|
Why Mutalisk is small, Corsair is medium and Scout has no armor/speed is a balance issue.
If you would change Mutalisk to medium/large, Zerg race would be broken by sair, goon, turret, valk, wrait, gol, hydras.
If you would change Corsair to small, Zergs would have issues (they still have issues if you watch Bisu play), changing to large would make an easier time for hydras to deflect sairs, they would die like paper planes.
If you would change Scout to medium/small there would be no reason for Protoss to go goons. Scout micro would dominate goon, sair, gol, turret, hydra.
So why is Corsair medium? Probably to compensate that it can only attack air and it needed to be somewhat good vs its counterpart Scout in PvP air battles. Putting more HP/shield/armor didnt make sense against all other races.
To be fair its only Zergs who have issues atm with many sairs running around killing your lords. For a pro getting it changed to Large wouldnt change that much, you would be more careful not to get shot by hydras enmasse.
The common fix vs a mass sair player is to get plague which isnt affected by unit size to be fully effective. Defiler is the most effective path to victory anyway so its not a sidetrack.
As a funny thought experiment, what would happen if Corsair were small and 500/500 hp/shield vs T/P. Would it change the meta? Note that Bonyth already started using sairs in his build against T. But what about PvP? Would it ever see light for the web ability alone? Im leaning towards no.
|
Don't think scouts would always be chosen over dragoons if their armor type was made to medium (if it was made small then definetly). Dragoons are more efficient health per mineral/gas and have better ground dps. It would be funny though to see the stove stratagy all of a sudden become popular because missile turrets cannot kill them as effectivly. Still though, do not really need scouts in multiplayer, the meta is more fun with dragoons anyhow. Was just curious why blizzard balanced them that way.
|
Disruption web to counter hydra busts? Is that fast enough?
|
Even Dweb at Cybernetics won't save P vs hydra busts.
|
actually i think if dweb was available at cybernetics core that would be broken. broken as in you would actually flip the pvz matchup statistic.
|
Think about it though, you basically mass sairs, tech to dweb and hold off any muta push or hydra bust just by casting it where they stand to pick off the gateway/forge. You mass zealots and get them under the dweb. Try to let some escape, go ovie hunting and you slowly get up to templar tech. You could hold a third base indefinitely if you block the ramp with zealots and just park some sairs there for defensive dwebs. I just don't know the timings out of my head for it to be viable lol
|
you cant get dweb in time to block a hydra bust. youd either die trying or invest in so many cannons to buy time that you would be so far behind in other tech and economy anyway
|
|
|
Also, Fleet Beacon is literally the most expensive building in the game at 300/200 and Dweb is 200/200, which is a massive investment even in the midgame.
|
Have you guys ever played the game? Your first sair comes out right as 3hh hits...
|
|
|
|
|
What are the economic equivalent build for ZvT?
|
|
|
Didn't watch. Probably hold down shift when issuing the command
|
Select idle and active workers together, then hold shift while ordering them all to mine. This works on mineral patches, I can't remember if it works the same with gas. Enjoy the QoL 
|
On April 05 2018 02:53 Bakuryu wrote:
understanding how the matchup play out is really good.
having a game plan until lategame is really good.
adjusting to your enemy based on situation is really good.
following build orders is really good.
there always seemed to be a misconception about build orders among the newcomers and i never liked how Day9 addressed that in the vods i remember from him.
following BOs is not bad. "Strictly" following a BO in a wrong situation is bad. following BOs does not mean that you dont react to your opponent.
a (good) build order is a highly optimized way to play the game in certain situations. This optimization will lead to specific timings (like 10s attack timing window) which you can only hit using that build order.
build orders enable you repeatability on your side, making it way easier to learn the required actions because they "always" happen at the exact same time.
If the current executed build order (FFE +1 corsair +1 2 gate speedzeal) is up against something that needs adjustment (3 hatch hydra), you can play a build order variation (add cannons while still going corsair first) or you change your build order completely (responding with +1 4 gate speedzeal).
out of all the races/matchups, Zerg players in ZvP are the people most lacking good build orders, or build orders at all.(around C/C+ level). those zergs are lacking lots of timings and are somehow producing out of 4-5 hatches, which is still enough to keep up with similar skill level protoss player, because those protoss players are also lacking macro/timings beyond the 1st attack.
the key point about all of this is Timings.
you can have extremly good macro and extremly good micro, but if you have no timing you will always be fighting against more units of the enemy than normal which will always give you unfavorable battles.
