• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:45
CEST 02:45
KST 09:45
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting10[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET6Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO85.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)80Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition32
StarCraft 2
General
Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad The New Patch Killed Mech! TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting Stellar Fest: StarCraft II returns to Canada herO Talks: Poor Performance at EWC and more...
Tourneys
SC2's Safe House 2 - October 18 & 19 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $1,200 WardiTV October (Oct 21st-31st) WardiTV Mondays RSL Offline Finals Dates + Ticket Sales!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 496 Endless Infection Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BSL Season 21 BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW caster Sayle BSL Team A vs Koreans - Sat-Sun 16:00 CET
Tourneys
Azhi's Colosseum - Anonymous Tournament [ASL20] Semifinal B [Megathread] Daily Proleagues SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN
Strategy
Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Relatively freeroll strategies Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640}
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Series you have seen recently... Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2026 Football Thread MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
The Heroism of Pepe the Fro…
Peanutsc
Rocket League: Traits, Abili…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1517 users

Jaedong vod analysis with pictures

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 22 2011 06:13 GMT
#1
Hi everyone. I was reading Ver's guide about improving in Broodwar and one thing he really emphasizes is watching and analyzing vods of progamers. I'm a zerg player, so I figured it made sense to start with watching Jaedong and analyzing his builds and style. Note that I picked the vod at random for the most part and I was not looking for an 'epic' game, but rather one where a build order was solidly executed. Please note that I am not a good player trying to teach anyone about how to play Broodwar but a fairly bad one making observations and trying to understand the thought process of progamers. Any criticism or correction is more than welcome.

So without further ado, here's Jaedong vs. Iris on Fighting Spirit.

[image loading]
Jaedong spawns in the bottom left on Fighting Spirit. He sends his scouting overlord straight up, the direction with a natural between the two mains. Iris is at the top right, so Jaedong will see him with his first scout.

[image loading]
Jaedong is going for the standard 12 hatch.

[image loading]
Iris makes a wall with a depot and 2 barracks at his natural choke. He is going to be going for early game pressure. Jaedong's overlord arrives shortly after, allowing him to respond to Iris's build.

[image loading]
Jaedong chooses not to go for the standard 3rd hatchery after spawning pool. From this, he can go 2 hatch muta, 2 hatch lurker, or an all-in speedling build.

[image loading]
Iris starts a bunker at Jaedong's natural expansion. Jaedong pulls five drones to defend against it. Fewer drones won't do enough damage to delay the bunker rush, but more drones will put Jaedong behind economically.

[image loading]
Jaedong loses a couple drones trying to delay the bunker and places a sunken colony at his natural expansion. The bunker finishes and Jaedong holds his drones back until his first 4 lings pop and then surrounds them and drives off the bunker rush.

[image loading]
After seeing only 4 lings from Jaedong and having already walled off his natural (not ling tight), Iris feels comfortable putting up a command center at his natural to try to keep up economically. He has not scouted Jaedong's main, so he doesn't know that Jaedong is playing non-standard (one of the weaknesses of using your first SCV to make a bunker).

[image loading]
Iris moves back out with four more marines to put a bit of pressure on Jaedong.

[image loading]
Jaedong chooses to go 2 hatch lurker in response to Iris's bunker rush. He knows that Iris's scans will be delayed and his sunken + lings can deny any SCV scouting, so Iris will have no way of figuring out Jaedong's strategy until the lurkers have nearly finished.

[image loading]
Iris chills out outside Jaedong's natural but does not attack. Four marines are not really viable against a sunken and zerglings, so I'm not really sure why he moved out at all. Maybe he was looking to intercept any scouts?

[image loading]
Iris leaves without doing anything with his marines.

[image loading]
Iris is starting his Engineering Bay and he just finished his academy. He still thinks that Jaedong is going for Mutalisks so he is not scrambling to set up turrets and bunkers to protect against the incoming lurker attack.

[image loading]
Engineering bay finishes and Iris starts building his comstat stations.

