo chamer to counter his muta. Don't worry about getting it as soon as his spire has started. You can basically get it when his spire is 2/3rds done and be super safe, because you can build creep colonies at the same time and morph them to spores after the evo chamber finishes. Build the evo chamber where it can help reduce surface area of a creep colony and sim city. This timing can vary a bit, so don't stick to 30 at all costs. get it earlier if his spire is fast, later if his spire is late.
[14] or so creep colonies. 14 of them sounds like a lot, but it's really not. You'll notice in the bo txts I posted above that the all happen around the same supply. Satanik constantly replenishes drones while he is getting spores and you should too. It's not necessary that you always build them at the same supply, but make sure you're replacing the drones you're using. You are still in your power droning phases. Get 2-3 spore colonies for each base initially as a matter of urgency vs the first 3-6 mute he will have, and then add them till you have 4 per base that very comprehensively cover your stuff. If your mineral line is exposed and there's no creep behind it, don't worry about building a creepy colony in the centre of it to really discourage muta harass. Better to be there, than only just in range of the drone allowing muta to dart in and take half the hits with good micro. The other 6 colonies are either gonna be a few more sunkens to protect against a growing number of lings your opponent will have, or a 5th spore somewhere to protect an area that is weak. Your opponent will be able to kill a spore if he really wants to, so you should replace it as it is taking damage if he does so. It's totally ok to get this many spores since you are basically making all drones otherwise.
[lair]
35 extractors. Both expos. Late, huh? Good drone saturation is key to satanik's play. When you get enough gas, start hydralisk attack.
40 or so supply, hydralisk den. Stop making drones here. Get hydra range first, then hydra speed. get lair and overlord speed. constantly make hydralisks and add another hatchery in a place that is protected by spore colonies (or a good zerg can pick it off and delay you severely). Don't bother getting ling speed. Start attack up two when attack up 1 finishes, which may be during your big attack.
80ish supply, you should have around 4-5 control groups of hydra, grouped with a few overlords. You need overlord speed because it would really suck if lurkers stopped your big push and players will do that sometimes. Ideally, you get a dumb player who is still building muta and ling and doesn't realise that a hydra ball which is big enough just melts muta. This is when you attack, rally all your hatches to support the attack, and basically concludes the introduction.
some notes If he counter attacks with muta mobility, keep your rallied hatches to your base, continue your attack, and build a lot of spores. You should be able to destroy him pretty easy. He will likely have expanded to take advantage of your turtling, but that's usually not that important cause he won't have powered as much as you.
Hydra ZvZ is a great build that not a lot of people know how to deal with. It's also not a hard build to use. Satanik is amazingly good, but he is a very strategic player. He uses this build at an extremely high level, and knows how to adapt it in ways that could not possibly be covered by this guide. You will encounter great success vs mutaling players, but you will face some questions when playing against people who adapt to the strategy. I have seen players grab an extra base and go hydra themselves with equal or greater upgrades. It seems to be a pretty strong response, but because you get such a large army, they have a very specific and hard to predict (if they haven't read this guide or seen the build before) engagement. How long do they power drones? When is it time to get hydra? They face a difficult timing. On a map like Circuit Breaker they have good bridges to defend at and hurt your timing, so make sure you take the wide route and reinforce well.
In replay chats I've read that satanik gets defilers. I would guess this in response to a player who doesn't pure mutaling. It might be the route to go in games that are against clever zergs, but again this won't be covered in the scope of this guide.
In some replays Satanik will open muta and then switch to hydra and get devourers. This seems to be a very good response to player who tech to guardians. Satanik knows hydra zvz really well, and doesn't seem to be simply countered by a correct unit choice. Is hydra zvz the strongest choice? I don't know. But if players are not prepared for it, and you have a vast knowledge of its contingencies, you will win very safely and eliminate coinflipping.
I'm not a big fan of Hydra ZvZ because it leaves your opponent with so much freedom to do whatever. He is almost guaranteed to have a third base and possibly a fourth base, and probably with gas too. This build works great at the lower levels, but i'm not sure how well it fairs when people know how to scout and respond.
Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
I guess I have to expect these kinds of responses from newbies. It would be nice if you watch Satanik's replays before judging though. He will make you a believer. His style is very unorthodox in all matchups, and very successful vs even good players ;p It is not just really bad players who lose to this when well executed.
Watched 3 of the replays and i have to say: Satanik is simply the better player than his opponents. They didn't respond very well, floated tons of resources, and the guy that made lurkers...
The thing with ZvZ is that by making static defense, you are literally begging your opponent to expand and drone whore. His opponents simply didn't do this. I'll watch the rest of the replays before judging any further.
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote: Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.
Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.
"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?
On May 07 2012 15:59 Chef wrote: I'm referring to u, mr. stuck at C-.
I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.
Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.
"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?
Ok your tone seriously needs work and you're just looking more and more like a troll with the way you're treating the posters here. None of us have been the slightest bit rude to you, but we're offering our input from having been in this scene for a while.
First you start off by referencing a metaphor I used in a completely different thread. Then you go farther by trying to call my standpoint "arrogant". Its in no way arrogant. I simply know about the matchup and I'm offering my input since my mentors are literally licensed BW progamers. Some are even signed to teams. I even said I appreciated and liked your write-up.
You act like none of us have ever heard of Satanik or know who he is or what he did. The only arrogance being shown here is your attitude towards those of us who have a little criticism to the replays shown or the style being a bit dated. 1200++ is nowhere near progamer by the way. Its not dumb to point out that the scope of a strategy like this could potentially be limited.
Muta/ling is preferred, but not completely invincible, and CERTAINLY not the only possible strategy. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You're simply trying to pick fights in each response you've made so far. That being said, I'm actually going to try this since I've never had a real build order for hydra zvz.
I'm just curious: if you have 11pool 12hatch 15 hatch, disregarding the hydra play afterwards, wouldn't you be weak against early ling and/or 2hatch quick tech play? Objectively, this seems to resemble the 3hatch hive play great tried to do in the MSL, but simply with less lings and more sunkens (probably to save drones/larvae). The 2 sunks are great against mass ling attacks, but doing so essentially means you're not going to be aggressive because the opponent should be able to match ling count (and the third hatch doesn't come in effect for quite a while, at least not in the 2hatch muta timing)...
