EPTWhat is the most efficient gateway/nexus ratio when you have proper saturation??? Yes I realize not every nexus will be accompanied by the same amount of mineral patches, but just a ball park estimate would help alot!!!
[H] SC2-->BW, Quick Question!
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Necron1993
United States3 Posts
What is the most efficient gateway/nexus ratio when you have proper saturation??? Yes I realize not every nexus will be accompanied by the same amount of mineral patches, but just a ball park estimate would help alot!!! | ||
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gu-val
59 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
In BW if you split your probes evenly between 4 bases you will have a lot more minerals than if you just keep it to 2 bases. In SC2 3 bases is all you need to get maximum income, but in BW you are better off having more even if you have less probes. So you will have more gateways per base, depending on how many bases you have. You can support up to 4 gateways on 1 base, about 8-12 on 2 bases, once on 4-5 bases against Terran you probably won't even be able to count how many gateways you have. What generally happens though is that on one base you won't have that many gateways because you want to expand. Here are some starter gateway heavy builds, pretty prevalent in the lower leagues, although they get less popular the higher you go. 3 gate goon in PvP. 10/15 gate goon range PvT Bulldog PvT 2 gate zealots PvZ But really just build as many gateways as you think you will need, when you get better macro you will find yourself making less gateways. | ||
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Necron1993
United States3 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
As for Gateways, generally 1 base can support up to 4 gateways, 2bases 8 gates, 3bases 12gates, etc. However, you generally want to expand as much as you can with Protoss, so normally you can safely expand to your natural off of 1-2 gates (PvP and PvT), and get your 3rd off 6 gates (PvZ and PvP, in PvT its 2-3 gates before third). Note in PvT you will probably normally only have 6-10 Gateways producing before your 4th/5th go online, but as your economy explodes and you hit population cap, you will be adding many more gateways, usually to around 20+ gateways. | ||
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TheNessman
United States4158 Posts
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blahman3344
United States2015 Posts
# of base: Max possible/reccomended 1 base: 4/2-3 2 bases: 8-9/7-8 and for 3 bases or more, just go by your own discretion. Usually with 3 bases you can support 12 or more (i think), but after 4 bases, it increases to like the high teens and 20+ For each matchup here's what I'd suggest is the following on gateway count for the mid/late game: PvT: Go all out. You can't win straight up vs. a Terran deathball, so you need to constantly reinforce with many many gateways (20+) PvZ/PvP: you don't need nearly as many gateways as PvT, but it still needs to be pretty high (for PvP, try to match your opponents gateway count. For PvZ, idk exact numbers, but try to have more gateways than he does hatcheries.) | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On September 25 2011 02:06 Necron1993 wrote: Thank you all very much, and yes I have noted that there is quite more expanding needed in BW to have a competative economy and be able to remass your army appropriately Damn I miss that. I spent the day losing to 1 base all ins in SC2 T_T. I miss the days were Mech was actually worth something in TvP. Good to see that BW isn't dead. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10230 Posts
PvT: Go BeSt style (AKA get like 10000000 gates and hope to overrun your opponent) PvP: Try to match your opponents and then some. PvZ: More than hatches. I'd say try to keep about 3 more gates to hatcheries, just so he can't just stream units down your throat. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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Cambium
United States16368 Posts
When you have your 2nd Nexus, you are technically in the mid-game, and your infrastructure should be relatively set up, so at this point, you can support more Gates, up to 8 or 9 if you don't want to develop a late game. 6 or 7 if you want to continue developing. When you have three or more bases, if you don't have a maxed out army, you can have ~3-4 Gates per running base. By the time you are maxed, you no longer need to keep on producing units nor making pylons, so you will have a ton of deposited resources, and you should invest these into more gateways, spread out over different bases, so that you can replenish your units quickly when you lose them. | ||
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
