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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 475

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Fumapl
Profile Blog Joined September 2017
59 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-30 22:34:41
November 30 2022 22:29 GMT
#9481
2in1

1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"?
2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge?

Edit: Made a typo
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-12-02 10:42:05
December 02 2022 10:32 GMT
#9482
On December 01 2022 07:29 Fumapl wrote:
2in1

1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"?
2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge?

Edit: Made a typo


Well 3 hatch spire infers you start with mutas and "into 5 hatch hydra" infers you end up with 5 hatch hydras once mutas done its course. While this can seem like air control it doesnt necessarily have to be. A Toss with great sair control can outplay both mutas and scourge, which is why you need to change to Hydras, otherwise you get overthrown by 12 sairs with no way of stopping em.

While 6 hatch hydra infers you start with 6 hatch hydras which indeed gives up some air control but usually you have your lords in such a place their safe by hydras. You dont need air control early on in a ZvP, you do however needs to protect your lords or you will cripple both your economy and your lead.

In a sense you can never have complete air control in a ZvP. Corsairs will always be more powerful than mutas/scourge. Devourers do sway this but thats so late game its not worth considering.

The defense against mass sair is plague and hydras. Once plagued they will die like flies from hydras and spores. Corsair is a medium unit so it takes 75% dmg from hydras but 100% to its shields.

I would recommend watching Soma to see this in action. Both how/when you move your lords to safety and the build orders that are META.
-.-
XenOsky
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Chile2262 Posts
January 18 2023 00:09 GMT
#9483
how can i check my eapm, bwchart doesnt show it ?
StarCraft & Audax Italiano.
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3353 Posts
January 18 2023 01:40 GMT
#9484
You can use remastered.app
Horang2 fan
EndingLife
Profile Blog Joined December 2002
United States1594 Posts
January 18 2023 14:01 GMT
#9485
repmastered.app
namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
447 Posts
January 19 2023 16:27 GMT
#9486
Sometimes a dragoon is in range of the bunker but doesn't attack it. I would have to move it forward, which makes it in range of the marine. How to make sure dragoons always fire at the bunker correctly?
Broodwar Forever
Optimate
Profile Joined August 2020
247 Posts
January 19 2023 16:28 GMT
#9487
First you must make sure you have Dragoon range. Then you have to just inch it up a bit by bit while pressing the h key for hold position.
namkraft
Profile Blog Joined December 2021
447 Posts
January 19 2023 17:02 GMT
#9488
On January 20 2023 01:28 Optimate wrote:
First you must make sure you have Dragoon range. Then you have to just inch it up a bit by bit while pressing the h key for hold position.


It doesn't really work sometimes. I have 2 dragoons standing at exactly the same distance from the bunker. I press H on both but only one fires.

Sometimes the dragoon that is farther away would fire. The closer one doesn't!
Broodwar Forever
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8639 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-19 17:31:14
January 19 2023 17:30 GMT
#9489
the dragoon attack range radius isnt a perfect circle around the unit (at least from a practical standpoint). change the angle the dragoon is standing at and it will start to fire. you dont have to change the angle that much even
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-20 09:02:48
January 20 2023 08:56 GMT
#9490
If you put units in Hold they have a 'assisting radius' around em which reacts to other units being fired at. If some other goon got shot it will try to help that goon but it cant because its in Hold position.

Re-select all goons and click Hold again.

If you manually rightclick bunker when outside bunker range the 'assisting radius' isnt used as you forced it to do a forced task.

Move/Attack are forcing commands.

Attack-Move/Patrol/Hold are automatic Move/Attack ordering as they feel like it. Hold doesnt have a Move ofc but it attacks units at free will even those outside range it cant reach.

Most experts use this to their advantage, as one shot on any goon then falling back will cause all goons in Hold position to stop firing and trying to chase that unit though they cant.

This might be your issue.

Solution: Move goons forward and click Hold. Once goons starts firing the bunker you rightclick the bunker to force attack it and not listen to anything else.

The reason you use Hold to find the range is because it stops the goon in its place, if you use attack-move it will overstep before attacking and then you are inside bunker attack range.

The reason you DONT use STOP command is because it has a huge delay until it starts shooting, Hold immediately searches for a target meanwhile Stop forces an idle state for a brief moment.

Its also why you micro (with a few goons) with Hold command because it forces goons to NOT move towards the target and getting too close before firing. If it cant fire from Hold position you manually adjust its position to be inline with the other goons firing range then keep Move/Hold/Move/Hold.
-.-
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
January 27 2023 16:25 GMT
#9491
I'm average C rank terran, I can climb myself every season without trying hard. Lately after work I casually play random and get my ass handled to me, sitting on E rank. I don't do any specific BO just improvise and react. Is this normal or I should stop playing random and focus on 1 race? Any random players?
sunbeams are never made like me...
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3353 Posts
January 27 2023 16:48 GMT
#9492
On January 28 2023 01:25 outscar wrote:
I'm average C rank terran, I can climb myself every season without trying hard. Lately after work I casually play random and get my ass handled to me, sitting on E rank. I don't do any specific BO just improvise and react. Is this normal or I should stop playing random and focus on 1 race? Any random players?


it s pretty normal, it s likely your Z and P are far worse than terran, so 2/3rd of the time you lose to lower ranks than what you would do as T, and it drags your MMR down faster (it works with streak). Eventually you ll stabilise and catch up with both Z and P and come back. It s a learning curve.

