• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:46
CET 10:46
KST 18:46
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro24 Preview Pt1: New Chaos0Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - Presented by Monster Energy7ByuL: The Forgotten Master of ZvT30Behind the Blue - Team Liquid History Book19Clem wins HomeStory Cup 289
Community News
Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises3Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool48Weekly Cups (March 9-15): herO, Clem, ByuN win42026 KungFu Cup Announcement6BGE Stara Zagora 2026 cancelled12
StarCraft 2
General
Potential Updates Coming to the SC2 CN Server What mix of new & old maps do you want in the next ladder pool? (SC2) Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool Weekly Cups (March 16-22): herO doubles, Cure surprises Weekly Cups (August 25-31): Clem's Last Straw?
Tourneys
WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament World University TeamLeague (500$+) | Signups Open RSL Season 4 announced for March-April WardiTV Team League Season 10
Strategy
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Frigid Storage Publishing has been re-enabled! [Feb 24th 2026]
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 518 Radiation Zone Mutation # 517 Distant Threat Mutation # 516 Specter of Death
Brood War
General
mca64Launcher - New Version with StarCraft: Remast How much money terran looses from gas steal? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Which mirror match you like most or least? Gypsy to Korea
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL21] Ro24 Group C [ASL21] Ro24 Group B 2026 Changsha Offline Cup
Strategy
What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers Soma's 9 hatch build from ASL Game 2
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece
Sports
Cricket [SPORT] 2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion Tokyo Olympics 2021 Thread General nutrition recommendations
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Laptop capable of using Photoshop Lightroom?
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Money Laundering In Video Ga…
TrAiDoS
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
FS++
Kraekkling
Shocked by a laser…
Spydermine0240
Unintentional protectionism…
Uldridge
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 5320 users

Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 190

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Prev 1 188 189 190 191 192 487 Next
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
March 10 2014 02:17 GMT
#3781
On March 10 2014 06:22 EvilChuck wrote:
How should I hotkey my units as terran to control late-game big MnM armies?

Sea uses 123 units, 4 sci vessels, 5 latest CC, 67890 for scans IIRC. Then Fkeys for production and rally points, I imagine. I daresay you just use box select and minimap A-move for anything beyond the first 36 MnM units.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
sabas123
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands3122 Posts
March 10 2014 20:43 GMT
#3782
On March 10 2014 11:17 Birdie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2014 06:22 EvilChuck wrote:
How should I hotkey my units as terran to control late-game big MnM armies?

Sea uses 123 units, 4 sci vessels, 5 latest CC, 67890 for scans IIRC. Then Fkeys for production and rally points, I imagine. I daresay you just use box select and minimap A-move for anything beyond the first 36 MnM units.

0_o

i thought he used 1-3 marines 4 meds 5 vessels
The harder it becomes, the more you should focus on the basics.
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
March 10 2014 22:20 GMT
#3783
Ah my bad, it's 1-4 units, 5 sci ves, 6 CC, 7890 scans.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 13 2014 07:36 GMT
#3784
What kind/brand of computer chair will maximize my ergonomic proficiency in a way that will improve my StarCraft game?
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
March 13 2014 07:38 GMT
#3785
needforseat for the esport dollars
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
March 13 2014 07:53 GMT
#3786
On March 13 2014 16:36 ninazerg wrote:
What kind/brand of computer chair will maximize my ergonomic proficiency in a way that will improve my StarCraft game?


This is the ideal chair for Broodwar
NAKR`flying
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
March 13 2014 11:40 GMT
#3787
Byaaaaaa! Spending money on shit!
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
March 13 2014 16:00 GMT
#3788
Here's a Q... I'm finally watching a lot of old progamer games on YouTube (TL has indoctrinated me), and in TvZ, it's just puzzling to me. So many Terrans getting majorly f'ed up by big-time muta harass, while refusing to build any anti-air other than marines and turrets. It's like they would rather die than build any valks or wraiths. o_0

I understand that finally changed with popularity of 'Fantasy' type builds/'valkonic' builds, but still... why did it take so long to change? Can't imagine 'gosu' muta micro was that uncommon.

