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On December 15 2017 00:55 Iankill wrote:
I think didn't explain myself well enough. I know conceptually that to beat him i should just out macro him because he'll be behind in minerals or just kill the cannons with tanks.
The problem comes about in that there are so many cannons that without committing a good chunk of tanks i can't get through them before his army shows up even then i still might get trapped.
If you macro to a max supply army you don't have to worry about attacking before his army is there or getting trapped.
He's not an optimal player but is really good at making units even if they're the wrong ones. Like he'll open with a 2gate zealot rush to contain me while he FEs.
My normal tvp is a fd using tanks and early marines fyi pressure. Doesn't work as well when he has 10 zealots
Wall in and siege expand instead.
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http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_Build
This build seems to advocate siege expand, but with skipping turrets-- but I thought turrets were fairly essential in a siege expand [assuming you werent certain he was avoiding reaver/dt] in order to be safe. How important is it to have turrets/how much would it slow this build down to get an ebay? Etc.
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On December 15 2017 02:10 Dazed. wrote:http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Iloveoov_BuildThis build seems to advocate siege expand, but with skipping turrets-- but I thought turrets were fairly essential in a siege expand [assuming you werent certain he was avoiding reaver/dt] in order to be safe. How important is it to have turrets/how much would it slow this build down to get an ebay? Etc.
Well it says in the "Build Order clarification":
"The early scouting SCV, and perhaps a second, is crucial to finding out what route the Protoss is taking. If they are doing DTs or Reaver off of one base then an early Engineering Bay is needed. However, if they are doing a 2 Gate Build or any sort of Fast Expansion then the E-bay can be skipped until much later."
"As 2 base Reaver is a distinct threat, the early Starport allows the possibility for a fast Wraith to ward off this threat without having to spend money on Turrets."
So it seems that, if your SCV-scouts fail, you need the ebay at a standard siege-expo timing in order to be safe.
And if you can scout that it's no early shuttle play, then you will get the fast dropship, so you should see if he is going for something that requires you to build anti-air, be it a wraith or an ebay+turrets to play very safe.
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Dang. Mods, can you substract posts from my post-count somehow? I made the same mistake twice on the last two pages of this thread, quoting instead of editing.
+ Show Spoiler +Of course, you might also be meek and mild and let it slip this time, huehuehue...
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Wall in and siege expand instead.
This build seems to advocate siege expand, but with skipping turrets-- but I thought turrets were fairly essential in a siege expand [assuming you werent certain he was avoiding reaver/dt] in order to be safe. How important is it to have turrets/how much would it slow this build down to get an ebay? Etc.
I'm going to start trying this, I think I've been overthinking this the whole time. Usually when I see his zealots I'm thinking vultures counter zealots, I should make vultures. Rethinking that it doesn't really make sense, because chances are i won't have enough vultures early to stop that many zealots and tanks behind a wall beat both zealots and goons.
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Is anyone using the wLauncher for Remastered? What is your experience? Is it good? What are it's advantages? Aren't you scared that you might get banned for it?
I am thinking of starting to use it, but I do not want my account to be banned -_- I see some koreans using it so it should be fine, but you never know...
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On December 14 2017 14:04 Iankill wrote:
Question about TvP at low levels.
I play against my friend fairly often and he always puts up a ton of photon cannons at his expansions outside his main and nat, sometimes before even transferring workers. Enough that even with tanks I can't kill off his cannons quick enough before his army arrives and its a full on fight, it makes harass and drop play basically pointless.
He uses this to eventually tech or arbiters for recall and carriers to beat me.
How do I break expos with like 10+ cannons, or what should my mindset be when I see that happening?
Can you provide a replay?
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On December 15 2017 20:39 craz3d wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2017 14:04 Iankill wrote:
Question about TvP at low levels.
I play against my friend fairly often and he always puts up a ton of photon cannons at his expansions outside his main and nat, sometimes before even transferring workers. Enough that even with tanks I can't kill off his cannons quick enough before his army arrives and its a full on fight, it makes harass and drop play basically pointless.
He uses this to eventually tech or arbiters for recall and carriers to beat me.
How do I break expos with like 10+ cannons, or what should my mindset be when I see that happening? Can you provide a replay?
I think Highgamer gave a good answer to this, I would addd this kind of tactics adding canons for P over some area in front of bases is not bad way to play mid/late game (in some cases at least), but likely hardcountered by a decent T if you do it early
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What have zergs changed to cause the 9 minute terran push with tanks to fall out of favor? Is it a variation they changed in the 3 hatch build or are there simply more effective builds in the tvz meta right now?
