EPT1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"?
2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge?
Edit: Made a typo
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 475
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Fumapl
59 Posts
1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"? 2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge? Edit: Made a typo | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
On December 01 2022 07:29 Fumapl wrote: 2in1 1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"? 2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge? Edit: Made a typo Well 3 hatch spire infers you start with mutas and "into 5 hatch hydra" infers you end up with 5 hatch hydras once mutas done its course. While this can seem like air control it doesnt necessarily have to be. A Toss with great sair control can outplay both mutas and scourge, which is why you need to change to Hydras, otherwise you get overthrown by 12 sairs with no way of stopping em. While 6 hatch hydra infers you start with 6 hatch hydras which indeed gives up some air control but usually you have your lords in such a place their safe by hydras. You dont need air control early on in a ZvP, you do however needs to protect your lords or you will cripple both your economy and your lead. In a sense you can never have complete air control in a ZvP. Corsairs will always be more powerful than mutas/scourge. Devourers do sway this but thats so late game its not worth considering. The defense against mass sair is plague and hydras. Once plagued they will die like flies from hydras and spores. Corsair is a medium unit so it takes 75% dmg from hydras but 100% to its shields. I would recommend watching Soma to see this in action. Both how/when you move your lords to safety and the build orders that are META. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2284 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3413 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1598 Posts
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namkraft
507 Posts
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Optimate
249 Posts
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namkraft
507 Posts
On January 20 2023 01:28 Optimate wrote: First you must make sure you have Dragoon range. Then you have to just inch it up a bit by bit while pressing the h key for hold position. It doesn't really work sometimes. I have 2 dragoons standing at exactly the same distance from the bunker. I press H on both but only one fires. Sometimes the dragoon that is farther away would fire. The closer one doesn't! | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8762 Posts
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Re-select all goons and click Hold again. If you manually rightclick bunker when outside bunker range the 'assisting radius' isnt used as you forced it to do a forced task. Move/Attack are forcing commands. Attack-Move/Patrol/Hold are automatic Move/Attack ordering as they feel like it. Hold doesnt have a Move ofc but it attacks units at free will even those outside range it cant reach. Most experts use this to their advantage, as one shot on any goon then falling back will cause all goons in Hold position to stop firing and trying to chase that unit though they cant. This might be your issue. Solution: Move goons forward and click Hold. Once goons starts firing the bunker you rightclick the bunker to force attack it and not listen to anything else. The reason you use Hold to find the range is because it stops the goon in its place, if you use attack-move it will overstep before attacking and then you are inside bunker attack range. The reason you DONT use STOP command is because it has a huge delay until it starts shooting, Hold immediately searches for a target meanwhile Stop forces an idle state for a brief moment. Its also why you micro (with a few goons) with Hold command because it forces goons to NOT move towards the target and getting too close before firing. If it cant fire from Hold position you manually adjust its position to be inline with the other goons firing range then keep Move/Hold/Move/Hold. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
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WGT-Baal
France3413 Posts
On January 28 2023 01:25 outscar wrote: I'm average C rank terran, I can climb myself every season without trying hard. Lately after work I casually play random and get my ass handled to me, sitting on E rank. I don't do any specific BO just improvise and react. Is this normal or I should stop playing random and focus on 1 race? Any random players? it s pretty normal, it s likely your Z and P are far worse than terran, so 2/3rd of the time you lose to lower ranks than what you would do as T, and it drags your MMR down faster (it works with streak). Eventually you ll stabilise and catch up with both Z and P and come back. It s a learning curve. Playing random (or offrace) is always good fun and a good experience too to see matchups "from the other side" so continue doing what you find the most fun. | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On January 28 2023 01:48 WGT-Baal wrote: it s pretty normal, it s likely your Z and P are far worse than terran, so 2/3rd of the time you lose to lower ranks than what you would do as T, and it drags your MMR down faster (it works with streak). Eventually you ll stabilise and catch up with both Z and P and come back. It s a learning curve. Playing random (or offrace) is always good fun and a good experience too to see matchups "from the other side" so continue doing what you find the most fun. I guess I should learn some basic BOs for Z/P and take it bit seriously (or not because yesterday I was so frustrated after loss streak and sit until morning to get my MMR back lol). Also ladder is filled with smurfs so my losses must be expected. | ||
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WGT-Baal
France3413 Posts
You can just 5pool anytime you are Z and canon rush/proxy gates anytime you are P for instance | ||
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fearthequeen
United States788 Posts
On December 02 2022 19:32 MeSaber wrote: Well 3 hatch spire infers you start with mutas and "into 5 hatch hydra" infers you end up with 5 hatch hydras once mutas done its course. While this can seem like air control it doesnt necessarily have to be. A Toss with great sair control can outplay both mutas and scourge, which is why you need to change to Hydras, otherwise you get overthrown by 12 sairs with no way of stopping em. While 6 hatch hydra infers you start with 6 hatch hydras which indeed gives up some air control but usually you have your lords in such a place their safe by hydras. You dont need air control early on in a ZvP, you do however needs to protect your lords or you will cripple both your economy and your lead. In a sense you can never have complete air control in a ZvP. Corsairs will always be more powerful than mutas/scourge. Devourers do sway this but thats so late game its not worth considering. The defense against mass sair is plague and hydras. Once plagued they will die like flies from hydras and spores. Corsair is a medium unit so it takes 75% dmg from hydras but 100% to its shields. I would recommend watching Soma to see this in action. Both how/when you move your lords to safety and the build orders that are META. If I'm understanding correctly, OP was asking about the difference between 3H spire>5H hydra and 3H spire>6H hydra (what he calls 6H hydra). Neither of which infers that you make muta off 3 hatch. 3 hatch spire just means that you got a spire after 3 hatches. Most of the time you make 4th and 5th hatch before the spire is done, then 2-4 scourge and transition to hydra. The difference with 6 hatch vs 5 hatch is that you prioritize your 6th hatch before hydra den and evolution chamber. So the timing attack is slower but you have more economy and production. | ||
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quaristice
112 Posts
i've seen some asl and recently bsl games where i've wondered this | ||
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MeSaber
Sweden1235 Posts
Batteries needs to be local for your attack, if you have batteries at your nat but attacks opponents nat its too far to be useful. So whatever you build at home might not be useful later on, ie a waste of cash. Most pro gamers are probably confident enough to skip battery while i agree it can seem useful. | ||
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quaristice
112 Posts
also i could see that maaaybe but it that doesnt quite add up because 1 battery costs 100 mineral and a carrier costs 350/250, not to mention the interceptors in a lot of this situations it's a defensive fight to get to critical mass and losing 1 carrier is a pretty big deal there, and sure you can't use it later after you leave but at that point you've got the game under control | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
I do think that the odd shield battery or two could turn a losing game into a winning game, but it's very difficult to produce a good example that proves that it's generally a good idea to build them. | ||
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TheGruntMaster6000
11 Posts
Thanks, | ||
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