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On December 17 2023 14:09 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2023 15:03 iopq wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 11 2023 04:52 fearthequeen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2023 21:36 iopq wrote:
I saw that pros go 12 hatch, then later pool, then 12 gas and upgrade lair vs. Terran
But when I tried this build I got my Lair started at 3:01 which meant it popped before 4:05 where I would get another larva. I was literally short one larva (Lair morph triggers the larva timer). How do people deal with this? Just make 12 gas later than 50 minerals?
Why even go 12 hatch anyway?
I propose 11 hatch which slows you down by a second on the Lair, but speed up your 2nd hatchery larvae by like 4 seconds.
So my proposed build is something like this:
11 hatch
11 pool
12 gas
17 overlord
18 hatch
zergling speed
the extra fast larva at the expansion will get you more mining time from a drone, and delaying your lair timing to 4:05 lets you first spawn a larva, then immediately spawn a second one
why do people do 12 hatch anyway? You realize you don't have to make lair exactly when you have 100 gas right? I suggest you watch more pro ZvT. They are very often delaying making lair even by 2-3 seconds after they have 150/100 to hit a bonus larva lair timing. If you really want to refine it so you have 100 gas exactly @ bonus larva timing, then yes you can just delay making the extractor a bit, or send drones a little slower to mine gas. As for the reason for 12/12/12, its mostly used to allow making 3rd hatch while Lair is building (aka 2.5 hatch) and still afford spire when Lair finishes. Now you have a 7 muta timing instead of a 6 muta timing. You can see I also throw down a 2.5 hatch before researching speed. 12/12/12 can go 3:02 Lair > speed with next 100 gas, then 3rd hatch in main. 3rd hatch will still be done before Spire if you execute it well. I'm not saying your build is necessarily bad, but there are always tradeoffs.
3:02 lair is bad because you don't get an extra larva when Lair pops
generally you want to click up at 3:05ish or you will be missing a drone after 4 minutes which is a difference of 60 minerals per minute
each larva is 14.x seconds so after you split it's generally the first larva pop is at 15 seconds (since you split before making a drone), then every ~58 seconds you get 4 larva
0:59
1:57
2:55
3:53
lair makes a larva pop and resets the larva timer, taking 63 seconds to complete
the best time to complete Lair is 3:54 (aggressive 2 hatch clicking up at 2:51) or 14.5 seconds later at 4:08.5 (2.5 hatch timing at 3:05.5)
if you want to get a faster lair, you should either click up on your second hatchery at the perfect timing or get a little larva blocked - for example, if you 9 overlord 9 hatch your larva gets blocked for 4 seconds, so if you click up at 2:55 for a two hatch muta it's still perfect for larva, but more economical
by the way, the 12 hatch 13 pool 13 hatch 12 gas build is perfectly timed to click up at 3:34 which is the best time to get that extra larva which is the latest you should get Lair. This build gets you two larva more than going 2.5 hatch muta because the third hatchery goes down a little faster, but you lose 27 seconds on the muta timing and your hatcheries sit there for a while waiting for spire to pop. It's probably better to click up at 3:20 by throwing down gas before third hatch, making only 7 mutas and +1, but getting to 9 muta at the same timing. Let's call this 2.75 lair, I think it's more optimal for back base maps than full 3 hatch muta since you just get everything out faster at a small delay (3-4 seconds) to your third hatchery. You get that back because you didn't float the larva waiting for Spire to finish so it's just better
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With 9 ov, 9 hatch, 11 pool 10 gas
first extra larva at 15.5, hit 3 larva at 1:27 and make a drone at 1:31 and new larva pops at 1:45
pool down at 2:02, gas started at 2:08, lair at 2:59, third hatch at 3:37, lair pops at 4:02 but my larva spawned at 3:54 so I lost 8 seconds of larva so this build is not optimized
with 12 hatch 12 pool
1:40 second hatch no block (already 9 second delay compared with earlier drone count)
2:07 pool 2:13 gas (slower) 3:03 click up, but I could have done 3:02 if I had pre-ordered the drones to gas before it was complete, 3rd hatch goes down at 3:30