Then let's say you match the spire 400/500 hp timing and make evo/spores in time. 1/2 spores at each base at this stage is pretty bad even with 3 hatches...and mutas can still snipe sunks/3rd hatch and go for the mass ling kill...and if you were paranoid and put another spore near the 3rd hatch/sunks, what's the difference between this stage of the game and another ZvZ where one person is severely behind in tech and tries to spore while the other person just snipes, upgrades +1 cara, drones, and gets ready to engage with 1/2 groups of mutas on 3 hatches-ish?
I remember a zvz game with one guy going hydras(i didnt know while playing) and i was just doing the normal stuff (btw i'm not very good) but i basically thought he was going hive tech, and so i took a third and pumped drones wanting to go hive, then died to mass hydras....T_T So i was wondering how does this hydra play fare against someone going into hive tech (proper good players doing it) and do u have any replays of those games would be awesome to watch (unless they just straight die to the rally of hydras)
On May 07 2012 15:59 Chef wrote: I'm referring to u, mr. stuck at C-.
I don't know what 1200 actually compares to. Maybe you're right, if it is practically progamer there ;p I think you've just got a lot of national pride. In any case, it isn't really useful for you to just say 'lol this only works vs noobs.' It's arrogant. If B ranks are noobs to you and that makes this build invalid, ok, thanks for your contribution. Most of the people who would want a guide to anything on StarCraft are not progamers.
Satanik's did hydra ZvZ in WCG and won with it, you can look it up it's a pretty popular replay. I would consider that a pretty high level but what do I know, 1200 fish imba don't even bother to write a guide or learn anything cause progamers would beat it lawl. I was very modest in my OP about what this build is for and what the guide accomplishes, but I think it is dumb to just say something like that. Go write your gosu mutaling guide if u want.
"mutaling is bettur" lord almighty, thanks for the great post genius, did you learn that from seeing muta ling in every single pro vod ever?
Ok your tone seriously needs work and you're just looking more and more like a troll with the way you're treating the posters here. None of us have been the slightest bit rude to you, but we're offering our input from having been in this scene for a while.
First you start off by referencing a metaphor I used in a completely different thread. Then you go farther by trying to call my standpoint "arrogant". Its in no way arrogant. I simply know about the matchup and I'm offering my input since my mentors are literally licensed BW progamers. Some are even signed to teams. I even said I appreciated and liked your write-up.
You act like none of us have ever heard of Satanik or know who he is or what he did. The only arrogance being shown here is your attitude towards those of us who have a little criticism to the replays shown or the style being a bit dated. 1200++ is nowhere near progamer by the way. Its not dumb to point out that the scope of a strategy like this is limited.
Muta/ling is preferred, but not completely invincible. Nobody has said anything of the sort. You're simply trying to pick fights in each response you've made so far. That being said, I'm actually going to try this since I've never had a real build order for hydra zvz.
Its understandable that you feel he's being hostile to you but you got to also understand his annoyance to your first post. All the criticism you say is something he already knows. He knows hydra zvz isn't exactly optimal but it can work in certain situations so he's trying to give with the guide a starting point to experiment with. The whole point of the guide is for people to start thinking for themselves instead of always relying on the opinions of others like your mentors. Isn't it boring always taking what your mentors say as the ultimate truth? Why not try to figure things out yourself and play around with stuff such as intentionally doing things "wrong" or different just to learn and have fun. I think the difference between hydra zvz and something else which has no chance at winning at all is that hydra zvz can be viable.
Well, you know if you say something dumb like 'this only works at low levels' as if I just wrote the guide on the stove again, then I have to defend that for users who will read it and think 'oh I shouldn't do this strat because it only beats uber noobies' which is incorrect. I don't know what 'low level' means to you, but if it means top foreigners then you are just asking too much, because most people will never have the time to even get to that level. I assumed you were implying you were above it when you said it wouldn't work at low levels, which you certainly aren't. You are quite a long way from being better than hydra zvz.
So sorry but you are just wrong. It's hip to make fun of foreigners, but the top foreigners even today are not that bad, and they were even better a few years ago when Satanik was active. It takes years of practice and study to get to that level, something most people won't have time for, so calling it low level is very strange. Top korean amateurs might be much better, but that doesn't make them horrible. Arbitrary statements like 'this won't work above 1200 fish' are just meaningless and unhelpful. If you know Satanik, he is a lot about surprising his opponent with strategy and metagame.
We can theorycraft a bit if you want, we can talk about what actually happens when a zerg counters this with more expansions, but it is annoying to just describe a hypothetical better player who would have the magic answers that you don't. I can't argue against that hypothetical player, he will always be too good and not present. I can say that when you get more bases, what you're getting is more gas. Competing with drone saturation will be more difficult, the hydra ling player does have overlords over your main and nat to check if you are powering drones and or keeping proper map control. I don't have to build 8 spore colonies if you're not making muta. You sacrifice economy to tech that fast to muta. If you aren't making lings and you're just making drones, I don't have to go hydra. I can get a gas and speedling all in. If you're used to me going hydra, I don't have to go hydra. I can do the econ heavy build, then get muta first instead of hydra and attack one of your expansions you took to take advantage of my turtling, then get hydra after. Action, reaction. If I have experience, even if it's suboptimal it can win games, which is the nature of most strategic plays. Can you counter slowdrop lurkers when you know they're coming and have dealt with them a lot? Sure. Will it take games from you when you only see it once in awhile? Definitely. My scouting can be limited by the fast muta, but the fast muta tell me a lot. There are variations to the build, is what I'm saying, and this is the introduction for people who have never even tried hydra zvz without getting muta microed to death by D+ players.
Low level is inaccurate. It suggests it's a one-trick pony. I've overreacted and made this thread a pile of shit, but maybe if someone reads my response they might still be willing to try it, instead of chalking it up as a dumb strat that you don't do if you want to get better.
On May 07 2012 22:05 Ilikestarcraft wrote: Its understandable that you feel he's being hostile to you but you got to also understand his annoyance to your first post. All the criticism you say is something he already knows. He knows hydra zvz isn't exactly optimal but it can work in certain situations so he's trying to give with the guide a starting point to experiment with. The whole point of the guide is for people to start thinking for themselves instead of always relying on the opinions of others like your mentors. Isn't it boring always taking what your mentors say as the ultimate truth? Why not try to figure things out yourself and play around with stuff such as intentionally doing things "wrong" or different just to learn and have fun. I think the difference between hydra zvz and something else which has no chance at winning at all is that hydra zvz can be viable.