In early-mid game, when you're still making probes, teching, and trying to expand safely, it's fairly optimal to go 2-gateways per Nexus. You can more or less continue to make units and at the same time tech and make probes. And it's generally enough to hold off rush builds. Of course, your offensive potential is limited this way, so opponents who are greedy will have an advantage over you. But it's "safe". If at any time you feel you do not wish to expand or tech, that's when you can add more gateways. Assuming you've achieved good probe saturation, you can possibly support 4 or more gateways per base. But this is based on the assumption that you're not making more probes nor are you teching. So all your resources go to macroing up your army. And if you ever get close to 200/200, you can add even more gateways to replenish your army faster. Location of your gateways depends on the matchup. In pvp and pvz, your army generally works best together. So concentrated gates is best. But in PvT, concentrated protoss ball melt to tank fire, so it's best to have gateways outside the main(sometimes a lot) so you don't lose to tanks seiging up your natural. It's also a good idea to keep a gateway at each expansion late. Make a couple of DTs to hold off harass. Edit: One more thing. Goons are like stalkers in that they're quite expensive and you need to really hold on to them. So for optimal macro, you should make a control group or 2 of goons and try to keep them alive. Then you can just make lots of zealots the rest of the way. | ||
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Garaman
United States556 Posts
1 fully saturated base can support 2gate into robo or templar archive, or 3-4 gate with pure gateway units ur main + nat, you can support 6 gateways with like a stargate or two for arbiters and what not. if you want carriers, i say 4 gate + 2 stargate for carriers... but you can support 7ish gateway for pure ground army + like robo bay for support units if you take a mineral only, i would say 10-11 gateways, maybe more depending on your mineral situation. if you took another main, i say 12-14 gateway. but i'm just a person who enjoys playing BW, and is just from my experiences in trying to keep my mineral count down. it is nice to have 8 gateways though on your main + nat. it is so easy to macro when u accidently let your minerals stock up (1200mineral + 400gas for 8 goons, or like 800 min for zealots) | ||
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XsebT
Denmark2980 Posts
Probe saturation Are you still producing probes? Are you teching? Are you expoing? If you're going for hardcore unit production (like a pvz hanbang timing) you can support 4 gateways/base with full saturation. No probe production, no further teching, no expoing. Edit: maybe +1 gateway/base depending on your templar production. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
Always and only expand before building up for a timing attack, and when moving out during the attack, when you're the strongest. Best is a great example of this mindset. He follows complex build orders in PvT, starting out with a 3 base arbiter push, and then follows it up with a timing push on 5-6 bases. Expansion timings are not about Gateway numbers, probes, or how long the game have been going on, it's all about when you want to push out with your next attack. If you're doing a 4 base push, you can take the expansion earlier than if you're going for a 5 base push, because since you're doing a earlier attack, you can survive a potential attack on a lesser gateway count. I think this is one of the reasons why Zerg seems to be the easiest race to master. Zerg as a race is built with timing attacks in mind, and this makes them very flexible when it comes to endgame timing attacks. | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
Depends on the match up and also the tech/upgrades you are doing. | ||
Falling
Canada11369 Posts
On September 25 2011 06:44 ArvickHero wrote: Mineral line saturation is about 2.5x the number of mineral patches. In PvT you must be wary to not over-make on probes, as it will cut into your maxed out army, and in PvZ and PvP there are usually several different points where you need to cut probes in order to hit some timings. I never really thought about that for PvT as I hardly ever cut probes. How much is too many probes in PvT? | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
This I find different from say Stork, who prefer to always expand off of minimal gateways when possible, or Kal, who seems to always oversaturate his mineral lines. On September 26 2011 17:04 Falling wrote: I never really thought about that for PvT as I hardly ever cut probes. How much is too many probes in PvT? I don't cut probes either. Well I do but I'm not exactly scientific about it. But from what I've seen of Stork, he seems to maintain enough probes for 3 saturated bases. Usually when he gets his 4th up, I generally see either the main with very few probes or undersaturation in general. Although Stork did say in an interview that when he goes carriers he make a ton of probes. Makes sense, since carrier builds generally mean less bases while very mineral intensive. | ||
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