User was warned for being hilarious
Birdie
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
New Zealand4438 Posts
March 13 2014 19:08 GMT
#3789
On March 14 2014 01:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Here's a Q... I'm finally watching a lot of old progamer games on YouTube (TL has indoctrinated me), and in TvZ, it's just puzzling to me. So many Terrans getting majorly f'ed up by big-time muta harass, while refusing to build any anti-air other than marines and turrets. It's like they would rather die than build any valks or wraiths. o_0

I understand that finally changed with popularity of 'Fantasy' type builds/'valkonic' builds, but still... why did it take so long to change? Can't imagine 'gosu' muta micro was that uncommon.


Wraiths aren't that great anti-air until they get cloak and numbers, and it takes too long to transition into them. Valkyries aren't particularly easy to keep alive but they were used, as you noted. Other than that, MnM and turrets are the most efficient anti-air around, without trying to mech switch while being harassed.
Red classic | A butterfly dreamed he was Zhuangzi | 4.5k, heading to 5k as support!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
March 13 2014 20:27 GMT
#3790
Hey guys, I've been watching a lot of replays, and I noticed that in PvT, a lot of Protosses get wrecked by fast fd and vulture harasses, so why do they refuse to make cannons? Cannons kill marines w/ ease, and in large numbers, are good against vultures, so why not just put like 6 cannons at each nexus?
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8828 Posts
March 13 2014 21:43 GMT
#3791
the biggest rule in starcraft is to spend as little as possible but achieve the most results. its better to defend your base barely than conpletely destroy their army by investing 6 cannons which arent going to help you fight later on.
your aim isnt to just defend against fd, you have to expand as well to get ahead. you just dont have the time or money to build an expansion, forge and cannons. only go all out defense if the opponent allins
fearthequeen
Profile Joined November 2011
United States788 Posts
March 13 2014 23:29 GMT
#3792
On March 14 2014 06:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the biggest rule in starcraft is to spend as little as possible but achieve the most results. its better to defend your base barely than conpletely destroy their army by investing 6 cannons which arent going to help you fight later on.
your aim isnt to just defend against fd, you have to expand as well to get ahead. you just dont have the time or money to build an expansion, forge and cannons. only go all out defense if the opponent allins


recalibrate joke detector
NAKR`flying
Reuental
Profile Joined July 2009
United States457 Posts
March 14 2014 02:14 GMT
#3793
On March 14 2014 01:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Here's a Q... I'm finally watching a lot of old progamer games on YouTube (TL has indoctrinated me), and in TvZ, it's just puzzling to me. So many Terrans getting majorly f'ed up by big-time muta harass, while refusing to build any anti-air other than marines and turrets. It's like they would rather die than build any valks or wraiths. o_0

I understand that finally changed with popularity of 'Fantasy' type builds/'valkonic' builds, but still... why did it take so long to change? Can't imagine 'gosu' muta micro was that uncommon.



Ah, this is something you wouldn't get unless you watched TvZ evolve over the course of many years. This is my understanding of it.

TvZ strategy for a long time was based around doing one gigantic push before defilers came out, while this push is still a key part of TvZ strategy, Ts changed the way they about doing it. Before modern builds Ts would mostly turtle up and try to amass the biggest force possible for this push. Building valks would make this push less powerful even though it would shut down the muta harass. Many games in old TvZ came down to whether or not the zerg did enough damage with muta harass to weaken this gigantic push, this caused pro zergs to become amazing with mutas, and you see the results of many Ts sitting in their base getting picked apart. Before I continue, I must stress how unbelievably important zerg securing their 3rd is in ZvT. A zerg who gets their third denied or destroyed will almost without exception lose.

For a small peroid of time valk/goliath + MM pushes became very popular, but these builds were not the solution Ts were looking for. The creation of +1 5 rax(and later +1 4 rax) changed TvZ greatly+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/291203-tvz-1-5rax
. Now Ts applied a large amount of pressure while the mutalisks are out, and because of the pressure being applied they no longer needed to build many turrets because if the mutas did go and harass your main you would simply break their nat or deny their 3rd. Even though these builds cause the pre defiler timing push to be later and less strong, it doesn't matter because the Zerg has to commit so much defense to protecting themselves it works out that you are often in a better position compared to turtling for a big push. Another big reason as to why the Ts changed their strategy is the discovery of viable mech transitions. Before these mech transitions Ts would go bio all game long, and when the zerg got even upgrades plus ultralisks it would become extremely hard for the T to win. This is why Ts of old put so much emphasis on the pre defilier push, because they are at a slight disadvantage in the late game when going bio+ Show Spoiler +
this is sort of a half truth, SK terran(bio + vessals) pushes the mechanics of top pros to their limit, and if they lapse for a second it can often lose them the game, it is completely possible to compete with a Z late game army with SK terran
. With mech it is easier to consolidate any lead you might have, and it will maintain its strength throughout the entire late game.