My people I have asked for advice face-to-face in this game include most of the old EG squad for BW, the coaches for KT/Hwaseung/SKT1, as well as FlaSh, Jaedong, KaL, lead players from clans like Minty/GsP/NsP/[neox] and more. I'm sure at that level, they're rather biased in their playstyles and probably buy into the notion that there is a "proper" way to play. In no way and at no point did say such play was a stupid idea or anything that would warrant such a tantrum of a response. A mature intelligent poster sees criticism in the same light as he/she sees compliments. Most prefer criticism becuase its an opportunity to strengthen their points with proof. Every post so far has just flat-out insulted the critic or questioned if we saw the replays or even know who satanik is.
I even stated at the bottom that I wanted to try this style out since I've never had an actual build order when messing around with hydra zvz. There's nothing "wrong" with this style and I never stated or hinted at such, yet you two seem to think so. However, when we ask for better replays or proof, we're insulted and expected to be quiet. How can we believe this sort of style is ok if when we ask or criticize when its viable, we just get insulted?
I still appreciate the guide regardless of treatment and I'll erase the others if you think it really deters intelligent players from trying it out or taking it seriously.
EDIT: just the fact that a top player like baku says its a good build would make intelligent posters skip over my ignorant statements considering one of the current top zergs thinks its a serious style to contend with and I, admittedly, am just another C n00b. I do apologize if any serious player was deterred by my statements. Such was not my intent.
EDIT2: is there any way we could get 2 players like baku or michael or bizzy, any of the top ASL-contending zergs really to play a quick Bo5 or 7 to try this style out vs another top muta-ling user? That would squash many or all doubts as to this strategy's viability 'till A rank at least. I'd even cast and record the VOD to be added to the op if we could get a showmatch like this going. Not to mention I'm sure we'd all love to see a showmatch between such top players anyways.
I think things have gotten unnecessarily heated. A lot of that was my frustration from having spent a long time and also an hour looking for a place to host my images since imgur wasn't working. I don't have anything personally against you, sccrooked and definitely could have responded more calmly.
Currently I'm working thru lmn files to find Satanik replays. Most googled replay packs were dead, but lmrb lives on! I will upload the ZvZs indiscriminately if I watch a few and they look consistently hydra zvz. They were all be in old versions of starcraft tho, so bwchart or lmrb will be necessary to determine what version they should be viewed in.
Well, I still don't have a working laptop in my hands yet (still posting from phone in the hospital), but my friend who is B- on iccup tried this style out last night and reported success with it. He noted 2 key points at which he had advantages in the matchup vs muta/ling. You may want to focus on these if you're trying this out for timings.
There's a point just after their initial mutas where your spore/hydra defense sitting in your base is simply impregnable due to their low numbers of mutas. He stated that right after this, you can start moving out with any extra hydras you make to deny expos and map control.
The next timing you can really exploit is if you can manage to get your hive up when they do. He also warned that failing to find out their hive timing actually creates a window where they could easily wipe out your army. If you manage to get your hive when they do, you create a scenario where they are facing hydra lurk under swarm and being hit with plague. Lings can't get close because of lurkers and mutas/sunks do nothing to hydras under swarm but the hydras just keep firing.
This guide is awesome. Satanik is and will always be a legend for his play. I remember him starting a thread a while ago about how play had stagnated nowadays. I think he would've supported this guide. Regarding the whole "mutaling is bettur" aspect, I really think hydra, for a most laddering zergs, would give a higher win rate than going with the known rock paper scissor style that mutaling is. Sure this build is not an optimal build vs all, but you'd probably be at an advantage vs most players by going this build in every ZvZ, since the odds of them knowing it better than you do, are pretty slim.
I'll definitely try it out sometime. It feels like this could be a way of controlling a game's length a little more, as in making games last longer so that longer game skill can have a larger influence. A lot of zergs might benefit largely from this, since we're not all good at small ling/muta battles.
Another thing about this is that it can easily change into a TvZ style of game. I've seen it happen sometime for Satanik I think. Zerg turtles into hydralurker, defend vs muta harass. Move out, facing lurkerling later with dark swarm retreating like a terran m&m army would, lurkerdrops etc. It looks so weird and the games are probably longer than a classical zvz if surviving early game.
On the note about the enemy's economy getting out of hand, this needs to be controlled with lurker drops from what I remember.
The truth of the matter is that if you go hydras in ZvZ you are leaving yourself at a disadvantage for a few reasons, first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die, if you're opponent takes 3rd/ 4th base with mass speedling then just adds some sunkens and goes muta off 3-4 gas with upgrades , you can't stop that with just hydras, You have map control with mutas, and once you reach a critical number the mutalisks with upgrades will just nom nom through spores no problem. You can't be everywhere at once, the only thing that you can hope for with mass hydra in ZvZ is that you will somehow get into the late game and get defiler with plague, otherwise you simply cannot win if you're opponent is competent enough with his muta / ling.
You are going to be at a disadvantage the moment he notices you have a lot of defense or are going hydralisks, and another problem arises in how difficult it will be to take a 3rd vs mass speedlings and mutalisks, you simply cannot have enough hydralisks to protect 3 bases at once vs muta ling ( potentially with upgrades ) , and also you are forced into losing drones to creative sunken / spore crawlers, which causes you to constantly rebuild drones while you're opponent can simply have 0 defense and only be focusing on getting way ahead of you in the macro game, wait till you try to roll out then kill you're main. Upgraded mutalisks in ZvZ are very strong vs spore crawlers so you can even have 8 spore crawlers and that wouldn't work vs 25-30 upgraded mutalisks, and if you are forced to constantly be going back to protect you're bases, then you are going to get behind inevitably.
The only way massing hydras will work in ZvZ I think is if you start out speedling heavy and do damage, or if you're opponent is bad at scouting / catches him off gaurd.
I knew you would eventually make another BW guide! Been waiting forever and now... something I may be able to use to beat low level Z with something other than P no FFE . Will read the whole thing later and edit this
edit: Read to 3rd page to see my thoughts on the guide and questions. Also, notice how the poster above me is saying sunken crawlers, spore crawlers....