On September 26 2011 18:11 baubo wrote: It's weird people want him to copy Best. Best to me seems to have a very precise build: Tech to arbiters while making about 1-2 control groups of dragoons(from what I can see), then mass gateways into mass zealot reinforcements for push break. Obviously I don't know the details, but his build seems to be geared towards a certain army size at a certain point. Similar to terran's 2-1 push. Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:03 ninini wrote: Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works. Are you sure you're not thinking of Jangbi instead of Stork? Stork doesn't harass to kill stuff. Stork harasses in PvT is of the same philosophy as Savior's patented muta harass in ZvT. In that his harass is for delaying and "poking around" more than anything else. PvT is suppose to be reactionary from the protoss perspective. You're suppose to add gateways in response to terran adding factories. You macro when terran's pushing, and expanding when terran's turtling. Turning PvT to a science is just the wrong way to play the game. Best can do it because he's a progamer and he understand the intricacies. But IMO it's still the wrong style because you don't feel for the flow. At its core, PvT is about reacting to terran play. And at least at my level, my observers tend to not get killed very fast and generally give me enough of a maphack. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On September 27 2011 13:09 baubo wrote: Are you sure you're not thinking of Jangbi instead of Stork? Stork doesn't harass to kill stuff. Stork harasses in PvT is of the same philosophy as Savior's patented muta harass in ZvT. In that his harass is for delaying and "poking around" more than anything else. PvT is suppose to be reactionary from the protoss perspective. You're suppose to add gateways in response to terran adding factories. You macro when terran's pushing, and expanding when terran's turtling. Turning PvT to a science is just the wrong way to play the game. Best can do it because he's a progamer and he understand the intricacies. But IMO it's still the wrong style because you don't feel for the flow. At its core, PvT is about reacting to terran play. And at least at my level, my observers tend to not get killed very fast and generally give me enough of a maphack. There are heaps of Stork games where he has just finished the game with harass, they are less to do with delaying the opponent, and more to do ridiculous amounts of economic damage. Storks PvT games are a lot shorter than anyone else's, he is very aggressive with his harass and if he doesn't win the game outright with reavers, he will with his dragoon micro shortly afterwards. His timings and early game is one of the strongest, if not the strongest, which is why he has a winning record against the TBLS who constantly try to play macro games against him. Terran plays reactive to both Z and P most of the time. Even if P goes 12 nexus, Terran has to react to it one way or another. The only time P has to react to T really is against cheese. On September 26 2011 10:54 ninini wrote: I think expansion timings should be adjusted according to your timing attack timings. Always and only expand before building up for a timing attack, and when moving out during the attack, when you're the strongest. Best is a great example of this mindset. He follows complex build orders in PvT, starting out with a 3 base arbiter push, and then follows it up with a timing push on 5-6 bases. Expansion timings are not about Gateway numbers, probes, or how long the game have been going on, it's all about when you want to push out with your next attack. If you're doing a 4 base push, you can take the expansion earlier than if you're going for a 5 base push, because since you're doing a earlier attack, you can survive a potential attack on a lesser gateway count. I think this is one of the reasons why Zerg seems to be the easiest race to master. Zerg as a race is built with timing attacks in mind, and this makes them very flexible when it comes to endgame timing attacks. Zerg is the easiest race to master? I'm a random player and I find ZvP to be the hardest matchup by far. You have to micro mutas to snipe templar, scourge to snipe corsair, dodge storms, snipe observers, burrow lurkers, micro defilers, and its so easy to just lose to 1a2a3a at any stage of the game. The amount of very precise multitasking and decision making you have to do is ridiculous. On September 26 2011 13:25 writer22816 wrote: A progamer who is going all out unit production have about 3 Gateways per saturated base. Adjust according to your macro ability. What? Even with perfect macro, on 6 bases and 18 gateways you would be floating a ton of money. | ||
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Weimar