I was really tired while writing this, when I read over it tomorrow I will probably fix a lot of things.
I'm a Crab made of men.
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-14 02:50:57
March 14 2014 02:28 GMT
#3794
Starlight wrote:
I'm finally watching a lot of old progamer games on YouTube (TL has indoctrinated me), and in TvZ, it's just puzzling to me. So many Terrans getting majorly f'ed up by big-time muta harass, while refusing to build any anti-air other than marines and turrets. It's like they would rather die than build any valks or wraiths. o_0

I understand that finally changed with popularity of 'Fantasy' type builds/'valkonic' builds, but still... why did it take so long to change? Can't imagine 'gosu' muta micro was that uncommon.
On March 14 2014 05:27 ninazerg wrote:
Hey guys, I've been watching a lot of replays, and I noticed that in PvT, a lot of Protosses get wrecked by fast fd and vulture harasses, so why do they refuse to make cannons? Cannons kill marines w/ ease, and in large numbers, are good against vultures, so why not just put like 6 cannons at each nexus?

I heart Nina-sarcasm. Hugs n' kisses, dear.

Of course, totally ignores the difference between mobile units (valks, wraiths) and static defense (cannons), but still, enjoyed it.


User was warned for being hilarious
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-14 02:53:29
March 14 2014 02:46 GMT
#3795
On March 14 2014 11:14 Reuental wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 14 2014 01:00 [[Starlight]] wrote:
Here's a Q... I'm finally watching a lot of old progamer games on YouTube (TL has indoctrinated me), and in TvZ, it's just puzzling to me. So many Terrans getting majorly f'ed up by big-time muta harass, while refusing to build any anti-air other than marines and turrets. It's like they would rather die than build any valks or wraiths. o_0

I understand that finally changed with popularity of 'Fantasy' type builds/'valkonic' builds, but still... why did it take so long to change? Can't imagine 'gosu' muta micro was that uncommon.



Ah, this is something you wouldn't get unless you watched TvZ evolve over the course of many years. This is my understanding of it.

TvZ strategy for a long time was based around doing one gigantic push before defilers came out, while this push is still a key part of TvZ strategy, Ts changed the way they about doing it. Before modern builds Ts would mostly turtle up and try to amass the biggest force possible for this push. Building valks would make this push less powerful even though it would shut down the muta harass. Many games in old TvZ came down to whether or not the zerg did enough damage with muta harass to weaken this gigantic push, this caused pro zergs to become amazing with mutas, and you see the results of [this] many Ts sitting in their base getting picked apart. Before I continue, I must stress how unbelievably important zerg securing their 3rd is in ZvT. A zerg who gets their third denied or destroyed will almost without exception lose.

For a small peroid of time valk/goliath + MM pushes became very popular, but these builds were not the solution Ts were looking for. The creation of +1 5 rax(and later +1 4 rax) changed TvZ greatly+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/291203-tvz-1-5rax
. Now Ts applied a large amount of pressure while the mutalisks are out, and because of the pressure being applied they no longer needed to build many turrets because if the mutas did go and harass your main you would simply break their nat or deny their 3rd. Even though these builds cause the pre defiler timing push to be later and less strong, it doesn't matter because the Zerg has to commit so much defense to protecting themselves it works out that you are often in a better position compared to turtling for a big push.

Another big reason as to why the Ts changed their strategy is the discovery of viable mech transitions. Before these mech transitions Ts would go bio all game long, and when the zerg got even upgrades plus ultralisks it would become extremely hard for the T to win. This is why Ts of old put so much emphasis on the pre defilier push, because they are at a slight disadvantage in the late game when going bio+ Show Spoiler +
this is sort of a half truth, SK terran(bio + vessals) pushes the mechanics of top pros to their limit, and if they lapse for a second it can often lose them the game, it is completely possible to compete with a Z late game army with SK terran
. With mech it is easier to consolidate any lead you might have, and it will maintain its strength throughout the entire late game.