On May 08 2012 04:19 GGzerG wrote: first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die
This makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would a build that aims to eventually get hydras be more vulnerable to speedling all-ins than a tech build? Any sort of hydra build, compared to a tech build, is going to have more larvae, more drones, more minerals--exactly what you need to defend with sunkens and lings.
On May 08 2012 04:19 GGzerG wrote: first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die
This makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would a build that aims to eventually get hydras be more vulnerable to speedling all-ins than a tech build? Any sort of hydra build, compared to a tech build, is going to have more larvae, more drones, more minerals--exactly what you need to defend with sunkens and lings.
12hatch, 11pool ,10gas straight into pure speedlings vs 11pool , 12hatch, 15hatch ?
Or am I mis understanding something about the opening build order in the OP? 11pool, 12expo (hatch ) , 15hatch ?
If that is the correct opening in the OP then yes I think 12hat , 11pool, 10gas into pure speedlings would be a BO win in most situations unless it is cross positions on a big map imo..
I don't really know what to tell you here. I don't think 2hatch speedlings can break 2-3+ sunks in a simcity (depending on how long I see you pumping lings), 8 lings and drones mildly microed. You would just get really far behind by wasting lings.
As for mass muta... A group of well microed muta is great against small numbers of hydra just like its great against small numbers of marines, but running 36 muta into 4 groups of upgraded hydra is gonna be about as effective as running that many muta into a large upgraded m'm ball.
The flaws of hydra play are not in cost effectiveness, hydra are much more cost effective. The flaws are in the difficulty of scouting after muta come out, how much you have to infer just by counting his muta and ling and how much you can poke out to do that. You tech straight to muta as fast as you can, you're not gonna have a great econ on two hatches. Hydra player will still be better even though they are spending a lot of larvae on static defence (because you are spending as much on mutaling). You can get the 3rd gas, and get more muta, but so far I just walk over players who get muta upgrade and mass mutaling. What's dangerous is when they switch to hydra themselves or tech and you don't know it. You are thinking about it in the wrong way imo.
I always thought hydras were garbage in ZvZ. Everybody thinks this and if you say you go hydras in zvz everybody will say your crazy and think your bad. Even the way you describe your build it sounds like it wouldn't work. But after watching a replay of Stanik do it. It actually makes sense. I really want to try this.
Since ZvZ is always muta/scourge/ling vs muta/scourge/ling. I bet this catches a ton of people off guard and they have no idea what to do against this, so they just melt before your hydras. Great write up.
When I played BW competitively I used 9hatch/9pool/9ves/9ol. Pull drones off for the 100 gas and flat shove mass speedling. If they play mass defense, you go hydra with the +1 upgrade vs his mutas since its gonna be a 1base defensive muta based play style.
This build effectively stopped any early pool and early hatch openings. Now I haven't played Bw since 2008 so this build may very well not be viable but then again it may very well not have been seen for the past 3-4 years and could be viable.
On May 08 2012 08:04 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: When I played BW competitively I used 9hatch/9pool/9ves/9ol. Pull drones off for the 100 gas and flat shove mass speedling. If they play mass defense, you go hydra with the +1 upgrade vs his mutas since its gonna be a 1base defensive muta based play style.
This build effectively stopped any early pool and early hatch openings. Now I haven't played Bw since 2008 so this build may very well not be viable but then again it may very well not have been seen for the past 3-4 years and could be viable.
The all-in speedling build of recent is actually a 10 hatch (extractor trick) 9pool 9gas 8ol make lings.drone off at 100 gas.
But to further my point about the static defense: When your opponent makes drones and sunkens, you can make drones and hatcheries. The "hydra zerg" would have more drones before the mutas come out, but once the mutas kill the scouting overlord, or when the "hydra zerg" removes the overlord from the opponent's base, the "hydra zerg" must start making more sunken/spore again, while his opponent starts to drone whore and expand. Because of the lack of a mobile army, the "hydra zerg" cannot attack the expansions. Meanwhile, his opponent can simply place an overlord behind (map dependent though) the natural and main mineral lines, unless another spore is place to force the overlord away.
I'm sure i'm missing some subtle adaptations to the "hydra zerg's" play, but it seems like he loses all control of the game once his opponents first muta pops out.
On May 08 2012 05:13 hellbound wrote: I hate hydra ZvZ soooo much. Someone write a guide how to counter this style properly please.
Because I just know that every other D+ zerg on iccup will be trying this out now.
Normally, when I see hydra ZvZ, I expand, drone up, and get like 11 mutas to harass. Main points of harass are gas drones for nat, wandering hydras, and any exposed buildings. Against hydras, micro like you do vs MnM except they can't stim and suddenly rush you. Pick them off if they're in a line. 9 mutas all shooting once will kill a hydra if you A-click and micro back. It's very effective for cutting off reinforcements and weakening their attack once they come out. After you get a decent drone saturation while getting up to three base, just throw down a few extra hatcheries and pump lings along with continuing muta production or transition hydra/lurk/hive. It's really up to you.
When you see their hydra numbers getting large, build a few sunkens at your nat and third. I think 2-3 each works if you're pumping mutas/lings after getting drones. Muta/Ling/Sunken works very well against hydras if you can sneak out like 1-2 control groups of lings and surround him from back once he attacks. Constantly using mutas to harass his reinforcements and his attack will also make it much easier to hold off. After you kill the attack, deny his third and just starve him out.
Mind you, this is D+ level advice. Take it with tons of salt.
Let's say the opponent happens to read this guide: What stopping them from getting a proxy hatch and then doing a sunken contain? They know that since they have 2 gas long before you do, they will always have air superiority.
Thanks for the guide chef! I've been looking for a good hydra ZvZ build and I can't wait to try this... I haven't tried it so I dont know how long this build will take you but once the other player sees scouts you out couldnt he -spam lings and overwhelm you at the point where you have 8 lings and 3 sunkens? or -2 hatch hydra bust?
On May 08 2012 10:00 asiantraceur wrote: Thanks for the guide chef! I've been looking for a good hydra ZvZ build and I can't wait to try this... I haven't tried it so I dont know how long this build will take you but once the other player sees scouts you out couldnt he -spam lings and overwhelm you at the point where you have 8 lings and 3 sunkens? or -2 hatch hydra bust?
low amounts of hydras suck against lings. It would be like running into cannons and zealots when you only have enough to deal with the cannons.