actually it works out pretty well, I get a larva at 4:05 and Lair pops at 4:06 so my small delay on the gas made it pop in time
the 3:02 Lair is the time when you can mess it up and have the extra larva not spawn so it's better to make sure you're not doing it too perfectly
with 12 pool it's like a 2:05 second hatch, but 3:37 Lair (2:34 upgrade) which is also right before that larva pops so it's a good build - gives up 25 seconds of larva production (2 larva) and third hatch timing as well to hit the Terran with mutas a full 30 seconds earlier
11 hatch 10 pool/gas is 1:36 hatch 2:02 pool + gas 2:55 click up, 3rd hatch at like 3:32, but the Lair timing is too slow to get the extra larva so it's better to do
11/12/12 3:49 larva 4:03 larva
when I clicked up at 2:57 it was way too early, 3:34 third hatch was not bad though so the 12/12 timing is definitely one where you can mess it up by doing it TOO fast
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On December 17 2023 19:40 iopq wrote:
With 9 ov, 9 hatch, 11 pool 10 gas
first extra larva at 15.5, hit 3 larva at 1:27 and make a drone at 1:31 and new larva pops at 1:45
pool down at 2:02, gas started at 2:08, lair at 2:59, third hatch at 3:37, lair pops at 4:02 but my larva spawned at 3:54 so I lost 8 seconds of larva so this build is not optimized
I cannot see any downside to that.
One question, how many units have you made by 4 minute point in the game? If larva period is 14 seconds you should have 17 spawns in the main hatchery, however 19 if larvae replenish in 12.6 seconds.
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9 hatch 1:17
larvae blocked at 1:12-1:21
9 ov
9 gas
9 pool <- too late to be optimal already
so for a faster build let's try
10 hatch 1:22 timing
1:27-1:31 block (waiting for 100 minerals)
9 ov
9 gas
9 pool <- too late
11 hatch (double trick)
1:30 2nd hatch
10 ov
9 gas + pool <- too late
9 ov
11 hatch at 1:35
10 gas + pool
1:54 to 2:04 block
2:51 lair (finishes at 3:54 but with 10 seconds block it's the wrong timing)
8 hatch 1:13 hatch
9 gas + pool
1:13-1:18 block
block at 1:48-1:59
9 overlord
make drone at the main hatch
10 lair 2:44
3:38 larva spawn
3:47 lair pop but it's a ridiculous build because you get larva blocked when you put down spire
let's try
8 hatch
extractor trick
10 gas + pool
2:02-2:05 additional block
9 overlord
11 lair at 2:50
3:46 larva pop but 3:53 lair so it's just okay, we're really just matching 11 hatch 10 gas/pool
so I can find no build that perfectly synchronizes with the Lair timing and larva timing before 3:03 and after 2:34, it's kind of a macro dead zone because when you try to hit faster Lair you will delay your larva
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the best match for a fast lair and larva popping I've found:
9 hatch (7 second larva block 1:13-1:20)
extractor trick
gas + pool
1:46-2:00 block
ov
2:28-2:33 block
11 lair 2:48 timing
larva pops 3:45, lair pops 3:51
if hatch goes down at 1:17 being blocked for 7, then 14, then 5 seconds is equivalent to just putting down the 12 hatch (1:43) but you get a faster 2:48 lair timing - it's hardly worth the effort though since you give up the third hatchery just to cut 5 seconds off your lair
so all of these timings are basically bad, but we can see if we can find any that give you more larva than a 3:03 lair and getting an in base third hatch
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Does anyone know the exact mechanic behind units stopping when doing an attack & following a unit. (mostly probe/scv scout)
I see progamers chase probes/scv's with lings and spamming right click on the worker scout, attack them and keep moving, but my lings in game always 'bug out' and stop. I have to press stop or hold on them to get them to move againm
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On January 13 2024 22:58 Comedy wrote:
Does anyone know the exact mechanic behind units stopping when doing an attack & following a unit. (mostly probe/scv scout)
I see progamers chase probes/scv's with lings and spamming right click on the worker scout, attack them and keep moving, but my lings in game always 'bug out' and stop. I have to press stop or hold on them to get them to move againm
https://www.starcraftai.com/wiki/Tricks,_Glitches_and_Exploits#Goon_Stop
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Dominican Republic610 Posts
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore?