[image loading]
Jaedong's hydralisks are finished. He will be morphing them into lurkers shortly, but he wants to get them out of his natural and nearer the middle of the map. This serves two purposes: it shortens the amount of time it will take for his lurkers to reach Iris's natural once they finish and it makes it much less probable that Iris will scan them; though a scan in his main will still reveal the tech, Iris won't know the timing.

[image loading]
Lurker tech finishes and Jaedong begins to morph three lurkers in the middle of the map.

[image loading]
Iris finally scans Jaedong's man and learns what's going on. He will need to set up a bunker and a turret at his natural choke to defend the incoming attack.

[image loading]
Jaedong cleverly loops his zerglings up to the 12 o'clock expansion to set up a flank when he moves in with his lurkers.

[image loading]
Iris starts his bunker. The barracks at Iris's natural choke block him from placing it where he normally would, so he has to build further forward.

[image loading]
The awkward bunker placement plays right into Jaedong's hand as he sees it with his overlord and sends in the lings he placed at 12 to snipe the SCV and stop the bunker building.

[image loading]
Jaedong's lurkers finish just in time to support Jaedong's zerglings, sandwiching Iris's units between his own.

[image loading]
Caught on a bridge between lurkers and zerglings, the medics and marines have no hope of survival.

[image loading]
The wall at Iris's natural means Jaedong cannot walk directly in with his lurkers, but it also means that any reinforcements Iris might try to make are instantly impaled on lurker spines. Iris puts up a desperation bunker but Jaedong runs in zerglings and it quickly goes down.

[image loading]
With no units and no detection, Iris has no choice but to gg as Jaedong walks his lurkers into his mineral line.

Ok, that's all I've got for now. I don't feel that was particularly analytical, but I enjoyed watching and commenting on the game anyways, so hopefully I'll be able to keep doing this and learn more about how progamers play zerg!
punkideas
Profile Joined May 2010
United States20 Posts
March 22 2011 06:47 GMT
#2
If you haven't already, check out the old (BW) Day[9] dailies. Those are all great pro VOD strategic analyses.
FyRe_DragOn
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
Canada2056 Posts
March 22 2011 06:52 GMT
#3
awesome initiative man, if u do one of zvp ill comment on it too
aka DragOn[NaS]
gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
March 22 2011 08:45 GMT
#4
Do some JvF or JvS or JvB man!
Just make sure JD wins them. Great effort
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
jazzbassmatt
Profile Joined August 2010
United States566 Posts
March 22 2011 08:52 GMT
#5
That was really nice analysis, actually. Not too complex and you seemed to understand and easily explain the most important parts of the game.
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium6718 Posts
March 22 2011 12:28 GMT
#6
thx man,really enjoy MORE PLZ
shucklesors
Profile Joined May 2010
Singapore1176 Posts
March 22 2011 12:31 GMT
#7
On March 22 2011 17:45 gongryong wrote:
Do some JvF or JvS or JvB man!
Just make sure JD wins them. Great effort


LOL HAHA, YES I SECOND THIS.
On topic: I found it very simple and attractive, keep it this way if you're still doing more it's great! Thanks.
popzags
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Poland604 Posts
March 22 2011 12:57 GMT
#8
A good point to start from man, really nice analysis on a simple game. Next time, maybe try to pick a longer and more complicated struggle - figuring out the metagame and mindgame twists is essential to create decent strategic commentaries.
What what the the fuck fuck? That blew my mind so much, I doubled every word in the phrase 'What the fuck' to get: 'What what the the fuck fuck my what the the fuck fucking what did the drop dropship medivac where in the what in the hell?' - Day[9]
e_i_pi_1_0
Profile Joined September 2009
933 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 15:54:55
March 22 2011 13:10 GMT
#9
On March 22 2011 21:31 shucklesors wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 17:45 gongryong wrote:
Do some JvF or JvS or JvB man!
Just make sure JD wins them. Great effort


LOL HAHA, YES I SECOND THIS.
On topic: I found it very simple and attractive, keep it this way if you're still doing more it's great! Thanks.

I really liked this. I really liked the layout and how it was to the point.