If your defenses are seemingly too little, you can always pull drone and drone drill their lings. Also, if you feel quite anal, get the evo chamber slightly early for a little sim city. Mass lings against 2+ sunks in generally way too inefficient, especially considering drone count is heavily in favor of the hydra zerg.
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote: Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well.
edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote: Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well.
edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote: Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well.
edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
That's probably because he was there last during the era of clans like ToT at its height. Neogamei (which I doubt most here even know about) and other servers were big back then, and progamers still played on iccup in droves. Now the people who during that era were the "still learning" B-/B players are now the B+/A-/A/A+ players. The lower ranks got harder to progress in, and the higher ranks got easier to attain.
You can read exactly what he said here though. He was annoyed that it took too long to find your true rank, and that the system encouraged abuse. He was also unhappy that players were uninventive.
If it means anything to people, Day[9] used hydras successfully at A- a few years ago.
Hydras really are an overlooked option. Early game the timing and lack of scouting make it difficult to find your footing, but hydra armies are incredibly difficult to face once they build up any kind of significant force, not to mention that casters affect mutas much worse than they do hydras.
I still remember my first ladder experience against hydras back on WGT... roughly a decade ago now. I just couldn't understand how my gazillion speedlings could just MELT against several control groups of hydras. Midgame a ling/muta user really has to focus on harassment and in order to face a hydra army head-on, outstanding flanking with ling and muta in combination is absolutely critical.
On May 09 2012 15:14 Mortality wrote: If it means anything to people, Day[9] used hydras successfully at A- a few years ago.
Hydras really are an overlooked option. Early game the timing and lack of scouting make it difficult to find your footing, but hydra armies are incredibly difficult to face once they build up any kind of significant force, not to mention that casters affect mutas much worse than they do hydras.
I still remember my first ladder experience against hydras back on WGT... roughly a decade ago now. I just couldn't understand how my gazillion speedlings could just MELT against several control groups of hydras. Midgame a ling/muta user really has to focus on harassment and in order to face a hydra army head-on, outstanding flanking with ling and muta in combination is absolutely critical.
typically, an all zergling against hydralisk, you should end up with about 3-4 zerglings for every hydra. If your 252-336 zerglings are dying to his 84 hydralisks, then something is seriously wrong.
On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote: Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus.
My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level.
actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well.
edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
I recall I was inactive lots of that season, I've beaten plenty of better zergs than him btw so I don't really care about it
also, we were talking about the validity of the build in zvz, not that he can win a zvp
Even though he has a point, that pretty much doesn't mean anything. But hey, you'll notice the best player who have posted in this thread seem to like your build so, overall nice guide =) I have in fact once won a game against hydra zvz, it was really close and fun =) Won't use it cause I make enough hydras in ZvP and I love muta/ling micro, but I sure hope more people try it.
I finally got a chance to sit down and read this guide but I realized how far behind my original post was so I think I'll post here so it is seen. I'm gonna edit any comments or questions in here.
1) I fully agree with the intro. As a part-time Chess player and part-time Star Craft player I always study if I can. I've been searching for guides though, not replays unless linked from the guide itself. Hmm... might be a good idea. ^^
2) Question:
24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.
Where do I put this? In my main in case they successfully run-by me? In my nat? Over near where I expect to make a Spore Colony? You really weren't clear here unlike you were just beforehand.
3) Question: When I pull drones to defend against an attack, exactly how many? 2? 3? 4?
4) Question: How does this fair against Kau's Proxy Hatch? How do you react?
5)@14 or so creep colonies you should probably edit that Lair pic :p
6) Thanks for this! I will totally try this out after looking at a good 2-4 replays and then look at more after I(most likely) lose :p.
7)@your responses on this first page you actually make me more wanting to try out the build because of just how fiercely your defended it and with such determination. Along with the 2nd/3rd response where you said things like if the opponent is used to your hydras you go mutas, and if they are droning a lot you go mass speedling. Chef, never change
Well, the guide is more a basis for how to learn a build when you have a few replays. I get the feeling post of the replys tho have not read the OP and are just reacting to the BO / unit composition.
I could make a guide on how to TvZ nuke rush off one base using HiyA's replays and get about the same responses. Ya, it might not be something you want to do to maximize results vs people who practice 10 hours a day, but it sure looks cool when you do it vs other amateurs and makes the game more interesting. It doesn't mean it's a noob strategy or that it hasn't been well thought out.. lord knows going weird unit compositions and strategies often have a tonne of vulnerabilities you need to account for and develop the strategy on. I think it's silly to say the obvious that standard is more practical / stable... because obv it is, that's why it's standard. I would love a guide on good standard play, but most foreigners don't know how to play it and I'm not terribly interested in putting the effort into studying it from scratch myself.
@FFA, that third sunken goes at your nat. Use lings and drones to prevent a runby if it becomes an issue. If they get one or two lings thru due to some scrappy early play, hope they're weakened enough and you have good drone micro to finish them like in a normal zvz. There isn't really any point in keeping one in your main tbh.
Thanks for the fast reply! I had a feeling there wouldn't be a point to it but I felt like throwing it out there since although I main Protoss I have always wanted to try ZvZ with Hydras ever since I tried 5 ZvZs all ending in dieing to either the early lings or the early mutas. Basically, I am a noob to ZvZ ^.^
yes It is a viable build at the end, I just wanted to point out that mutas are pretty good. good write up, hope to see some hydras from future tournaments.
On May 10 2012 15:39 gutshot wrote: yes It is a viable build at the end, I just wanted to point out that mutas are pretty good. good write up, hope to see some hydras from future tournaments.
This now makes 3 A-/A rank Zergs saying this is good. Michael, you think you could show us a bit of this on fish the next time you stream? I'd love to see an FPVOD of a fish C pulling this off. Would be unreal as reference material for the OP.
While i agree that this is totally possible and doable, Its a way of playing for "fun". On competitive level, this "should" not work. What im trying to say is that it works if you enemy mess up or you re far better.
Satanik has a great knowledge of this game. Most of the other players dont.
Hydra builds are simply a lot harder to pull off, becouse you have to take judgement calls that are more complicated, like when to atack, with how much, on what location. Mutas are far easier in this matter.