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On January 14 2024 17:32 tankgirl wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2024 22:58 Comedy wrote:
Does anyone know the exact mechanic behind units stopping when doing an attack & following a unit. (mostly probe/scv scout)
I see progamers chase probes/scv's with lings and spamming right click on the worker scout, attack them and keep moving, but my lings in game always 'bug out' and stop. I have to press stop or hold on them to get them to move againm https://www.starcraftai.com/wiki/Tricks,_Glitches_and_Exploits#Goon_Stop
Thats wrong though. It does react to other commands but not in the same direction.
The bug occurs when you do a hasty move command in the middle of the attack animation. I dont know which frame exactly but im sure i could replicate it and the bug isnt fixed.
Solution is to let your unit (marine/goon) shoot first then do the move command, instead of in the middle of the animation.
Edit: Units with long attack animations are the ones who can get stuck.
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On January 13 2024 22:58 Comedy wrote:
Does anyone know the exact mechanic behind units stopping when doing an attack & following a unit. (mostly probe/scv scout)
I see progamers chase probes/scv's with lings and spamming right click on the worker scout, attack them and keep moving, but my lings in game always 'bug out' and stop. I have to press stop or hold on them to get them to move againm
Read above post. Ling has a long attack animation and you rightclick in the middle of it thinking if ure fast enough there will be no idle gap. This is why it gets stuck. Let attack animation finish then rightclick.
This doesnt happen with workers because they have no attack animation (or well scvs do but ive never seen an scv get stuck).
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On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore?
Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps?
Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters
Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish.
I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time.
Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage?
For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again?
Or are there other triggers?
Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only.
I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem.
Thanks~
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I think it might be due to Snow. Meta switches occur by individual eras and Snow is the PvT king right now. Also, I saw a recent reaver rush that pushed it into the limelight, so the Snow style fills both PvT & PvZ slots. Arbiter drop from meta might be due to that.
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On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~
pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want.
you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list.
eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units
the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth.
as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight.
no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game
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On January 29 2024 13:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~ pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want. you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list. eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth. as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight. no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game
Thanks for the very detailed reply! I indeed watch mostly stork and best, because bisu switches screen too fast ^^
Yes for the 3 mu army movement, I meant 3 distinct videos with the basics, khala style, but as you say it probably varies a lot by build/map/opponent build.
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On January 29 2024 13:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~ pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want. you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list. eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth. as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight. no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game
Great response IMO. Only a few notes:
1. I literally did not believe that Baal is spending 10-20s on a single screen. That only makes sense at the 4 worker start to make sure your early eco is maximally efficient. I thought he must have been saying ms (microseconds) which is really fast. Even as an amateur BW player who hit A in RM, both of these times are ludicrous to me. Based on Baal's response, it seems he really meant 10-20 seconds which you accurately pointed out is ridiculously slow even for the amateur level nowadays.
2. Something I think you overlooked in your message can be broken down into 3 parts:
A. Cycling. Pros and high level amateurs have a "macro" (idea, not actual macro in-game) cycle. Army - base - eco, rinse repeat. You kinda alluded to this in your example and to be fair you limited yourself to that one example so I get why this is not "overlooking" something, but I think it is more important to address than any specific example. By grouping your commands in a natural way, like 1a2a3a4a 55 base management f2 f3 f4 eco management you create a universal pattern of "cycling" your hotkeys and pros do this all the time. The famous video of Bisu busting a Terran on bottom right and shoving a Probe macro cycle in there is a great example of this IMO. He didn't do it to be fancy, he just trained himself to do that cycle every ~20 in-game seconds or so (to be fair I forget the real number for worker production).