Austria7 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On September 27 2011 19:45 Weimar wrote: Hey, someone said, that the perfect saturation for one base would be 2.5 times the mineral patches. Is this number the same for every race (if not whats the perfect number for zerg) ? How can I see how many workers I use at one base (since I can only select 11 units at a time)? You will have to count them, eventually you will just look at the mining line and get a feeling if thats undersaturated/oversaturated. I still need to acquire this skill :/ | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On September 27 2011 19:45 Weimar wrote: Hey, someone said, that the perfect saturation for one base would be 2.5 times the mineral patches. Is this number the same for every race (if not whats the perfect number for zerg) ? How can I see how many workers I use at one base (since I can only select 11 units at a time)? Usually you just don't, you should know how many workers you have in the early game as a part of your build order, and in the mid and lategames you will have varying degrees of under or oversaturation that you can't really help due to heavy dependency on your expansion timings. Ultimately it just comes down to doing a visual check to get a feel for how saturated the mineral line is, and experience. While optimal worker saturation is pretty much the same for each race, realistically they will have very different worker saturations in practice. Zerg is the most obvious one, your worker saturation in general will vary from game to game just due to how much droning you can get away with, but as a rule all your bases will always be undersaturated because standard zerg play always relies on having lots of hatches, being ahead on expos and using the extra mining rate due to undersaturation as a way to have increased income. Protoss will usually be just saturated, or slightly undersaturated versus terrans, and just saturated or slightly oversaturated vs zergs and protoss. Terran in general will tend to be oversaturated so that they have some scvs to transfer on to a new expo since they tend to be the slowest expoers. | ||
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
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Bisu-Fan
Russian Federation3336 Posts
On September 27 2011 03:03 ninini wrote: Best have PvT down to a science, so I think he's the one to copy in terms of builds. Stork relies much more on harass, although not as much as some players. Best have better management than Stork and his army engagement skills, ie "1a2a3a skills" are equal. Stork have better game sense and individual unit micro, but that's just two more reasons why you shouldn't try to follow Stork's builds. A player with really good game sense will just confuse you, and a player with really good micro will give you unrealistic expectations. Best is efficient and rigid. He's the perfect player to study if you want to understand how PvT works. This is true to a sense... Best has one of the best engagement decisions... Although sometimes it's just fail decisions... Most of the time, he makes perfect decisions when and where to attack to get the best out of each push... After a push, his monster macro with ~20 gates allows him to replenish quickly... But someone pointed out his zealot movements to absorb splash and minimize damage to his forces~ and when he uses magic units, he's a beast~ | ||
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Necron1993
United States3 Posts
and personally I am enjoying BW more than SC2, it feels like the unit composition is so much more established; thank you all again for picking up this thread!!! | ||
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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lizzard_warish
589 Posts
On September 24 2011 19:26 sluggaslamoo wrote: What? You cant support 12 gateways on two base unless you have horrible macro. it's between 6-8, really the question being if you just want consistent troop production with enough extra resources for an expansion or tech, or just pure troops. Depends on how many probes you have and how many bases. In BW if you split your probes evenly between 4 bases you will have a lot more minerals than if you just keep it to 2 bases. In SC2 3 bases is all you need to get maximum income, but in BW you are better off having more even if you have less probes. So you will have more gateways per base, depending on how many bases you have. You can support up to 4 gateways on 1 base, about 8-12 on 2 bases, once on 4-5 bases against Terran you probably won't even be able to count how many gateways you have. What generally happens though is that on one base you won't have that many gateways because you want to expand. Here are some starter gateway heavy builds, pretty prevalent in the lower leagues, although they get less popular the higher you go. 3 gate goon in PvP. 10/15 gate goon range PvT Bulldog PvT 2 gate zealots PvZ But really just build as many gateways as you think you will need, when you get better macro you will find yourself making less gateways. | ||
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WarSame
Canada1950 Posts
On September 28 2011 10:19 Bisu-Fan wrote: Wow.. I don't have any advice for you because I'm a noob.. I'm an avid fan of BW though, so I'll say this: I love you for giving SC:BW a chance... So many people I meet right now just shrug BW after seeing the graphics (which in my opinion are beautiful) but you sir, are awesome~ I bet you he plays SCII on low graphics. I do, and there literally is very little difference, and BW looks better in some ways. | ||
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