And especially as T/P against Z, not hitting Timings is even more brutal, as Z can easily get more drones/units quickly.
in PvZ if your attack is late by "only" 14 seconds, zerg (5 hatch hydra) will have 5 more larva to make units and he will have lets say 20 hydras instead of 15 hydras. the difference is so big, that zerg would not need to add 1 sunken per entrance, and instead can use this money for faster 6th hatch while easily defending your attack.
(this was mostly attack Timings, but it also applies to defensive Timings, where you get the defense right when you need it and not, for example, randomly building cannons too early in fear of vulture harass)
I'm looking for a general comparative guide for building times, this is the closest comment related to the subject that I could find.
Timings are important, but I noticed something else. I haven't seen much discussion as to how fast buildings and units can be made, but Protoss seems to have a general early game advantage in comparison to Zerg. Zerg larva regeneration time is 14 seconds in the fastest game speed. Protoss Gateways build dragoons every 31 seconds. That is 4.5 spawns per hatchery per minute. Considering it is a 350 mineral building, it is really slower than a Protoss Gateway. Gateway makes every zealot even faster by 1.25x. So in total a single Protoss Gateway can reach the same supply a hatchery makes until lair and every gateway is cheaper than a hatchery by 200 minerals, at less than half the cost and time it takes to build one.
|
I have some more facts. A maxed out expansion has enough capacity to fulfill 5 Gateways making Zealots, but only 2 Hatcheries making Hydralisks if we benchmark at 1200 minerals, 296 Vespene Gas best assumption. The Vespene Gas production rate limits the third Hatchery from continuously spawning Hydralisks in a single base.
As I told previously, 1 Gateway has 2x Dragoon and 2.4x faster Zealot production rate supply wise, a single Protoss expansion can run 5 of these. That makes 11 Zealots vs 8 Hydralisks every minute.
|
United States10331 Posts
On November 24 2023 06:33 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 02:53 Bakuryu wrote:
understanding how the matchup play out is really good.
having a game plan until lategame is really good.
adjusting to your enemy based on situation is really good.
following build orders is really good.
there always seemed to be a misconception about build orders among the newcomers and i never liked how Day9 addressed that in the vods i remember from him.
following BOs is not bad. "Strictly" following a BO in a wrong situation is bad. following BOs does not mean that you dont react to your opponent.
a (good) build order is a highly optimized way to play the game in certain situations. This optimization will lead to specific timings (like 10s attack timing window) which you can only hit using that build order.
build orders enable you repeatability on your side, making it way easier to learn the required actions because they "always" happen at the exact same time.
If the current executed build order (FFE +1 corsair +1 2 gate speedzeal) is up against something that needs adjustment (3 hatch hydra), you can play a build order variation (add cannons while still going corsair first) or you change your build order completely (responding with +1 4 gate speedzeal).
out of all the races/matchups, Zerg players in ZvP are the people most lacking good build orders, or build orders at all.(around C/C+ level). those zergs are lacking lots of timings and are somehow producing out of 4-5 hatches, which is still enough to keep up with similar skill level protoss player, because those protoss players are also lacking macro/timings beyond the 1st attack.
the key point about all of this is Timings.
you can have extremly good macro and extremly good micro, but if you have no timing you will always be fighting against more units of the enemy than normal which will always give you unfavorable battles.
And especially as T/P against Z, not hitting Timings is even more brutal, as Z can easily get more drones/units quickly.
in PvZ if your attack is late by "only" 14 seconds, zerg (5 hatch hydra) will have 5 more larva to make units and he will have lets say 20 hydras instead of 15 hydras. the difference is so big, that zerg would not need to add 1 sunken per entrance, and instead can use this money for faster 6th hatch while easily defending your attack.