If you plan to do more, a game I would like to see analyzed would be the JD vs Flash game on Tau Cross from WCG, JD vs Midas on Odd-Eye from MSL, or that JD vs Flash game on Rush Hour 3.
Jaedong and Hwaseung Oz fan.
leviathan400
Profile Joined November 2006
United Kingdom393 Posts
March 22 2011 13:24 GMT
#10
Nice work
:o
Astrapto
Profile Joined December 2010
United States69 Posts
March 22 2011 13:34 GMT
#11
Nice job dude, thanks for posting. But Iris spawned top left
ALLEN
thrslimde
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany57 Posts
March 22 2011 14:51 GMT
#12
Great analysis, really enjoyerd it. Do a protoss game next
Slardar
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada7593 Posts
March 22 2011 15:24 GMT
#13
Good work! This game was pretty open and shut case though. I'd recommend doing the EPIC JVStork which took an hour, but you might not live to finish it.
BarneyEX
Profile Joined March 2009
Malaysia98 Posts
March 22 2011 15:48 GMT
#14
good job man, keep up the hard work.
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
March 22 2011 18:03 GMT
#15
Good read, insightful as well.
xxpack09
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States2160 Posts
March 22 2011 19:45 GMT
#16
Good post, I enjoyed the read
NEgroidZerg
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States244 Posts
March 22 2011 20:00 GMT
#17
this was a great read would love to see more
Yeah
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 20:30:15
March 22 2011 20:29 GMT
#18

Iris chills out outside Jaedong's natural but does not attack. Four marines are not really viable against a sunken and zerglings, so I'm not really sure why he moved out at all. Maybe he was looking to intercept any scouts?


this is for pressure jaedong probably knew (either from overlord or ling scouts) that the five marines were moving out, and forced jaedong to make a sunken, which costs money+1 less drone. The other option for jaedong for defense is more lings, which isn't very larvae efficient. Moreover, the five marines would also allow for iris to scout an all-in ling attack off of 2 hatches, and prepare a response for it to save his main, throw up bunkers, and otherwise react properly.

Effectively, iris moved out in order to prevent jaedong from becoming too greedy, and to scout and add pressure. this concept will make a huge amount of sense to anyone who either watched day9 cast bw, and/or has seen some of his lessons from sc2.

great job though ^^
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 22 2011 20:47 GMT
#19
On March 23 2011 05:29 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
Show nested quote +

Iris chills out outside Jaedong's natural but does not attack. Four marines are not really viable against a sunken and zerglings, so I'm not really sure why he moved out at all. Maybe he was looking to intercept any scouts?


this is for pressure jaedong probably knew (either from overlord or ling scouts) that the five marines were moving out, and forced jaedong to make a sunken, which costs money+1 less drone. The other option for jaedong for defense is more lings, which isn't very larvae efficient. Moreover, the five marines would also allow for iris to scout an all-in ling attack off of 2 hatches, and prepare a response for it to save his main, throw up bunkers, and otherwise react properly.

Effectively, iris moved out in order to prevent jaedong from becoming too greedy, and to scout and add pressure. this concept will make a huge amount of sense to anyone who either watched day9 cast bw, and/or has seen some of his lessons from sc2.

great job though ^^


It's my fault for not getting a shot of it, but Jaedong had already made a sunken to fend off the bunker rush earlier in the game, so the marines didn't really force Jaedong to do anything more as far as I could tell.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm really glad you guys liked it. I do plan on doing more and maybe trying to analyze some games that are more exciting than this one was (though from a learning perspective I've heard that easy victories are the most instructive). I'll definitely take into account any games you guys recommend since I was basically just clicking at random on TLPD for this one.
blubbdavid
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Switzerland2412 Posts
March 22 2011 21:07 GMT
#20
I freaking love it. More JD!! Especially against Flash.
What do you desire? Money? Glory? Power? Revenge? Or something that surpasses all other? Whatever you desire - that is here. Tower of God ¦¦Nutella, drink of the Gods
TheNessman
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4158 Posts
March 22 2011 21:09 GMT
#21
Really nice report! good job, more of these would be awesome!
~~! youtube.com/xmungam1 !~~
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
March 22 2011 21:34 GMT
#22
wowow really nice job! keep it up!
Writer
Taekwon
Profile Joined May 2010
United States8155 Posts
March 22 2011 21:37 GMT
#23
Very nicely done!
▲ ▲ ▲
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
March 22 2011 22:48 GMT
#24
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^
Writer
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 22 2011 23:57 GMT
#25
On March 23 2011 05:47 nbaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 05:29 GHOSTCLAW wrote:

Iris chills out outside Jaedong's natural but does not attack. Four marines are not really viable against a sunken and zerglings, so I'm not really sure why he moved out at all. Maybe he was looking to intercept any scouts?


this is for pressure jaedong probably knew (either from overlord or ling scouts) that the five marines were moving out, and forced jaedong to make a sunken, which costs money+1 less drone. The other option for jaedong for defense is more lings, which isn't very larvae efficient. Moreover, the five marines would also allow for iris to scout an all-in ling attack off of 2 hatches, and prepare a response for it to save his main, throw up bunkers, and otherwise react properly.

Effectively, iris moved out in order to prevent jaedong from becoming too greedy, and to scout and add pressure. this concept will make a huge amount of sense to anyone who either watched day9 cast bw, and/or has seen some of his lessons from sc2.

great job though ^^


It's my fault for not getting a shot of it, but Jaedong had already made a sunken to fend off the bunker rush earlier in the game, so the marines didn't really force Jaedong to do anything more as far as I could tell.

Thanks for the feedback everyone! I'm really glad you guys liked it. I do plan on doing more and maybe trying to analyze some games that are more exciting than this one was (though from a learning perspective I've heard that easy victories are the most instructive). I'll definitely take into account any games you guys recommend since I was basically just clicking at random on TLPD for this one.

Hahaha "4 marines is not really viable to kill a sunken and 4 lings" no, no it is not Intercepting scouts and just generally knowing he had map control at that instance was enough. If he were afraid of a ling-all-in he would have just left an SCV or something there (but he walled so who the hell would ling all-in? Even if it's not 'tight' it's still impossible to attack at that stage). Purpose of those marines is just to keep JD in his main so that he can't take a free expo When he moved them back it was because enough time had passed that he didn't want to just lose them for nothing. JD isn't gonna make lings just to hope there's marines for him to kill, but he is eventually going to get lings anyway.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Armathai
Profile Joined October 2007
1023 Posts
March 22 2011 23:59 GMT
#26
Really great idea, love the screenshots and stuff.
As suggested by someone previously, looking at JD vs Flash on Tau Cross from WCG would be great, because, we have Vods and the replay of this game, making analysis much easier!
Besides the fact that the game is epic and JD wins!
Looking for ArcticCerebrate formerly from @USEast
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
March 23 2011 00:04 GMT
#27
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
Modesty00
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria262 Posts
March 23 2011 01:07 GMT
#28
On March 22 2011 15:47 punkideas wrote:
If you haven't already, check out the old (BW) Day[9] dailies. Those are all great pro VOD strategic analyses.

I found only sc2 so pls link
A. I. Bots 1x1 https://youtu.be/2iff34KYfMg
Tomken
Profile Joined January 2010
Norway1144 Posts
March 23 2011 02:13 GMT
#29
On March 23 2011 10:07 Modesty00 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 15:47 punkideas wrote:
If you haven't already, check out the old (BW) Day[9] dailies. Those are all great pro VOD strategic analyses.

I found only sc2 so pls link

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=104154
MBCGame HERO FIGHTING!!!~
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 23 2011 02:35 GMT
#30
On March 23 2011 09:04 Grobyc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.