B. The actual way to achieve this as far as I know is to establish that pattern early, what we call "spam" APM in the early game is actually setting the "rhythm" for your play going forward. Bisu does 11 22 33 as he is checking his scouting Probe and his Nexus, for an amateur like me it is 00 99 because of the location of "B" and "P" on the keyboard with original hotkeys. Similar applies to late game where the "rhythm" is the speed you set for yourself to multitask.
C. In a similar vein but more explicitly, in MUs like PvP it is important to have your army moving to potentially create a better arc of engagement. The 1a2a3a4a I referenced above is more about holding your side of the map and creating a window of opportunity for yourself to address incoming threats effectively, so maybe this can be 2. A. II. point but this felt cleaner. This is, as you said, situational, but if a Protoss player finds themselves in an evenly matched scenario which is inevitable at all skill levels, having a spread formation for your army will allow you to create a better concave and by constantly moving, you make it more likely that you will get the better 200 vs. 200 engagement if the opponent attacks. Certain scenarios, like the one you describe with sending Zealots to Tanks, will naturally emerge; same applies to Lurker contain or map split busting, aggressive maneuvers when holding the numerical advantage, etc. But as a default movement pattern + in conjunction with cycling as mentioned above, the most common approach is to manually "patrol" your key areas of the map to keep the army moving and in a line that can be made into a concave IMO.
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On January 30 2024 05:48 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2024 13:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~ pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want. you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list. eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth. as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight. no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game Great response IMO. Only a few notes: 1. I literally did not believe that Baal is spending 10-20s on a single screen. That only makes sense at the 4 worker start to make sure your early eco is maximally efficient. I thought he must have been saying ms (microseconds) which is really fast. Even as an amateur BW player who hit A in RM, both of these times are ludicrous to me. Based on Baal's response, it seems he really meant 10-20 seconds which you accurately pointed out is ridiculously slow even for the amateur level nowadays. 2. Something I think you overlooked in your message can be broken down into 3 parts: A. Cycling. Pros and high level amateurs have a "macro" (idea, not actual macro in-game) cycle. Army - base - eco, rinse repeat. You kinda alluded to this in your example and to be fair you limited yourself to that one example so I get why this is not "overlooking" something, but I think it is more important to address than any specific example. By grouping your commands in a natural way, like 1a2a3a4a 55 base management f2 f3 f4 eco management you create a universal pattern of "cycling" your hotkeys and pros do this all the time. The famous video of Bisu busting a Terran on bottom right and shoving a Probe macro cycle in there is a great example of this IMO. He didn't do it to be fancy, he just trained himself to do that cycle every ~20 in-game seconds or so (to be fair I forget the real number for worker production). B. The actual way to achieve this as far as I know is to establish that pattern early, what we call "spam" APM in the early game is actually setting the "rhythm" for your play going forward. Bisu does 11 22 33 as he is checking his scouting Probe and his Nexus, for an amateur like me it is 00 99 because of the location of "B" and "P" on the keyboard with original hotkeys. Similar applies to late game where the "rhythm" is the speed you set for yourself to multitask. C. In a similar vein but more explicitly, in MUs like PvP it is important to have your army moving to potentially create a better arc of engagement. The 1a2a3a4a I referenced above is more about holding your side of the map and creating a window of opportunity for yourself to address incoming threats effectively, so maybe this can be 2. A. II. point but this felt cleaner. This is, as you said, situational, but if a Protoss player finds themselves in an evenly matched scenario which is inevitable at all skill levels, having a spread formation for your army will allow you to create a better concave and by constantly moving, you make it more likely that you will get the better 200 vs. 200 engagement if the opponent attacks. Certain scenarios, like the one you describe with sending Zealots to Tanks, will naturally emerge; same applies to Lurker contain or map split busting, aggressive maneuvers when holding the numerical advantage, etc. But as a default movement pattern + in conjunction with cycling as mentioned above, the most common approach is to manually "patrol" your key areas of the map to keep the army moving and in a line that can be made into a concave IMO.
