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Well, I still don't have a working laptop in my hands yet (still posting from phone in the hospital), but my friend who is B- on iccup tried this style out last night and reported success with it. He noted 2 key points at which he had advantages in the matchup vs muta/ling. You may want to focus on these if you're trying this out for timings.
There's a point just after their initial mutas where your spore/hydra defense sitting in your base is simply impregnable due to their low numbers of mutas. He stated that right after this, you can start moving out with any extra hydras you make to deny expos and map control.
The next timing you can really exploit is if you can manage to get your hive up when they do. He also warned that failing to find out their hive timing actually creates a window where they could easily wipe out your army. If you manage to get your hive when they do, you create a scenario where they are facing hydra lurk under swarm and being hit with plague. Lings can't get close because of lurkers and mutas/sunks do nothing to hydras under swarm but the hydras just keep firing.
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This guide is awesome. Satanik is and will always be a legend for his play. I remember him starting a thread a while ago about how play had stagnated nowadays. I think he would've supported this guide. Regarding the whole "mutaling is bettur" aspect, I really think hydra, for a most laddering zergs, would give a higher win rate than going with the known rock paper scissor style that mutaling is. Sure this build is not an optimal build vs all, but you'd probably be at an advantage vs most players by going this build in every ZvZ, since the odds of them knowing it better than you do, are pretty slim.
I'll definitely try it out sometime. It feels like this could be a way of controlling a game's length a little more, as in making games last longer so that longer game skill can have a larger influence. A lot of zergs might benefit largely from this, since we're not all good at small ling/muta battles.
Another thing about this is that it can easily change into a TvZ style of game. I've seen it happen sometime for Satanik I think. Zerg turtles into hydralurker, defend vs muta harass. Move out, facing lurkerling later with dark swarm retreating like a terran m&m army would, lurkerdrops etc. It looks so weird and the games are probably longer than a classical zvz if surviving early game.
On the note about the enemy's economy getting out of hand, this needs to be controlled with lurker drops from what I remember.
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The truth of the matter is that if you go hydras in ZvZ you are leaving yourself at a disadvantage for a few reasons, first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die, if you're opponent takes 3rd/ 4th base with mass speedling then just adds some sunkens and goes muta off 3-4 gas with upgrades , you can't stop that with just hydras, You have map control with mutas, and once you reach a critical number the mutalisks with upgrades will just nom nom through spores no problem. You can't be everywhere at once, the only thing that you can hope for with mass hydra in ZvZ is that you will somehow get into the late game and get defiler with plague, otherwise you simply cannot win if you're opponent is competent enough with his muta / ling.
You are going to be at a disadvantage the moment he notices you have a lot of defense or are going hydralisks, and another problem arises in how difficult it will be to take a 3rd vs mass speedlings and mutalisks, you simply cannot have enough hydralisks to protect 3 bases at once vs muta ling ( potentially with upgrades ) , and also you are forced into losing drones to creative sunken / spore crawlers, which causes you to constantly rebuild drones while you're opponent can simply have 0 defense and only be focusing on getting way ahead of you in the macro game, wait till you try to roll out then kill you're main. Upgraded mutalisks in ZvZ are very strong vs spore crawlers so you can even have 8 spore crawlers and that wouldn't work vs 25-30 upgraded mutalisks, and if you are forced to constantly be going back to protect you're bases, then you are going to get behind inevitably.
The only way massing hydras will work in ZvZ I think is if you start out speedling heavy and do damage, or if you're opponent is bad at scouting / catches him off gaurd.
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I knew you would eventually make another BW guide! Been waiting forever and now... something I may be able to use to beat low level Z with something other than P no FFE  . Will read the whole thing later and edit this 
edit: Read to 3rd page to see my thoughts on the guide and questions. Also, notice how the poster above me is saying sunken crawlers, spore crawlers....
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On May 08 2012 04:19 GGzerG wrote:
first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die
This makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would a build that aims to eventually get hydras be more vulnerable to speedling all-ins than a tech build? Any sort of hydra build, compared to a tech build, is going to have more larvae, more drones, more minerals--exactly what you need to defend with sunkens and lings.
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I hate hydra ZvZ soooo much. Someone write a guide how to counter this style properly please.
Because I just know that every other D+ zerg on iccup will be trying this out now.