(this was mostly attack Timings, but it also applies to defensive Timings, where you get the defense right when you need it and not, for example, randomly building cannons too early in fear of vulture harass)
I'm looking for a general comparative guide for building times, this is the closest comment related to the subject that I could find. Timings are important, but I noticed something else. I haven't seen much discussion as to how fast buildings and units can be made, but Protoss seems to have a general early game advantage in comparison to Zerg. Zerg larva regeneration time is 14 seconds in the fastest game speed. Protoss Gateways build dragoons every 31 seconds. That is 4.5 spawns per hatchery per minute. Considering it is a 350 mineral building, it is really slower than a Protoss Gateway. Gateway makes every zealot even faster by 1.25x. So in total a single Protoss Gateway can reach the same supply a hatchery makes until lair and every gateway is cheaper than a hatchery by 200 minerals, at less than half the cost and time it takes to build one.
Protoss absolutely does not have early game advantage vs zerg. They are scared playing against potential hydra bust and must play safe until +1 and legs finish for zealots.
|
On November 28 2023 05:52 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2023 06:33 mtcn77 wrote:On April 05 2018 02:53 Bakuryu wrote:
understanding how the matchup play out is really good.
having a game plan until lategame is really good.
adjusting to your enemy based on situation is really good.
following build orders is really good.
there always seemed to be a misconception about build orders among the newcomers and i never liked how Day9 addressed that in the vods i remember from him.
following BOs is not bad. "Strictly" following a BO in a wrong situation is bad. following BOs does not mean that you dont react to your opponent.
a (good) build order is a highly optimized way to play the game in certain situations. This optimization will lead to specific timings (like 10s attack timing window) which you can only hit using that build order.
build orders enable you repeatability on your side, making it way easier to learn the required actions because they "always" happen at the exact same time.
If the current executed build order (FFE +1 corsair +1 2 gate speedzeal) is up against something that needs adjustment (3 hatch hydra), you can play a build order variation (add cannons while still going corsair first) or you change your build order completely (responding with +1 4 gate speedzeal).
out of all the races/matchups, Zerg players in ZvP are the people most lacking good build orders, or build orders at all.(around C/C+ level). those zergs are lacking lots of timings and are somehow producing out of 4-5 hatches, which is still enough to keep up with similar skill level protoss player, because those protoss players are also lacking macro/timings beyond the 1st attack.
the key point about all of this is Timings.
you can have extremly good macro and extremly good micro, but if you have no timing you will always be fighting against more units of the enemy than normal which will always give you unfavorable battles.
And especially as T/P against Z, not hitting Timings is even more brutal, as Z can easily get more drones/units quickly.
in PvZ if your attack is late by "only" 14 seconds, zerg (5 hatch hydra) will have 5 more larva to make units and he will have lets say 20 hydras instead of 15 hydras. the difference is so big, that zerg would not need to add 1 sunken per entrance, and instead can use this money for faster 6th hatch while easily defending your attack.
(this was mostly attack Timings, but it also applies to defensive Timings, where you get the defense right when you need it and not, for example, randomly building cannons too early in fear of vulture harass)
I'm looking for a general comparative guide for building times, this is the closest comment related to the subject that I could find. Timings are important, but I noticed something else. I haven't seen much discussion as to how fast buildings and units can be made, but Protoss seems to have a general early game advantage in comparison to Zerg. Zerg larva regeneration time is 14 seconds in the fastest game speed. Protoss Gateways build dragoons every 31 seconds. That is 4.5 spawns per hatchery per minute. Considering it is a 350 mineral building, it is really slower than a Protoss Gateway. Gateway makes every zealot even faster by 1.25x. So in total a single Protoss Gateway can reach the same supply a hatchery makes until lair and every gateway is cheaper than a hatchery by 200 minerals, at less than half the cost and time it takes to build one. Protoss absolutely does not have early game advantage vs zerg. They are scared playing against potential hydra bust and must play safe until +1 and legs finish for zealots.
That is what I'm struggling with. Zerg should not be able to macro up against a decent Protoss. The Hatchery is even slower than a Nexus and Protoss has a seperate building the Gateway that has equal production rate to a Hatchery and you can build two at a time for the same cost. That is like having one more Hatchery since one is busy making drones. Two in fact, I calculated the timing the other day: you need to have a 2 Hatchery build to make 20 drones at the same time the protoss does it, 4:12. 1 Hatchery time is 5:08, 3 Hatchery time is 3:48. You can alternate 20 drones for 20 zerglings, or hydralisks, but I don't think the game will end before 20 larva unit spawns.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