10-20s for me is a good day, it s very often in the 30s+ range which is an issue. But by screen i mean general area of a map with mouse/arrow screen dragging, I consider one "screen" an immediate area, so if i have 15 gates in my main pvt and do a macro cycle i consider all of that one "screen" even if i m dragging it around. so looking army = 1 "screen", base " another screen" etc (if that makes sense?)
But yeah i realise it s a key issue i have currently and I need to fix it hence that question. I am hella slow on that front ^^ I recently started recording fpvod of me and watching and was immediately shocked how slow that was... thanks for adding details. Btw worker cycle is 13s give or take and i suspect it is the reason i got locked in that slow rhythm in the first place and never quite broke out of it
btw for reference Best is at about 3-4s per screen on average in the mid game pvt
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On January 30 2024 05:58 WGT-Baal wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 05:48 Jealous wrote:On January 29 2024 13:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~ pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want. you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list. eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth. as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight. no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game Great response IMO. Only a few notes: 1. I literally did not believe that Baal is spending 10-20s on a single screen. That only makes sense at the 4 worker start to make sure your early eco is maximally efficient. I thought he must have been saying ms (microseconds) which is really fast. Even as an amateur BW player who hit A in RM, both of these times are ludicrous to me. Based on Baal's response, it seems he really meant 10-20 seconds which you accurately pointed out is ridiculously slow even for the amateur level nowadays. 2. Something I think you overlooked in your message can be broken down into 3 parts: A. Cycling. Pros and high level amateurs have a "macro" (idea, not actual macro in-game) cycle. Army - base - eco, rinse repeat. You kinda alluded to this in your example and to be fair you limited yourself to that one example so I get why this is not "overlooking" something, but I think it is more important to address than any specific example. By grouping your commands in a natural way, like 1a2a3a4a 55 base management f2 f3 f4 eco management you create a universal pattern of "cycling" your hotkeys and pros do this all the time. The famous video of Bisu busting a Terran on bottom right and shoving a Probe macro cycle in there is a great example of this IMO. He didn't do it to be fancy, he just trained himself to do that cycle every ~20 in-game seconds or so (to be fair I forget the real number for worker production). B. The actual way to achieve this as far as I know is to establish that pattern early, what we call "spam" APM in the early game is actually setting the "rhythm" for your play going forward. Bisu does 11 22 33 as he is checking his scouting Probe and his Nexus, for an amateur like me it is 00 99 because of the location of "B" and "P" on the keyboard with original hotkeys. Similar applies to late game where the "rhythm" is the speed you set for yourself to multitask. C. In a similar vein but more explicitly, in MUs like PvP it is important to have your army moving to potentially create a better arc of engagement. The 1a2a3a4a I referenced above is more about holding your side of the map and creating a window of opportunity for yourself to address incoming threats effectively, so maybe this can be 2. A. II. point but this felt cleaner. This is, as you said, situational, but if a Protoss player finds themselves in an evenly matched scenario which is inevitable at all skill levels, having a spread formation for your army will allow you to create a better concave and by constantly moving, you make it more likely that you will get the better 200 vs. 200 engagement if the opponent attacks. Certain scenarios, like the one you describe with sending Zealots to Tanks, will naturally emerge; same applies to Lurker contain or map split busting, aggressive maneuvers when holding the numerical advantage, etc. But as a default movement pattern + in conjunction with cycling as mentioned above, the most common approach is to manually "patrol" your key areas of the map to keep the army moving and in a line that can be made into a concave IMO. 10-20s for me is a good day, it s very often in the 30s+ range which is an issue. But by screen i mean general area of a map with mouse/arrow screen dragging, I consider one "screen" an immediate area, so if i have 15 gates in my main pvt and do a macro cycle i consider all of that one "screen" even if i m dragging it around. so looking army = 1 "screen", base " another screen" etc (if that makes sense?) But yeah i realise it s a key issue i have currently and I need to fix it hence that question. I am hella slow on that front ^^ I recently started recording fpvod of me and watching and was immediately shocked how slow that was... thanks for adding details. Btw worker cycle is 13s give or take and i suspect it is the reason i got locked in that slow rhythm in the first place and never quite broke out of it btw for reference Best is at about 3-4s per screen on average in the mid game pvt
30s plus is wayyy too slow. i dont wish to offend you but i think at that point the problem is less to do with the game and more to do with your comfort in actually using a mouse and keyboard. its unfortunate but there are people who are just not great at basic keyboard/mouse mechanics and the only solution is to get better at that first, because for a reasonably proficient computer user there simply isnt enough things to do on 1 screen for you to be static on for close to 30 seconds.