Ok, I'll try one next game. I don't really feel competent to provide a comprehensive analysis of a long high level game but if you guys are willing to help out by correcting and adding to my analysis, I do agree it will be more useful. Thanks for the feedback!
Grobyc
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Canada18410 Posts
March 23 2011 02:40 GMT
#31
Of course. Sharing your thoughts with others helps you learn much faster than keeping to yourself.
If you watch Godzilla backwards it's about a benevolent lizard who helps rebuild a city and then moonwalks into the ocean.
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
March 23 2011 02:50 GMT
#32
On March 23 2011 11:35 nbaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 09:04 Grobyc wrote:
On March 23 2011 07:48 swanized wrote:
solid analysis but I find it hard to comment considering the strategy you analyzed, try doing something thatl eads to a more complex mid/late-game next time^^

yeah I agree. It was well done (a VOD with commentary would be kind of cool too), but I was hoping for a longer game with more decision making from the players.


Ok, I'll try one next game. I don't really feel competent to provide a comprehensive analysis of a long high level game but if you guys are willing to help out by correcting and adding to my analysis, I do agree it will be more useful. Thanks for the feedback!


yeah please do! it can only help you out!
Writer
Fiel
Profile Joined March 2010
United States587 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 07:14:36
March 23 2011 07:07 GMT
#33
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:


[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.










gongryong
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Korea (South)1430 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 08:11:39
March 23 2011 08:09 GMT
#34
On March 23 2011 16:07 Fiel wrote:
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMpeiAC0l0

[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.












LOL. Nice work man! We need more, not less, of this!
BUT please next screen shot analysis like this, please limit to JD win games! this is a JD thread after all
JAEDONG ÜBERBONJWA!
orangeshines
Profile Joined September 2008
United Kingdom202 Posts
March 23 2011 12:37 GMT
#35
Very well written, nice work. Thank you very much for the effort
nbaker
Profile Joined July 2009
United States1341 Posts
March 23 2011 15:30 GMT
#36
On March 23 2011 17:09 gongryong wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 23 2011 16:07 Fiel wrote:
Hope I'm not pissing on nbaker's parade here, but this looked so fun I decided to do one myself.

I really don't play Brood War, I just love to watch it. Doing this analysis makes the game so much more clear. If I had to guess how good my analysis is, I'd say I'd be a D or D+. I do play high plat Z in SC2.

Please correct me if I make mistakes!

+ Show Spoiler [Flash vs. RorO @ Fortress SE] +

MAP:
Fortress SE

PLAYERS:
Flash (T) @ 9
RorO (Z) @ 3

VOD:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpMpeiAC0l0

[image loading]
Z opens with 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas.

[image loading]
T opens with 1 depot 1 rax wall in. I'm not really sure if that's ling tight or not. Standard ZvT so far. But Flash is at a small disadvantage in these positions. Z is cross map and his marines spawn outside the wall - a minor annoyance for a standard 1 rax FE build.

[image loading]
Flash scouts at 12 and then at 3 to find his opponent. He sees the lair timing. It's absolutely critical that Flash keeps this SCV alive until lair finishes so he can find what tech path Z is going to choose. This will also save on scans if he can keep the SCV alive and it means he won't have to sacrifice his vulture later on (also textbook ZvT). Keeping the SCV here will also force Z to build his tech choice at the natural thus limiting his options.

[image loading]
After scouting a 2 hatch lair, Flash doesn't feel comfortable building the CC directly at the natural (could be ling all in), so he constructs it inside the wall and gets his fact up simultaneously. He builds a vulture and sends it west only to meet a sunken.

[image loading]
Flash sees the lair complete and, not noticing any tech in the main, scouts around the sunken at the natural and sees the spire timing. He also sees that RorO created a third hatch in between his natural and main. His SCV dies shortly after returning to Z's main. Note that even if his SCV had died, Flash could have suicided his vulture to see the Spire.

[image loading]
With no ling all ins on the way, Flash feels safe expanding to his natural and continuing with his normal anti 2 hatch muta.

[image loading]
After RorO has his spire done and mutalisks on the way, he creates a hydra den and begins lurker aspect.

[image loading]
RorO's muta harass is largely ineffective. Flash already has missile turrets everywhere and marines guarding where missile turrets aren't. All RorO can do is pick off stray SCVs. All those mutalisks only pick off about 4 SCVs. Flash is way ahead at this point having successfully blocked the harass. RorO never takes a third and instead creates more lurkers and lings.