Finally, due to the fact that this build is rearly used, it has the potential to catch you enemy off guard, and beat him. however, dont count on it to work vsn expirienced player.
Perhaps you could play vs Michael or Baku then. One of you using this build, the other using a more "standard" muta/ling build. It would be wonderful example material for us to draw off of to determine how viable this still is at the modern B/B+/A-/A level.
I've only seen Bakuryu play twice, and both of them he went hydra zvz lol. ISL or something when I wanted to see what the quality of production was for it.
I think this is a very cool strategy, I love hydra's. They're one of my favourite units because they're just so damn awesome.
I watched the first replay of satanic zvz's. I'm sure from what you described etc that a lot of adaptations can be used, but the 'salandar' guy just did not adapt to what he saw. He sees a zerg put up 14 colonys (spores + sunken) and even has a ling contain on the guy for 10 minutes. He takes his natural really late and takes a third after 10 minutes. That seems like really weak decision making.
I'm going to try this strategy though, because I simply love hydra's.
third game; the orange zerg had the correct response. But wrong unit composition; he morphes guardians after he spots a lot of devourers? And a good flank with links could do wonders. But as you've said, If I'd encounter this strategy I'd probably do the same as orange but just go mass hydras and muta's (and morph into devourers if needed).
I thought about ultra's, but I speculate they're weak vs mass hydras. Defiler tech could be useful but then you'd need a lot of lings and if he has lurkers out, the lings still get raped under the swarm and you'll have cast swarm over his hydra's vs your muta's. Plague might be usefull. Guardians are too slow and not good in open battles.
But I think the orange zerg made the correct decision making (besides unit composition). And maybe get those first few muta's out faster to kill some ovies + scout (so he could have spot the spire tech quicker) and make him think you're massing muta's.
On May 10 2012 05:03 3FFA wrote: I finally got a chance to sit down and read this guide but I realized how far behind my original post was so I think I'll post here so it is seen. I'm gonna edit any comments or questions in here.
1) I fully agree with the intro. As a part-time Chess player and part-time Star Craft player I always study if I can. I've been searching for guides though, not replays unless linked from the guide itself. Hmm... might be a good idea. ^^
2) Question:
24 colony... Get this too. Most Zergs build a lot of lings even when rushing to mutas, and you don't wanna be caught with your pants down.
Where do I put this? In my main in case they successfully run-by me? In my nat? Over near where I expect to make a Spore Colony? You really weren't clear here unlike you were just beforehand.
3) Question: When I pull drones to defend against an attack, exactly how many? 2? 3? 4?
4) Question: How does this fair against Kau's Proxy Hatch? How do you react?
5)@14 or so creep colonies you should probably edit that Lair pic :p
6) Thanks for this! I will totally try this out after looking at a good 2-4 replays and then look at more after I(most likely) lose :p.
7)@your responses on this first page you actually make me more wanting to try out the build because of just how fiercely your defended it and with such determination. Along with the 2nd/3rd response where you said things like if the opponent is used to your hydras you go mutas, and if they are droning a lot you go mass speedling. Chef, never change
Can you respond to the edits of my previous post? Thanks Chef!
um... I would just pull all the drones at the nat probably. It would be completely based on whether it looked like he had enough lings to break through. It's basically the same reaction you'd have vs marines and medics trying to run up your ramp past sunkens, or zealots. You are only gonna need them there for a few seconds, and it's completely critical they don't get through. You just pull them all and if you keep them at your nat and they die to your sunkens you're so far ahead it doesn't matter you lost a little mining time.
Kau's proxy hatch... I would probably just build lings off 3 hatch. Maybe get speed, forget about hydra for a bit because the proxy hatch needs to die, and it's really hard for him to defend. You have to actually see the proxy hatch of course, but it is very easy to deal with if you know it's there. Could even get a sunk in your main vs that if you wanted to be extra safe.
there wasn't an icon for a lair, so I just wrote it
But yeah.. normal zvz sense applies in the early game. If he is doing something weird or all-inish, you should react to it properly. The build just puts you in a position to react to most stuff.
Ahh ok thanks again! Just wondering, would you or anyone else mind getting more replays of this in use? 4-5 of u and Satanik each isn't that many replays . Also, having to go pee as an answer to a RE? was hilarious to read.
lol I just won with this a few times on iCCup @D level. I forgot to save the replay though >.> Very nice strategy. edit: Just found where you originally posted this in 2008. I thought this said this was a new build? :o Also, will you be doing any other guides soon? edit: Lots of replays and videos there of hydra ZvZ. Mostly other builds, but it still gives an idea.
Okay, so talking about this strategy with some good players I made a few refinements:
1. Get +1 carapace first. It's more effective against muta bounce, and +1 attack only increases damage by 0.5 (yes, it actually works this way).
so first upgrade gives you only 10% more damage vs. mutas, while the carapace reduces muta damage three times (assuming muta +1 attack it reduces the damage to main targets as much, while also having a good effect against the bounce)
I think once the mutas do start getting air armor upgrades it's worth getting +1 damage. Going from 4 to 4.5 is now a 12.5% increase at a much lower cost than +2 carapace. I get +3 carapace first in the game, but it's probably not ideal.
2. I go overpool because I'm bad at micro (that's why I go hydra in the first place!)
this is the vod, I'm not very good, but my opponent stays on muta after I already got defilers and doesn't have lings because I have lurkers
Some things that seem vital to me for a successful hydralisk build are the following:
- Opening with 12 pool into a natural hatchery. 12 pool is probably the best all-round ZvZ opening that can still react to anything your opponent decided to do. Do not skip the extractor nor speed. It has too many benefits to not get it (versatility in attack and stability in defense).
- Hide your intentions. Don't build your third hatchery at the natural, build it in your main. Hide your hydralisk den in the corner of the map. Hide your hydralisks when you are building them for as long as you can (maybe even play around with burrow). I also want to mention that only going for hydralisks in cross-spawn positions might be a decent idea as well. It depends, there's advantages as well as disadvantages. This way your opponent doesn't see you pulling drones off gas in your main immediately and won't know about your third hatchery too soon. It will also make defending against the first mutalisks slightly easier as they'll arrive slightly later at your main. Of course the walking distance will be greater for you when you eventually move out with all the undesirable ramifications.