@jealous
yeah i did skip over a lot because the post was already getting long. i thought about touching upon your point c but i felt that still wasnt enough. youre correct that pros will be conscious of constantly moving their army in a shape that ideally allows them to collapse onto the enemy in a concave if a fight starts with short notice. the time that would have otherwise been spent during a fight to micro the units is saved by having a good shape before the fight and a-clicking. but i thought bringing up this point only oversimplified army movement around the map too much. pros dont patrol back and forth around the map only because they wish to maintain the concave shape (as opposed to letting the army stand still and risk forming a sc2 style deathball). pros' armies move around back and forth so much because its similar to a game of go, or even chess. theyre probing around for weak spots in the opponents' position and vying for map pressure constantly. in a pro vs amateur game you almost never see this kind of back and forth because amateurs simply dont maneuver their units as intelligently and so there is always some exposure that is easily exploited by the pro, whether that be a loosely defended expo or a badly positioned army that gets its tail caught. its why pros seemingly roll over amateurs so well despite amateurs nowadays being fairly competent in builds and macro until the mid game. in a game between pros, they are fighting for position and pressure more than they are actually worried about the size of the armies. thats why theres so much back and forth movement; constant probing of each other's positions to see whether someone slips up eventually and concedes a good position
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On January 30 2024 14:24 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 05:58 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 30 2024 05:48 Jealous wrote:On January 29 2024 13:17 evilfatsh1t wrote:On January 29 2024 03:53 WGT-Baal wrote:On January 28 2024 04:17 BonitiilloO wrote:
Hi
i have notice that Arbiter are not longer a META, can someone tell me what makes toss not doing it anymore? Terrans got better at dealing with it with both EMP and mining their base. Also possibly the maps? Additionally reaver is very popular right now and it s easier to transition into speed shuttle from there (or carriers) than arbiters Another topic/question: how long should you look at any given screen location? I ve been recording some of my games and it feels at times, I stare at whatever for 30s or even 50ish. I see pros switch often like maybe every 10-20s it depends, and also they keep their armies moving most of the time. Are there any tips as to how/where to move and when to look back into your base (for macro) while you engage? For all 3 P mu please. Example pvz do you line up the storms then if you don't immediately back out, a click and go back to your production for a bit and then look again? Or are there other triggers? Any video guides maybe on those? There are more like general flow of the game concepts that i feel i m lacking a lot in. It s ok if those are kr only. I noticed my money piles up fast whenever I move out/attack and it s a problem. Thanks~ pros are not looking at the same screen for 10-20seconds. not even close. its more like 1-2 seconds when there are no engagements and just a bit longer when there are. it depends on the players also, some players like snow look at his units much longer than average, and pros like bisu/jd have way faster screen switching. some players also set up their hotkeys so that they can do things without switching screens, whilst others utilise hotkeys in a way that moves the screen to the location they want. you should be looking to "automate" your play more rather than be making live decisions in that moment. pros are able to be that fast because in their heads they already have an entire list of things that they need to do and they are simply crossing each item off the list. eg. rotate production -> scout information -> build a tech building -> build supply building -> see enemy unit -> move units -> see enemy tech; finds the enemy is expanding -> choose to follow expansion -> move worker to expo -> move units towards expo -> rotate new production -> organise new units the above example is 1 sequence of possibly thousands of different scenarios that could happen within a game, and for the pros all of this is in their head and being completed in less than a minute (even in the above scenario there are further little things i could have added that pros would be doing anyway). thats why they have the apm they do and their screens switch so fast. generally theyre not making "live" decisions, theyre just reacting to the situation and information using their own predetermined