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Since the biggest danger of a 1 rax FE vs Protoss is a 2 gate zealot all-in, what about building a wall and retreating behind it when you detect 2 gate zealot.
Would that still put you too far behind since your factory is delayed, or can you still recover in that case?
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On December 19 2017 08:04 LetaBot wrote:
Since the biggest danger of a 1 rax FE vs Protoss is a 2 gate zealot all-in, what about building a wall and retreating behind it when you detect 2 gate zealot.
Would that still put you too far behind since your factory is delayed, or can you still recover in that case?
Would be interested in answers, too.
In my eyes, the problem is rather that, in 2 out of 3 cases, the zealot(s) are in your natural before you scout the (probably proxied or semi-proxied) 2 gates or before you can finish your wall. You would only have 1-2 marines behind your wall (that is still in the process of being built) at first against 1-3 zealots, too. Better build a semi-wall to micro against first zealot (using your CC and rax+depot) and bunker up.
But maybe there is a chance if you scout it immediatelly, have an SCV in place to start finishing the wall right away and a little luck with the way the SCV 'dances' around the construction site (which you can manipulate by stopping-starting building).
And building wall blindy sux of course against goons.
edit: Guess I didn't answer on the economic question. If you can wall with one more depot, you need that anyway. You have repair-costs though and full-marine production, so you have to cut SCVs to get the factory fast enough for a goon-follow-up (I guess). Then again you said: Zealot all-in... sure wall is nice against that if you can get it up because you don't need a factory that quickly.
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On December 19 2017 06:14 kidcrash wrote:
What have zergs changed to cause the 9 minute terran push with tanks to fall out of favor? Is it a variation they changed in the 3 hatch build or are there simply more effective builds in the tvz meta right now?
Zergs don't get +1 carapace before Hive so they get defilers much faster nowadays, so you only have a very tight window to bust the natural. since muta micro is also much better these days, it usually delays the push long enough, since you need a lot of turrets and don't have as much marines.
On December 19 2017 08:04 LetaBot wrote:
Since the biggest danger of a 1 rax FE vs Protoss is a 2 gate zealot all-in, what about building a wall and retreating behind it when you detect 2 gate zealot.
Would that still put you too far behind since your factory is delayed, or can you still recover in that case?
If you scout it early enough, a good response might be to build the CC off location as part of a wall in front of the natural with depot and barracks. Then you could reposition your CC a little bit later when you built your bunker and got your tank coming (or vultures, if he really build a lot of zealots). But you need wallable naturals for that and your marines must be able to spawn on the inside (1 marine and a wall will not prevent a mass zealot attack for 3mins or so until your first vulture is out). A wall at your main entrance would not help, because you cannot get up a bunker in your natural, so you would have to wait for factory units.
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the hardest counter I got to early zealot was a wall with fact+CC in front of natural lol (FS bottom left)
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On December 20 2017 19:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
the hardest counter I got to early zealot was a wall with fact+CC in front of natural lol (FS bottom left)
In the top left and bottom right positions you can use the following setups and they're zealot-proof.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/G7TAC3B.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/P9gSe1j.jpg)
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How many minerals are stacked on each other at the backdoor ramp on Destination? And what is the optimal amount of workers to use for an attack at the backdoor ramp?
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On December 20 2017 22:04 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2017 19:45 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
the hardest counter I got to early zealot was a wall with fact+CC in front of natural lol (FS bottom left) In the top left and bottom right positions you can use the following setups and they're zealot-proof.
On bottom left and top right, you can make a wall in the narrowest portion of the natural's choke that is
BARRACKS CC (bottom left)
Or
CC BARRACKS (top right)
And it will also be Zealot-tight. You will have to distance mine and I don't think you can produce SCVs from the top right position CC as they do not walk between CC and Rax, but it's one way to ensure that you are safe from Zealot opening while going Rax FE.
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On December 22 2017 05:38 chrisolo wrote:
How many minerals are stacked on each other at the backdoor ramp on Destination? And what is the optimal amount of workers to use for an attack at the backdoor ramp?
20 mineral patches stacked on top of eachother
Ideally you want like 12 but I guess realistically 4-5?
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i guess it really depends on your specific cheese strat how many workers you want to bring there
these minerals are pretty much an anti cheese, you can still cheese through but it's quite risky isn't it?
what I would do sometimes is just mine it slowly with 1 or 2 workers at start of game. It's slow but at this moment can be harder for opponent to cancel out and he could also not see it. Then it opens the door for you to attack later. It makes it predictable that you might attack this way ofc but it also gives this extra threat that could cost something to your opponent.
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According to that article, I'd say basing the build around the timing push it's its downside. It's not a build that carries you to infinite lategame, unlike Late Mechanic.
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EPT