- Go for a timing attack where you wait for critical upgrades and possibly lurkers to accompany you. I tend to do a 2/1 or 1/2 attack, not sure which one is better. More carapace will be great if he uses lings but if you have lurkers they shouldn't be a problem making more attack upgrades vs the mutalisks more desirable. Besides, I think mutalisks in general waste a lot of shots through overkill which makes carapace upgrades less effective? (Would have to do some testing to verify).
- I think a 4 hatchery build on 2 bases is the most you can support for a relatively early timing attack.
- Find out optimal spore positioning. I once tested a configuration that consists of 4 spores at the vertices of a square or rhomboid plane. It allowed 3 spores to fire at the same time (not the case for all of the spores) iirc. (Here's an example, for the other naturals it isn't always the same. Plus there's trade-offs, which spot do you want to be covered the most? In this one for example the extractor might be a bit too exposed, so you can mirror it if you'd like. But that will leave the left spores more exposed and vulnerable to be sniped. But that location is more easily accessible by your hydralisks and he's trading time/mutalisks for spores anyway.).
- Learn the mutalisk timings for all different opening bo's. For example, a lair first 9 pool build will have mutalisks by 5:05 and thus can have mutalisks in your base around 5:20-5:30. Add roughly 25 seconds for a speed first build. Etc.
Some specifics:
- I like to get my evo chamber around 5 minutes (versus a 9 pool build), and then i'll start mining gas again for my +1 carapace. You should have around 150 gas by the time the evo finishes.
- You can start the creep colonies halfway through your evo chamber and they'll finish at the same time. You can delay morphing them into spores if he's targeting overlords instead of moving towards your bases.
- If you went for the 12 pool build order with speed, you can put on A LOT of pressure very rapidly if he gets too greedy and to take pressure off yourself (by using the speedlings you still have left over or by making some new ones). If everything's failing, you can still get "lucky" with a near maxed attack or with some defilers and plague (in case he stays on mutalisks).
edit: Some problems I'm running into currently are: 1) Guardians 2) Sunken walls 3) Getting scouting information 4) People also going for 3 hatcheries.
Number 1 and 3 are very much correlated. My build order does incorporate overlord speed but I haven't been using it to scout, so maybe I'll have to try to get some scouting information that way.
Scouting with lone zerglings is good, but it stops working when they get a single sunken and/or have some units camping at their natural.
Number 1 can probably be solved by getting a spire myself, but I'll have to get the scouting information in first.
Number 2 is surely a problem but if they can't handle my army and they're investing this much into sunkens I should probably focus on going to hive (for defilers) and securing a third (or more) bases.
Number 4. I don't think it's viable to go hydralisks against someone who already has 3 hatcheries. They can get their economy up way too fast. It's also much cheaper to just go mutalisks instead of hydralisks (Hydralisk den, Muscular augments, Grooved spines, Lurker aspect, (Pneumatized Carapace), Spore Colonies, possibly ground carapace and missile attacks <=> Spire, Flyer carapace) meaning they'll get their required drone count TONS earlier than you.
And holy shit is it difficult to get drones to build creep colonies exactly where you want them. DRONES BLOCKING, LARVAE BLOCKING, what's next?? OVERLORDS BLOCKING. lol
To comment on some things B-royal said, I wanted to list my concerns. I'm not entirely sure about going gas. That might just be preference, and personally I opt for 4 hatches and spores before gas. That way I get more mineral income and larvae. Versus an earlier muta timing, like 9 pool speed muta timing, I probably will hover more idle larvae, but larvae are eventually spent.
As for getting speed for the versatility of attacking and defending, that isn't needed. I get a sunken colony to devote more larvae to drones for more minerals. Getting 3 hatcheries worth of lings could be powerful, but if the opponent makes an appropriate number of lings then it's all for naught and delays your 4th hatchery. Making lings instead of drones, devoting drones to mining gas instead of minerals, and getting speed all delay the critical 4th hatchery. Additionally, the extractor when it's not mined from is not optimal use.
The 4th hatchery is quite critical to supplying the larvae, making a lot of drones earlier on, obtaining a high mineral income essential for hydras, and, overall, getting a higher amount of hydras. Also there's an optimal time when you should start getting hydras. Getting Hydras at 3 hatcheries is quite inefficient and doesn't get that critical mass ball that mutas should fear like they would a lot of M&M.
In the use of hydras in timing attacks, I like to strike as early as possible as soon as +1 carapace strikes, which I start upgrading before i get my Hydra Den started. The hydra player takes on a role similar to Terran in TvZ I feel, needing to pressure Zerg to not let them drone, expand, and tech too freely. By attacking early, you strike when a few factors align. You strain the muta player's lack of mineral income, needing to get sunkens. The more time allowed for the muta player to drone freely, they can easily take new bases and properly defend elsewhere, all while harrasing the hydra player's main and natural. Threatening to take out their natural and possible expansions alleviates that pressure and allows you to dictate the pace and get a 3rd base. The critical mass of Hydras is reached, where if a Muta were to engage a hydra at the edge of the ball, the mutas would be in the range limit of nearly all available hydras you have. I think Lurkers are interesting but would delay the push. Also, simple army vs. army engagements I think favor hydras.
Overall, getting the 4th hatchery is really important to emphasize larva, minerals, and getting a higher hydra count. In addition, putting the pressure early on is also important to limit the mutalisk player.
Edit: I'm gonna make it a tentative claim. You might be right, B-Royal, cuz I just got smashed by a guy who droned like crazy and got a much faster 3rd base than me. I guess a balance needs to be struck of lings and drones. I recall Day9 saying you should make some lings versus a high teching player, but not too many because their play is designed specifically to not lose to that, but just enough to strain their lack of minerals.
On January 31 2017 13:58 Jealous wrote: I just want to add a brief note that the player "karate" on I think Fish (might be ICCup though) has been doing this build periodically.
1. I know he is a foreigner 2. I am pretty sure he played in the most recent TSL 3. The reps I have in mind were VOD form
If anyone can help me find these, I would love to contribute to this discussion.
I think also the VOD was in some "Highlights of Russian Players" or something from ICCup.
Anyway, it worked great.
I remember a ZvZ between karate and pike on Gladiator that was highly unorthodox. I can't provide the link right now (I'm not at home) but it is in my Iccup profile. It also can be found somewhere on Sayle's YouTube channel. I don't remember who went for the hyd build though. Well... the other didn't just go pure muta/ling most likely due to good game sense. That game is worth watching!