answers. army movement is an exception to this and it would be too difficult to explain the intricacies in how pros move their armies and why it looks like sometimes they are simply just moving their armies back and forth. as for the question about when to macro during a fight, the answer most of the time is that you prioritise macro over the fight. the exception would obviously be if you have specific units that need to do a big job during a fight (eg ht, arbiters) and if you failed to use the unit properly it would make or break the fight for you. but a simple zealot/dragoon head on clash should not have you looking at the fight that long. you a click all your units in first, then you specifically drag your zealots (which should have their own control group) into the tanks. then you cycle macro once if you have to and then you come back to the fight. no ones going to give an explanation of how to maneuver your army for all 3 matchups. theres too many variables and smaller details that cannot be written in a post. the general rule of thumb is if your production is finished then you should prioritise production over anything else. being able to micro your units in the time you have left is a matter of skill and thats what makes the best players the best. players like flash/bisu/jd in their prime were the pinnacle of their races because they produced units better than everyone but they also found the time to micro their units better than anyone. compare bisu to best, where best had the macro but he didnt quite have the micro of bisu. even so, its clear that best prioritised macro over micro, like most pros. nowadays snow is really the only exception in that he plays a very micro oriented game Great response IMO. Only a few notes: 1. I literally did not believe that Baal is spending 10-20s on a single screen. That only makes sense at the 4 worker start to make sure your early eco is maximally efficient. I thought he must have been saying ms (microseconds) which is really fast. Even as an amateur BW player who hit A in RM, both of these times are ludicrous to me. Based on Baal's response, it seems he really meant 10-20 seconds which you accurately pointed out is ridiculously slow even for the amateur level nowadays. 2. Something I think you overlooked in your message can be broken down into 3 parts: A. Cycling. Pros and high level amateurs have a "macro" (idea, not actual macro in-game) cycle. Army - base - eco, rinse repeat. You kinda alluded to this in your example and to be fair you limited yourself to that one example so I get why this is not "overlooking" something, but I think it is more important to address than any specific example. By grouping your commands in a natural way, like 1a2a3a4a 55 base management f2 f3 f4 eco management you create a universal pattern of "cycling" your hotkeys and pros do this all the time. The famous video of Bisu busting a Terran on bottom right and shoving a Probe macro cycle in there is a great example of this IMO. He didn't do it to be fancy, he just trained himself to do that cycle every ~20 in-game seconds or so (to be fair I forget the real number for worker production). B. The actual way to achieve this as far as I know is to establish that pattern early, what we call "spam" APM in the early game is actually setting the "rhythm" for your play going forward. Bisu does 11 22 33 as he is checking his scouting Probe and his Nexus, for an amateur like me it is 00 99 because of the location of "B" and "P" on the keyboard with original hotkeys. Similar applies to late game where the "rhythm" is the speed you set for yourself to multitask. C. In a similar vein but more explicitly, in MUs like PvP it is important to have your army moving to potentially create a better arc of engagement. The 1a2a3a4a I referenced above is more about holding your side of the map and creating a window of opportunity for yourself to address incoming threats effectively, so maybe this can be 2. A. II. point but this felt cleaner. This is, as you said, situational, but if a Protoss player finds themselves in an evenly matched scenario which is inevitable at all skill levels, having a spread formation for your army will allow you to create a better concave and by constantly moving, you make it more likely that you will get the better 200 vs. 200 engagement if the opponent attacks. Certain scenarios, like the one you describe with sending Zealots to Tanks, will naturally emerge; same applies to Lurker contain or map split busting, aggressive maneuvers when holding the numerical advantage, etc. But as a default movement pattern + in conjunction with cycling as mentioned above, the most common approach is to manually "patrol" your key areas of the map to keep the army moving and in a line that can be made into a concave IMO. 10-20s for me