I started to post something, then I realized that the B.O or whatever really depends on each matchup, on the maps, on player's skill level and so on. Everything I tried to say is too general.

Unorthodox

63 Posts

October 30 2004 04:12 GMT

#22

I consider the "opening" to be everything before you scout your opponent. Once you scout your opponent, you should then make any adjustments necessary in order to counter their opening. Of course, in certain matchups you generally have to wait a while before you can determine your opponent's strategy (so your opening lasts a bit longer, but you can still make some adjustments based on what you've seen). As for build orders, I don't personally use them (which is partly a result of me being a random player) and I believe that it is more important to have a solid understanding of the game so that you can adapt to an aggressive strategy in an efficient manner. By "aggressive strategy" I mean any style of play that focuses on any aspect of the game more than usual (attacking, teching, expanding, powering, upgrading, etc). The importance of build orders also depends a lot on the matchup, and how conservative your opponent plays.

Anyhow, nice post Shadow

Splinter

United States188 Posts

October 30 2004 05:37 GMT

#23

Zerg build orders usually don't go much past what support your build your first hatch and pool at. After that what you do usually depends on what your opponent is doing.

Protoss and Terran build orders can go deeper because they can assure their safety longer by walling in or holding rines/zeals on the ramp.

zero89

United States295 Posts

October 30 2004 08:05 GMT

#24

when will Yellow vs Boxer game played?

RuGbUg

United States2347 Posts

October 30 2004 09:35 GMT

#25

On October 30 2004 14:37 Splinter wrote:
Zerg build orders usually don't go much past what support your build your first hatch and pool at. After that what you do usually depends on what your opponent is doing.

Protoss and Terran build orders can go deeper because they can assure their safety longer by walling in or holding rines/zeals on the ramp.

or, that it doesn't matter what happens because all zerg build orders branch off of a lair for the most part.

froZen_wYnd

Canada270 Posts

October 30 2004 11:15 GMT

#26

nice insights

lol if i were to write the whole thing, it'd be like pages and pages ;D gj

Cambium

United States16368 Posts

October 30 2004 11:28 GMT

#27

Excellent post Shadow.

AMD_STorM

China50 Posts

October 30 2004 12:04 GMT

#28

pvz is very dependent on your build order and how you play it.

and yes in the same way toss can control the zerg's build order very strongly

karelen

Sweden2407 Posts

October 30 2004 13:07 GMT

#29

build orders analysed in a fashion similar to chess openings. very nice work shadow

RuGbUg

United States2347 Posts

October 30 2004 13:28 GMT

#30

On October 30 2004 21:04 AMD_STorM wrote:
pvz is very dependent on your build order and how you play it.

and yes in the same way toss can control the zerg's build order very strongly

i.. what?

suxN

Finland1167 Posts

October 30 2004 15:45 GMT

#31

i think opening is time before you make forces, for terran example: TvP, opening is until you have made a tank or vultures or dropship or whatever.

Splinter

United States188 Posts

October 30 2004 17:24 GMT

#32

After thinking about it more, I believe the reason Zerg don't really have build orders is because once the pool is finished the Zerg has to decide whether larva should be used for lings or drones, and that depends on what is going on in the game. Drone count influences when certain tech choices will be made. For instance, if you are getting bunker rushed with a lot of early pressure ZvT, you aren't going to be able to lair as early as you would against a Terran tech build.

ShadowMaster

United States238 Posts

November 01 2004 12:25 GMT

#33

Although I know what you are saying about Protoss being able to influence the Zerg BO a lot, I think that ultimately it is all still up to the Zerg. True, Protoss can rush and force Zergling production, etc, but that is really only if Zerg allows it by doing an early expansion or creating a similar weakness. If the Zerg doesn't want the Protoss to rush him, he can play any number of one-base strategies including 9-pools.
It is because of this "Zerg factor" that I was examining the Reaver + Corsair/Goon strategy, in which Protoss very aggressively tries to change the pace of the game and struggles to have the controlling hand. In many cases the very act of fighting for the control, which Zerg normally gets naturally against Protoss, will take the Zerg out of his game. But then, this is a different way of playing Protoss and may not be better or worse; only more novel and unexpected.

indecision

Germany818 Posts

November 07 2004 20:37 GMT

#34

I think that the BO doesnt go further than to determine whether you go Bio or Metal at the beginning. After that you'll be forced to adjust anyways.

jotabeans

United States28 Posts

November 17 2004 07:23 GMT

#35

yeah i definitely agree

you have to have some sort of mold to follow, but you need to UNDERSTAND why the pros in the replays you are watching make minor tweaks to their build order in certain situations

LegendaryDreams

Canada1350 Posts

November 17 2004 07:38 GMT

#36

Very nice post ShadowMaster, props to you. ~

homoerectus_

149 Posts

November 17 2004 09:00 GMT

#37

On October 30 2004 01:08 ToKoreaWithLove wrote:
Impressive post Shadow. However, I think zerg/terran is a lot more controllable than classic play has led us to belive. Just take a look at all July vs oov games, esp the ones from the bo5 in last OSL. July refused to play defensively and oov suddenly realized his whole knowledge of tvz was reduced to nothing when facing a totally different opponent.

This reminds me of Fischer v Spassky, Game 6, Reykjavik, 1972 World Championship Match.

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