Playing random (or offrace) is always good fun and a good experience too to see matchups "from the other side" so continue doing what you find the most fun.
Horang2 fan
outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-01-27 18:10:32
January 27 2023 18:09 GMT
#9493
On January 28 2023 01:48 WGT-Baal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 28 2023 01:25 outscar wrote:
I'm average C rank terran, I can climb myself every season without trying hard. Lately after work I casually play random and get my ass handled to me, sitting on E rank. I don't do any specific BO just improvise and react. Is this normal or I should stop playing random and focus on 1 race? Any random players?


it s pretty normal, it s likely your Z and P are far worse than terran, so 2/3rd of the time you lose to lower ranks than what you would do as T, and it drags your MMR down faster (it works with streak). Eventually you ll stabilise and catch up with both Z and P and come back. It s a learning curve.

Playing random (or offrace) is always good fun and a good experience too to see matchups "from the other side" so continue doing what you find the most fun.


I guess I should learn some basic BOs for Z/P and take it bit seriously (or not because yesterday I was so frustrated after loss streak and sit until morning to get my MMR back lol). Also ladder is filled with smurfs so my losses must be expected.
sunbeams are never made like me...
WGT-Baal
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
France3353 Posts
January 27 2023 21:52 GMT
#9494
Yeah. I mean do what is fun for you.
You can just 5pool anytime you are Z and canon rush/proxy gates anytime you are P for instance
Horang2 fan
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States786 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-04 00:59:11
February 04 2023 00:52 GMT
#9495
On December 02 2022 19:32 MeSaber wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 01 2022 07:29 Fumapl wrote:
2in1

1) What is the underlying conceptual difference between ZvP builds named as per Liquipedia "3 Hatch Spire into 5 Hatch Hydra" and "6 Hatch Hydra"?
2) Does 6 Hatch Hydra give up some air control with regards to scourge?

Edit: Made a typo


Well 3 hatch spire infers you start with mutas and "into 5 hatch hydra" infers you end up with 5 hatch hydras once mutas done its course. While this can seem like air control it doesnt necessarily have to be. A Toss with great sair control can outplay both mutas and scourge, which is why you need to change to Hydras, otherwise you get overthrown by 12 sairs with no way of stopping em.

While 6 hatch hydra infers you start with 6 hatch hydras which indeed gives up some air control but usually you have your lords in such a place their safe by hydras. You dont need air control early on in a ZvP, you do however needs to protect your lords or you will cripple both your economy and your lead.

In a sense you can never have complete air control in a ZvP. Corsairs will always be more powerful than mutas/scourge. Devourers do sway this but thats so late game its not worth considering.

The defense against mass sair is plague and hydras. Once plagued they will die like flies from hydras and spores. Corsair is a medium unit so it takes 75% dmg from hydras but 100% to its shields.

I would recommend watching Soma to see this in action. Both how/when you move your lords to safety and the build orders that are META.


If I'm understanding correctly, OP was asking about the difference between 3H spire>5H hydra and 3H spire>6H hydra (what he calls 6H hydra). Neither of which infers that you make muta off 3 hatch. 3 hatch spire just means that you got a spire after 3 hatches. Most of the time you make 4th and 5th hatch before the spire is done, then 2-4 scourge and transition to hydra.

The difference with 6 hatch vs 5 hatch is that you prioritize your 6th hatch before hydra den and evolution chamber. So the timing attack is slower but you have more economy and production.


NAKR`flying
quaristice
Profile Joined February 2021
112 Posts
February 05 2023 08:45 GMT
#9496
in pvt situations where a protoss player has gone relatively early carriers and the terran is pushing to try to punish this; and the carriers are taking damage directly sometimes, why don't the higher level protoss players use a shield battery on their carriers? i mean the situations where the protoss is fighting over control of the space right outside their natural, and the carriers are often in the natural anyway

i've seen some asl and recently bsl games where i've wondered this
MeSaber
Profile Joined December 2009
Sweden1235 Posts
February 06 2023 06:29 GMT
#9497
A shield battery with 100 starting energy is 200 shield, that would heal 1.3 carriers. You would need some batteries for it to be effective, ie maybe too big of a cost.

Batteries needs to be local for your attack, if you have batteries at your nat but attacks opponents nat its too far to be useful. So whatever you build at home might not be useful later on, ie a waste of cash.

Most pro gamers are probably confident enough to skip battery while i agree it can seem useful.
-.-
quaristice
Profile Joined February 2021
112 Posts
Last Edited: 2023-02-06 08:23:13
February 06 2023 08:20 GMT
#9498
i think after making this post i saw someone actually built a battery for carriers this weekend in bsl lol

also i could see that maaaybe but it that doesnt quite add up because 1 battery costs 100 mineral and a carrier costs 350/250, not to mention the interceptors

in a lot of this situations it's a defensive fight to get to critical mass and losing 1 carrier is a pretty big deal there, and sure you can't use it later after you leave but at that point you've got the game under control
Magic Powers
Profile Joined April 2012
Austria3951 Posts
February 06 2023 09:36 GMT
#9499
The main issue with shield batteries is that they're immobile, and carriers, being among the slower units, tend to have more pressing things to do like harassing terran bases. Defensive use of carriers, while important, is often of lower priority because protoss expects to lose and rebuild several bases over the course of the game in order to trade them for terran bases/units, which implies also losing and rebuilding shield batteries. That investment turns into a resource sink very quickly.

I do think that the odd shield battery or two could turn a losing game into a winning game, but it's very difficult to produce a good example that proves that it's generally a good idea to build them.
If you want to do the right thing, 80% of your job is done if you don't do the wrong thing.
TheGruntMaster6000
Profile Joined February 2023
11 Posts
February 17 2023 04:36 GMT
#9500
Why do corsairs get to be a medium armour type and not scouts? And why do they start with an armour. So the corsair is cheaper then the scout significantly but it gets more speed, an ability, medium armour rather then the crappy large type, starts with an armour, and it is faster without an upgrade? I mean why?

Thanks,
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