[image loading]
Once Flash knows he's perfectly safe from the muta harass, he pushes out with his first marines. RorO's goal is to now pick off the entire marine assault. The best way to do this is to make sure that you only attack marines while they are perpendicular to the mutalisks. Unfortunately, RorO never gets this chance.

[image loading]
Instead, he sneaks behind the marines and burrows his lurkers in the middle of the map in an attempt to destroy reinforcements. Although he kills a few reinforcements, Flash retreats his forward marines and sandwiches the lurkers. Flash should feel thankful that he pulled his marines back. His two tanks were almost sniped by the mutalisks until his forward marines were able to save one tank from destruction.

[image loading]
After his lurkers become largely useless, RorO then threatens backstabbing. However, Flash has so many marines that stimmed marines again sandwich the lurkers between their guns and the souther wall. RorO is crushed and is unable to backstab effectively. While his other lurker/ling forces are being destroyed, RorO sneaks out more lurker/lings and hides them in the north.

Of course, the backstabbing here isn't attempting to do any damage. RorO is trying to buy time so he can get defilers out to stop the inevitable marine/siege force crushing his base. However, Flash is forcing RorO to make a difficult decision - Tech or Army? RorO can't do both, and this puts him in a difficult position.

Hiding the lurker/ling in the north is a good option for RorO. Now he finally has a choice. Should he attempt to sandwich Flash outside of his natural OR should he actually perform the backstab?

[image loading]
He's going to have to make a decision soon. Flash is shelling the natural, and four sunkens will fall very quickly.

[image loading]
In an act of desperation, RorO decides to all in his opponent with lurker/ling/muta.

[image loading]
However, because Flash was able to save so many scans from the excellent scouting beforehand, he was able to scan and kill every lurker but 3. Even though these lurkers are a pest, Flash knows that RorO doesn't have a third considering the number of forces he created. All he has to do is push and win.

[image loading]
RorO is able to have more lurkers to defend his natural, but it's too little too late. Flash has already broken the front and there's little in his way to stop him.

[image loading]
Although RorO was able to kill lots of SCVs, it's inconsequential to the game. He already lost even before this act of desperation happened, and Flash is hardly concerned.

[image loading]
Notice no defiler mound. Zerg taps out.

Throughout the game there was no point in which there was any doubt Flash would succeed past the 4 minute mark. I'd call this game domination.












LOL. Nice work man! We need more, not less, of this!
BUT please next screen shot analysis like this, please limit to JD win games! this is a JD thread after all


Thanks Fiel, this is great! I certainly don't mind you posting your analysis here, but why not start a new topic? It would let more people see it and comment on it.
AfecksN
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom53 Posts
March 23 2011 19:21 GMT
#37
Really nice analysis; never clicked before to me the lack of scouting with a bunker rush using first scv, also I loved the detail on the positioning of the flank (army positioning for lurker-ling has always been a weak point of my play :3).

The only thing I'd say to be careful of is assumptions; what made you think he wasn't planning 2hatch lurk from beginning and that he was planning 3hat muta? (I haven't yet watched the vod btw)

But that's a small (maybe invalid) niggle; overall a really nice analysis with attention both to micro and macro.
BW Commentator~ http://www.youtube.com/user/AfecksN
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Safe House 2
17:00
Playoffs
TriGGeR vs Cham
Astrea vs TBD
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
PiGStarcraft434
Nathanias 94
ProTech72
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 699
Dota 2
monkeys_forever391
League of Legends
JimRising 315
Cuddl3bear2
Super Smash Bros
AZ_Axe147
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor180
Other Games
summit1g11109
fl0m725
Maynarde203
fpsfer 3
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 70
• Berry_CruncH33
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV298
League of Legends
• Doublelift5421
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
9h 15m
Monday Night Weeklies
15h 15m
Replay Cast
22h 15m
WardiTV Invitational
1d 10h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 13h
PiGosaur Monday
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
RSL Revival
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Snow vs Soma
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
CrankTV Team League
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS2
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.