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On May 08 2012 05:00 blueblimp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 04:19 GGzerG wrote:
first being if you're opponent opens hatch first, pool, then gas immediatly after into mass speedlings you will die This makes absolutely no sense. Why on earth would a build that aims to eventually get hydras be more vulnerable to speedling all-ins than a tech build? Any sort of hydra build, compared to a tech build, is going to have more larvae, more drones, more minerals--exactly what you need to defend with sunkens and lings.
12hatch, 11pool ,10gas straight into pure speedlings vs 11pool , 12hatch, 15hatch ?
Or am I mis understanding something about the opening build order in the OP? 11pool, 12expo (hatch ) , 15hatch ?
If that is the correct opening in the OP then yes I think 12hat , 11pool, 10gas into pure speedlings would be a BO win in most situations unless it is cross positions on a big map imo..
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I don't really know what to tell you here. I don't think 2hatch speedlings can break 2-3+ sunks in a simcity (depending on how long I see you pumping lings), 8 lings and drones mildly microed. You would just get really far behind by wasting lings.
As for mass muta... A group of well microed muta is great against small numbers of hydra just like its great against small numbers of marines, but running 36 muta into 4 groups of upgraded hydra is gonna be about as effective as running that many muta into a large upgraded m'm ball.
The flaws of hydra play are not in cost effectiveness, hydra are much more cost effective. The flaws are in the difficulty of scouting after muta come out, how much you have to infer just by counting his muta and ling and how much you can poke out to do that. You tech straight to muta as fast as you can, you're not gonna have a great econ on two hatches. Hydra player will still be better even though they are spending a lot of larvae on static defence (because you are spending as much on mutaling). You can get the 3rd gas, and get more muta, but so far I just walk over players who get muta upgrade and mass mutaling. What's dangerous is when they switch to hydra themselves or tech and you don't know it. You are thinking about it in the wrong way imo.
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I always thought hydras were garbage in ZvZ. Everybody thinks this and if you say you go hydras in zvz everybody will say your crazy and think your bad. Even the way you describe your build it sounds like it wouldn't work. But after watching a replay of Stanik do it. It actually makes sense. I really want to try this.
Since ZvZ is always muta/scourge/ling vs muta/scourge/ling. I bet this catches a ton of people off guard and they have no idea what to do against this, so they just melt before your hydras. Great write up.
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When I played BW competitively I used 9hatch/9pool/9ves/9ol. Pull drones off for the 100 gas and flat shove mass speedling. If they play mass defense, you go hydra with the +1 upgrade vs his mutas since its gonna be a 1base defensive muta based play style.
This build effectively stopped any early pool and early hatch openings. Now I haven't played Bw since 2008 so this build may very well not be viable but then again it may very well not have been seen for the past 3-4 years and could be viable.
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On May 08 2012 08:04 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:
When I played BW competitively I used 9hatch/9pool/9ves/9ol. Pull drones off for the 100 gas and flat shove mass speedling. If they play mass defense, you go hydra with the +1 upgrade vs his mutas since its gonna be a 1base defensive muta based play style.
This build effectively stopped any early pool and early hatch openings. Now I haven't played Bw since 2008 so this build may very well not be viable but then again it may very well not have been seen for the past 3-4 years and could be viable.
The all-in speedling build of recent is actually a
10 hatch (extractor trick)
9pool
9gas
8ol
make lings.drone off at 100 gas.
But to further my point about the static defense: When your opponent makes drones and sunkens, you can make drones and hatcheries. The "hydra zerg" would have more drones before the mutas come out, but once the mutas kill the scouting overlord, or when the "hydra zerg" removes the overlord from the opponent's base, the "hydra zerg" must start making more sunken/spore again, while his opponent starts to drone whore and expand. Because of the lack of a mobile army, the "hydra zerg" cannot attack the expansions. Meanwhile, his opponent can simply place an overlord behind (map dependent though) the natural and main mineral lines, unless another spore is place to force the overlord away.
I'm sure i'm missing some subtle adaptations to the "hydra zerg's" play, but it seems like he loses all control of the game once his opponents first muta pops out.
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On May 08 2012 05:13 hellbound wrote:
I hate hydra ZvZ soooo much. Someone write a guide how to counter this style properly please.
Because I just know that every other D+ zerg on iccup will be trying this out now.
Normally, when I see hydra ZvZ, I expand, drone up, and get like 11 mutas to harass. Main points of harass are gas drones for nat, wandering hydras, and any exposed buildings. Against hydras, micro like you do vs MnM except they can't stim and suddenly rush you. Pick them off if they're in a line. 9 mutas all shooting once will kill a hydra if you A-click and micro back. It's very effective for cutting off reinforcements and weakening their attack once they come out. After you get a decent drone saturation while getting up to three base, just throw down a few extra hatcheries and pump lings along with continuing muta production or transition hydra/lurk/hive. It's really up to you.