I was really tired while writing this, when I read over it tomorrow I will probably fix a lot of things.



Wow, great post. And that would explain it (though I think I'd rather live and have a slightly less powerful push than die or get totally worked over before said push).

Thanks.

User was warned for being hilarious
BroodKingEXE
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States829 Posts
March 14 2014 05:46 GMT
#3796
On March 14 2014 06:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:
the biggest rule in starcraft is to spend as little as possible but achieve the most results. its better to defend your base barely than conpletely destroy their army by investing 6 cannons which arent going to help you fight later on.
your aim isnt to just defend against fd, you have to expand as well to get ahead. you just dont have the time or money to build an expansion, forge and cannons. only go all out defense if the opponent allins

This is a great post, day9 kinda of outlined this in his sidestepping podcast. If you build 6 cannons per expansion, you have spent the equivalent of 9 zealots per expansion. If your opponent does not, attack that expansion he can use the time you used to build cannons to gain an advantage via expanding, teching, or just getting a bigger army than you. This puts the ball in your court to make something happen, as opposed to when he was trying to take the initiative through harassment.
Playing Protoss = Opponent owned
Darkwhite
Profile Joined June 2007
Norway352 Posts
March 14 2014 08:08 GMT
#3797
Defending Mutalisk harass with Valkyries became popular because people learned to do the fairly tricky moving shot with Valkyries.
Darker than the sun's light; much stiller than the storm - slower than the lightning; just like the winter warm.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
March 14 2014 08:28 GMT
#3798
How do you do this trick? I never learned it
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
Cryoc
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany912 Posts
March 14 2014 08:49 GMT
#3799
On March 14 2014 17:28 puppykiller wrote:
How do you do this trick? I never learned it

As you fly towards the mutalisks, hit patrol in the opposite direction. You need the right angle and distance to the mutas otherwise it doesn't work.
http://www.twitch.tv/cryoc
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
March 14 2014 08:53 GMT
#3800
I thought valks glide after shooting its projectile where you direct the glide in the opposite direction?
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
Prev 1 188 189 190 191 192 487 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 14m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 155
OGKoka 143
ProTech132
SortOf 101
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 3069
Bisu 1105
hero 289
Light 90
EffOrt 89
Hm[arnc] 73
Backho 66
ToSsGirL 66
Soulkey 49
Rush 36
[ Show more ]
sSak 28
NotJumperer 26
sorry 26
Bale 25
Sharp 24
ZergMaN 21
Shinee 18
Nal_rA 12
GoRush 10
SilentControl 8
Dota 2
canceldota68
League of Legends
JimRising 417
Reynor44
Counter-Strike
shoxiejesuss980
olofmeister973
kennyS355
Other Games
singsing1154
ceh9623
Liquid`RaSZi539
Happy245
Fuzer 118
Mew2King83
Livibee81
crisheroes42
Sick31
ZerO(Twitch)0
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream68
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 13 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH319
• LUISG 14
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• iopq 5
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Upcoming Events
The PondCast
14m
KCM Race Survival
14m
WardiTV Team League
2h 14m
BASILISK vs Team Liquid
OSC
2h 14m
OSC
8h 14m
Replay Cast
14h 14m
WardiTV Team League
1d 2h
Big Brain Bouts
1d 7h
Fjant vs SortOf
YoungYakov vs Krystianer
Reynor vs HeRoMaRinE
RSL Revival
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
herO vs Rogue
WardiTV Team League
2 days
[ Show More ]
Platinum Heroes Events
2 days
BSL
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
ByuN vs Maru
MaxPax vs TriGGeR
WardiTV Team League
3 days
BSL
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Light vs Calm
Royal vs Mind
Wardi Open
4 days
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
OSC
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Rush vs PianO
Flash vs Speed
Replay Cast
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
BeSt vs Leta
Queen vs Jaedong
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-03-25
WardiTV Winter 2026
Underdog Cup #3

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 1
BSL Season 22
CSL Elite League 2026
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 1
ASL Season 21
Acropolis #4 - TS6
RSL Revival: Season 4
Nations Cup 2026
NationLESS Cup
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual

Upcoming

2026 Changsha Offline CUP
CSL Season 20: Qualifier 2
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
CCT Season 3 Global Finals
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.