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Jaedong vod analysis with pictures - Page 2

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
March 22 2011 21:09 GMT
#21
Really nice report! good job, more of these would be awesome!
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
March 22 2011 21:34 GMT
#22
wowow really nice job! keep it up!
Writer
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
March 22 2011 21:37 GMT
#23
Very nicely done!
▲ ▲ ▲
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
March 22 2011 22:48 GMT
#24
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^
Writer
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 22 2011 23:57 GMT
#25
On March 23 2011 05:47 nbaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 05:29 GHOSTCLAW wrote:

Iris chills out outside Jaedong's natural but does not attack. Four marines are not really viable against a sunken and zerglings, so I'm not really sure why he moved out at all. Maybe he was looking to intercept any scouts?


this is for pressure jaedong probably knew (either from overlord or ling scouts) that the five marines were moving out, and forced jaedong to make a sunken, which costs money+1 less drone. The other option for jaedong for defense is more lings, which isn't very larvae efficient. Moreover, the five marines would also allow for iris to scout an all-in ling attack off of 2 hatches, and prepare a response for it to save his main, throw up bunkers, and otherwise react properly.

Effectively, iris moved out in order to prevent jaedong from becoming too greedy, and to scout and add pressure. this concept will make a huge amount of sense to anyone who either watched day9 cast bw, and/or has seen some of his lessons from sc2.

great job though ^^


It's my fault for not getting a shot of it, but Jaedong had already made a sunken to fend off the bunker rush earlier in the game, so the marines didn't really force Jaedong to do anything more as far as I could tell.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm really glad you guys liked it. I do plan on doing more and maybe trying to analyze some games that are more exciting than this one was (though from a learning perspective I've heard that easy victories are the most instructive). I'll definitely take into account any games you guys recommend since I was basically just clicking at random on TLPD for this one.

Hahaha "4 marines is not really viable to kill a sunken and 4 lings" no, no it is not Intercepting scouts and just generally knowing he had map control at that instance was enough. If he were afraid of a ling-all-in he would have just left an SCV or something there (but he walled so who the hell would ling all-in? Even if it's not 'tight' it's still impossible to attack at that stage). Purpose of those marines is just to keep JD in his main so that he can't take a free expo When he moved them back it was because enough time had passed that he didn't want to just lose them for nothing. JD isn't gonna make lings just to hope there's marines for him to kill, but he is eventually going to get lings anyway.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
March 22 2011 23:59 GMT
#26
Really great idea, love the screenshots and stuff.
As suggested by someone previously, looking at JD vs Flash on Tau Cross from WCG would be great, because, we have Vods and the replay of this game, making analysis much easier!
Besides the fact that the game is epic and JD wins!
Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
March 23 2011 00:04 GMT
#27
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Modesty00
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria262 Posts
March 23 2011 01:07 GMT
#28
On March 22 2011 15:47 punkideas wrote:
If you haven't already, check out the old (BW) Day[9] dailies. Those are all great pro VOD strategic analyses.

I found only sc2 so pls link
A. I. Bots 1x1 https://youtu.be/2iff34KYfMg
Tomken
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway1144 Posts
March 23 2011 02:13 GMT
#29
On March 23 2011 10:07 Modesty00 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 15:47 punkideas wrote:
If you haven't already, check out the old (BW) Day[9] dailies. Those are all great pro VOD strategic analyses.

I found only sc2 so pls link

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154
MBCGame HERO FIGHTING!!!~
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 23 2011 02:35 GMT
#30
On March 23 2011 09:04 Grobyc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.


Ok, I'll try one next game. I don't really feel competent to provide a comprehensive analysis of a long high level game but if you guys are willing to help out by correcting and adding to my analysis, I do agree it will be more useful. Thanks for the feedback!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
March 23 2011 02:40 GMT
#31
Of course. Sharing your thoughts with others helps you learn much faster than keeping to yourself.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
March 23 2011 02:50 GMT
#32
On March 23 2011 11:35 nbaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 09:04 Grobyc wrote:
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.


Ok, I'll try one next game. I don't really feel competent to provide a comprehensive analysis of a long high level game but if you guys are willing to help out by correcting and adding to my analysis, I do agree it will be more useful. Thanks for the feedback!


yeah please do! it can only help you out!
Writer
Fiel
Profile Joined March 2010
United States587 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 07:14:36
March 23 2011 07:07 GMT
#33
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:


[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.










gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 08:11:39
March 23 2011 08:09 GMT
#34
On March 23 2011 16:07 Fiel wrote:
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMpeiAC0l0

[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.












LOL. Nice work man! We need more, not less, of this!
BUT please next screen shot analysis like this, please limit to JD win games! this is a JD thread after all
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
orangeshines
Profile Joined September 2008
United Kingdom202 Posts
March 23 2011 12:37 GMT
#35
Very well written, nice work. Thank you very much for the effort
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 23 2011 15:30 GMT
#36
On March 23 2011 17:09 gongryong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 16:07 Fiel wrote:
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMpeiAC0l0

[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.












LOL. Nice work man! We need more, not less, of this!
BUT please next screen shot analysis like this, please limit to JD win games! this is a JD thread after all


Thanks Fiel, this is great! I certainly don't mind you posting your analysis here, but why not start a new topic? It would let more people see it and comment on it.
AfecksN
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom53 Posts
March 23 2011 19:21 GMT
#37
Really nice analysis; never clicked before to me the lack of scouting with a bunker rush using first scv, also I loved the detail on the positioning of the flank (army positioning for lurker-ling has always been a weak point of my play :3).

The only thing I'd say to be careful of is assumptions; what made you think he wasn't planning 2hatch lurk from beginning and that he was planning 3hat muta? (I haven't yet watched the vod btw)

But that's a small (maybe invalid) niggle; overall a really nice analysis with attention both to micro and macro.
BW Commentator~ http://www.youtube.com/user/AfecksN
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