When you see their hydra numbers getting large, build a few sunkens at your nat and third. I think 2-3 each works if you're pumping mutas/lings after getting drones. Muta/Ling/Sunken works very well against hydras if you can sneak out like 1-2 control groups of lings and surround him from back once he attacks. Constantly using mutas to harass his reinforcements and his attack will also make it much easier to hold off. After you kill the attack, deny his third and just starve him out.
Mind you, this is D+ level advice. Take it with tons of salt. 
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Let's say the opponent happens to read this guide:
What stopping them from getting a proxy hatch and then doing a sunken contain?
They know that since they have 2 gas long before you do, they will always have air superiority.
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Thanks for the guide chef! I've been looking for a good hydra ZvZ build and I can't wait to try this...
I haven't tried it so I dont know how long this build will take you but once the other player sees scouts you out couldnt he
-spam lings and overwhelm you at the point where you have 8 lings and 3 sunkens?
or
-2 hatch hydra bust?
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On May 08 2012 10:00 asiantraceur wrote:
Thanks for the guide chef! I've been looking for a good hydra ZvZ build and I can't wait to try this...
I haven't tried it so I dont know how long this build will take you but once the other player sees scouts you out couldnt he
-spam lings and overwhelm you at the point where you have 8 lings and 3 sunkens?
or
-2 hatch hydra bust?
low amounts of hydras suck against lings. It would be like running into cannons and zealots when you only have enough to deal with the cannons.
If your defenses are seemingly too little, you can always pull drone and drone drill their lings. Also, if you feel quite anal, get the evo chamber slightly early for a little sim city. Mass lings against 2+ sunks in generally way too inefficient, especially considering drone count is heavily in favor of the hydra zerg.
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On May 07 2012 15:58 gutshot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote:Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus. My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level. actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it.
I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well.
edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
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Peru1174 Posts
Awesome thread
Gonna practice all weekend maybe of I am lucky I can get to D again !!!
Lolololol
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On May 08 2012 13:49 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2012 15:58 gutshot wrote:On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote:Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus. My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level. actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it. I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well. edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general
zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
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On May 09 2012 00:12 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2012 13:49 dRaW wrote:On May 07 2012 15:58 gutshot wrote:On May 07 2012 15:42 Chef wrote:Watch Satanik's replays. Do you know who he is? Those are not even old replays, and they are against extremely good players, not even nooby iccupers but gosus. My games were at the C level, I didn't bother to keep playing because I got bored of iCCup. This guide would obviously not be sufficiently thorough enough to work vs B level players, but I know that Satanik is easily better than B and playing people better than B That's all the defence I will give for this, because I don't know if it would be good against the very top level of pros, but I know a lot of people don't like playing ZvZ, don't understand it very well, so it definitely works at better than low levels if low levels means D+ Every player in these replays is getting their 3rd, but it is not giving them an edge. I would advice the satanik replays as they are very high level. actually I would give Satanik more credit if the replays were old ones. recent B players are not the B players from 2~3 years ago, more like C players back then since all the koreans/good players left iCCup. some of the B/B+ players nowadays seems to have severe lack of knowledge/game sense (thats including me) and I find some ridiculous strategies still work vs them often enough. I'm not calling hydras ZvZ ridiculous, but given same skill level mutaling will always dominate hydras and the different variations from it. I agree, I have to completely throw the game to even lose in the B+ level for the past few seasons (hence multiple A- accounts with 9 to 20 losses) If these BOs worked in fish I would be more surprised as well. edit: although nice write-up / strategy in general zz one of the games in his replay pack was him beating you zvp pretty easily. He expressed discontent with the quality of players on iccup too, but that discontent was from players being too predictable.
That's probably because he was there last during the era of clans like ToT at its height. Neogamei (which I doubt most here even know about) and other servers were big back then, and progamers still played on iccup in droves. Now the people who during that era were the "still learning" B-/B players are now the B+/A-/A/A+ players. The lower ranks got harder to progress in, and the higher ranks got easier to attain.
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You can read exactly what he said here though. He was annoyed that it took too long to find your true rank, and that the system encouraged abuse. He was also unhappy that players were uninventive.
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EPT