is a good day, it s very often in the 30s+ range which is an issue. But by screen i mean general area of a map with mouse/arrow screen dragging, I consider one "screen" an immediate area, so if i have 15 gates in my main pvt and do a macro cycle i consider all of that one "screen" even if i m dragging it around. so looking army = 1 "screen", base " another screen" etc (if that makes sense?) But yeah i realise it s a key issue i have currently and I need to fix it hence that question. I am hella slow on that front ^^ I recently started recording fpvod of me and watching and was immediately shocked how slow that was... thanks for adding details. Btw worker cycle is 13s give or take and i suspect it is the reason i got locked in that slow rhythm in the first place and never quite broke out of it btw for reference Best is at about 3-4s per screen on average in the mid game pvt 30s plus is wayyy too slow. i dont wish to offend you but i think at that point the problem is less to do with the game and more to do with your comfort in actually using a mouse and keyboard. its unfortunate but there are people who are just not great at basic keyboard/mouse mechanics and the only solution is to get better at that first, because for a reasonably proficient computer user there simply isnt enough things to do on 1 screen for you to be static on for close to 30 seconds. @jealous yeah i did skip over a lot because the post was already getting long. i thought about touching upon your point c but i felt that still wasnt enough. youre correct that pros will be conscious of constantly moving their army in a shape that ideally allows them to collapse onto the enemy in a concave if a fight starts with short notice. the time that would have otherwise been spent during a fight to micro the units is saved by having a good shape before the fight and a-clicking. but i thought bringing up this point only oversimplified army movement around the map too much. pros dont patrol back and forth around the map only because they wish to maintain the concave shape (as opposed to letting the army stand still and risk forming a sc2 style deathball). pros' armies move around back and forth so much because its similar to a game of go, or even chess. theyre probing around for weak spots in the opponents' position and vying for map pressure constantly. in a pro vs amateur game you almost never see this kind of back and forth because amateurs simply dont maneuver their units as intelligently and so there is always some exposure that is easily exploited by the pro, whether that be a loosely defended expo or a badly positioned army that gets its tail caught. its why pros seemingly roll over amateurs so well despite amateurs nowadays being fairly competent in builds and macro until the mid game. in a game between pros, they are fighting for position and pressure more than they are actually worried about the size of the armies. thats why theres so much back and forth movement; constant probing of each other's positions to see whether someone slips up eventually and concedes a good position
I am not offended, it is terrible indeed and you are right to call it out. I didnt realise it until I watched some FPVOD recording of my play how shockingly slow it was. But now that I am aware of it and both you and jealous gave a lot of details on how things should be and why they should be that way, it will be much easier to eliminate the issue. I do a lot of things without looking just by hotkeys (queue protoss jokes) so this hasnt prevented me from reaching B, but that s probably because I just get my army and amove it and win or lose at the first big battle, which I also watch in its entirety usually.
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wait....you hit b on ladder by watching your screen for 10-30 seconds at a time?
i havent played any ladder on sc:r but wtf? is ladder actually that bad
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On January 30 2024 22:55 evilfatsh1t wrote:
wait....you hit b on ladder by watching your screen for 10-30 seconds at a time?
i havent played any ladder on sc:r but wtf? is ladder actually that bad
It depends how you play I think. I ve been B for years on multiple accounts it s not a one time fluke. I primarily use heavily defensive macro builds into busts usually. Since i don't focus on tiny hit squads or harass, i make a lot of units quickly and hit my timings as expected, immediately ending a lot of games, it also somewhat negates the need to change screens often.
That being said I would argue low B is the absolute limit for this which is why I m looking to fix it, it also immediately falls apart vs more harass/aggressive multitask oriented opponents (vulture raids/drops, muta, speed shuttle reaver...)
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EPT