On January 31 2017 13:58 Jealous wrote: I just want to add a brief note that the player "karate" on I think Fish (might be ICCup though) has been doing this build periodically.
1. I know he is a foreigner 2. I am pretty sure he played in the most recent TSL 3. The reps I have in mind were VOD form
If anyone can help me find these, I would love to contribute to this discussion.
I think also the VOD was in some "Highlights of Russian Players" or something from ICCup.
Anyway, it worked great.
I remember a ZvZ between karate and pike on Gladiator that was highly unorthodox. I can't provide the link right now (I'm not at home) but it is in my Iccup profile. It also can be found somewhere on Sayle's YouTube channel. I don't remember who went for the hyd build though. Well... the other didn't just go pure muta/ling most likely due to good game sense. That game is worth watching!
I think that is the one I particularly had in mind, but I know there are others!
I've found the game I think you are referring to:
Actually, the game I was thinking of was different, now that I found this. I think Karate was bottom left and went for a similar build to this game; his opponent was top left. It was also on a Shakuras tileset, but it might have been Jade and not Gladiator.
On January 31 2017 13:58 Jealous wrote: I just want to add a brief note that the player "karate" on I think Fish (might be ICCup though) has been doing this build periodically.
1. I know he is a foreigner 2. I am pretty sure he played in the most recent TSL 3. The reps I have in mind were VOD form
If anyone can help me find these, I would love to contribute to this discussion.
I think also the VOD was in some "Highlights of Russian Players" or something from ICCup.
Anyway, it worked great.
I remember a ZvZ between karate and pike on Gladiator that was highly unorthodox. I can't provide the link right now (I'm not at home) but it is in my Iccup profile. It also can be found somewhere on Sayle's YouTube channel. I don't remember who went for the hyd build though. Well... the other didn't just go pure muta/ling most likely due to good game sense. That game is worth watching!
I think that is the one I particularly had in mind, but I know there are others!
Actually, the game I was thinking of was different, now that I found this. I think Karate was bottom left and went for a similar build to this game; his opponent was top left. It was also on a Shakuras tileset, but it might have been Jade and not Gladiator.
Yup, this is the game I was referring to. If you find the one you thought of, lemme know^^
Actually, the game I was thinking of was different, now that I found this. I think Karate was bottom left and went for a similar build to this game; his opponent was top left. It was also on a Shakuras tileset, but it might have been Jade and not Gladiator.
he way over-committed by making 12 spores and he placed his first hatch wrong (because it was far away from his spawn he had to place spores to protect that area as well)
I usually bunch up my buildings and get by with just 8 spores unless I see more than 11 mutas
His most important mistake was not having a solid game plan or build order at all. The decision to go hydralisks was most likely on the spur of the moment.
edit: I also updated my previous post to include some caveats and difficulties.
Nice game eon. Yeah 12 hatch is not something you can do every time. Be sure to give 12 pool a try, which is something you can do every time as far as I know.
edit: I'd really get lurkers next time if the plan is to wait for hive. Once you have lurkers, all zerglings of your opponent are useless and you can actually start using swarm in fights as well.
I'm making a replay pack, seeing how far I can go until it stops working/gets impossible. One unfortunate effect of my build order is the mass speedling battles happen too often for my liking.
Some comments about my own games so far:
1. Return your second overlord towards your natural again after you've identified his position. Be sure to keep any other overlords in your natural/main. You can not afford to lose more than 1 overlord or it can set you back a lot during the period where you NEED to spend all your minerals on drones/spores.
2. Spore positioning is SUPER Important. I think I've finally figured out the spore positioning for all naturals.
3. I'm going to play around with burrow (hydras) a couple of times to see if it can help with really hard harass. Might fail completely, who knows. It's also not cheap. I'm trying to cut corners where-ever and whenever I can.
4. Getting a spire versus guardians is quite effective! It'll just be a matter of knowing if they're coming.
5. If I see my opponent getting 10 or more sunkens etc I just put down a queen's nest immediately so I can tech towards defilers. Then I focus on getting a 3rd base and 4th base.
6. Getting a third base is quite doable since they're so close by on fighting spirit but a 4th base is really difficult. He has a lot more mobility so can engage with full force where he likes but you're forced to split up your army too much.
First part of the replay pack! 29 games, got me exactly to C-. I've played people varying from D to B- rank (at least when I checked their history) and I've learned a ton.
I think my build order is solid*. Every game I lost had a ton of easily fixable mistakes. This is primarily because of a lack of experience with the build. I am confident I would win those same games if I was put in the same situation today.
1. Failing to realize I can attack into the sunkens (in case there's only 2-4).
2. Not knowing how to deal with guardians initially.
3. Being outsmarted, not defending multiple locations properly enough.
4. Not going for hive.
Some games did not feature any hydralisks at all because it ended before I could get them. You can easily check this with BWChart.
I will work on analyzing all my losses and adding it here in case anyone's interested in that. I will also continue to play and release my replays again when I have 50, and then I'll see if I want to continue going on with it (as I did only play zvz for like a week straight lol).
edit I did only do one single build order that consisted of a 1/2 (attack/carapace) timing attack including lurkers. One particular game (a hydra vs hydra game) made me realize that this is a HUGE investment, delaying my attack by a lot. In other words, I think it could be a good thing to try out a different variation where I focus less on upgrades etc and purely on hydra. Hopefully this attack would hit much earlier with a really high number of hydralisks to take them by surprise.
I really like the 9 pool expand, it can easily deny 12 hatch expand, and only really struggles vs. 12 pool.
The problem vs. 12 pool is you have no way of denying an early third unless you take a delayed gas and research speed first. Which I guess is possible.
The biggest problem is that when you 12 hatch, and they 12 hatch they have too many zerglings to really pressure them. So I prefer the 9 pool to always play vs. a small econ Zerg
Larva's attempt is fairly poor, but he limited himself to building no zerglings, and sneaks out a ninja expansion that his opponent never scouts even though it's not even a "hidden" base
his spore placement is very poor, no defensive spore at choke, he then suicides into sunken colonies + mutas, gets rekt by guardians because he has no spire
I can post much better games, and my opponents are about the same skill level, lol