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I think it's obvious in most situations science vessels are the preferable choice, but I think that there must be some situations in which a ghost would be better. However, because we are used to getting vessels as our automatic choice, we may be short changing ourselves in some games.
Vessels
-Easy to reinforce your army since they can fly over terrain
-Don't need covert ops (so very slightly easier to tech to)
-EMP affects both Arbiters, and enemy high templar (which are an equally large threat)
-units under the arbiter are also affected
-A group of arbiters clustered together only need one EMP
-Defensive Matrix is a very useful spell.
-Detect
Ghosts
-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
-Lockdown is a guaranteed hit, unlike EMP
-Ghosts can transition into other play, like nukes
-Ghosts prevent a carrier transition (because lockdown is so effective vs carriers)
-Ghosts can lockdown shuttles and reavers
-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
-Ghosts add to your damage output, however slightly, at least vs Zealots.
-Usually guarantee the death of the arbiter.
So if you haven't noticed, the main concern seems to be that vessels counter high templar, and ghosts don't (well they can shoot high templar, but probably not before they storm. Vultures are more effective for that.)
However, I want people in this thread to try and think of situations where they'd rather go ghosts than vessels. That way when you see that situation in a real game, you'll actually be able to try it instead of auto getting vessels.
Situations I can think of which are good for ghosts
-low gas (ie enemy won't have as many templars, and you won't have as much to spare for vessels)
-a place to build a forward barracks (maps that will allow you to reinforce your army with ghosts more easily)
-an enemy who is going both arbiters and carriers
-an enemy that uses a lot of shuttles
-an enemy who is good at dodging EMPs
Please share ideas you might have in this thread.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I remember a thread a while ago talking about the viability of using ghosts for defense against recalls. With vessels, a Terran must constantly be patrolling the perimeter of his bases with vessels in order to try to EMP. However, as mentioned in your post the EMP can be dodged, though even if it hits the Arbiter can fly away to live another day. A single ghost with lockdown could lock the arbiter down as soon as it gets into turret range, thus ending the Arbiter's life.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
You should watch some Boxer games.
I think the most effective use I've seen for ghost/lockdown is to stop a recall. Just have one ghost chilling in your main to lockdown the arbiter when it comes. Otherwise, I think they are really just a gimmicky unit. Let me address each of your 'pros':
-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
In other words, very gas heavy.
-Lockdown is a guaranteed hit, unlike EMP
On the other hand, EMP affects an area.
-Ghosts can transition into other play, like nukes
Nukes are even more gimmicky than lockdown...
-Ghosts prevent a carrier transition (because lockdown is so effective vs carriers)
Probably true, but not really a justification since mass ground with arbiter support is more common anyway.
-Ghosts can lockdown shuttles and reavers
By the time you have ghost tech, there shouldn't be any reavers in play.
-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
Makes them harder for you to click as well :p Also, I'm not sure why it matters if it's harder for the enemy to spot them...
-Ghosts add to your damage output, however slightly, at least vs Zealots.
Negligible.
I think ghosts are in much the same category as queens at the moment. Pretty good when you're theorycrafting, but not so good in practice due to high gas cost, high micro/APM requirements, and often situation-specific usefulness.
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i think ghosts are too fragile to move out with your main army in a push
however, i think they are more effective than vessels in stopping recalls into your base, as it will guarantee a dead arbiter. the only trouble with that is that you have to target the arbiter itself instead of targetting near it like you would with emp.
its hardly a matter of inviability - the economic effect of going ghosts is so small in late game when arbiters will be around where you have 3-4+ bases that im sure you will be fine mixing some ghosts in. but yeah, having ghosts in their own hotkey to move around with your main army is too much of a pain/risk, and you need the vessel's detection vision for that anyway. but having ghosts camping at your main/expos to halt recalls is a great idea imo
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Mixing in a few ghosts could help, I'm not sure how DTs would play out- are scans enough to keep DTs in check lateish game? You might have to add in a few vessels as well. Also a plus to vessels is that they provide vision over cliffs and stuff, where with ghosts your army would be a lot more blind. I dunno how it would play out exactly with nukes, I know at low levels nukes are certainly annoying even if they don't do a lot of damage. Maybe if you were in some sort of situation on a FS like map with like 4 bases vs a toss with the rest it would be viable to mix in a few ghosts to harass and lockdown.
oh, also you would have to have turrets everywhere, or else observers could check every movement of your army
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EMP reduces shields to 0 too.
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-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
In other words, very gas heavy.
For one Vessel you can have 3 ghosts... iirc vessels are 225 gas? 2 ghosts and one more tank.. .etc etc.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
If I can get a high level terran player on my next cast, I will ask him to try this in some showmatches 
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On January 14 2011 02:54 Sayle wrote:If I can get a high level terran player on my next cast, I will ask him to try this in some showmatches
i think he doesnt play anymore, but people said gretorp used to use ghosts to deal with arbiters
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It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing. 
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On January 14 2011 03:15 Holgerius wrote:It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing.
i half agree with you on that.
its a lot harder when ur trying to stop stasis and shit when ur engaging the toss with ur main army, but i think its perfectly viable to use ghosts to stop in base recalls. its really not that much harder than emp, because the biggest factor in stopping in base recalls either with vessel or ghost is to see it coming fast enough.
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On January 14 2011 03:15 Holgerius wrote:It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing.
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no?
I want people to seriously consider if having 3 ghosts is better than having one science vessel in some situations. Or if have a ghost and more gas for tanks is better. Just because it's not being done in progames doesn't mean it's not viable, or that a particular kind of map could foreseeably make it very favourable.
Someone has already posted a REALLY good point in this thread, which is that lockdown gets the arbiter KILLED. EMP just disables it and allows it to run away. That means protoss builds up a larger and larger number of arbs, or that he doesn't need to spend 350 gas to rebuild one. I think that's a pretty important difference. Not just in stopping recalls, of course, which yes we've all seen that in progames  but in the battlefield too, arbiters often get away when controlled well, especially if the emp were preemptive (which it always needs to be if you want to stop the stasis). If you emp an arb that got it's stasis off right before your emp hit, you've waste an emp and done nothing to help. If an arb gets it's stasis off before you can lock down, it's still gonna die and that's still a good thing.
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hiya did arbiter lockdown in the game vs free last year. hard to catch it on time.. he also missed it a second time when arbiter came
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:15 Chef wrote:
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no?
That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting.
If pros thought as you say, we would never see any innovation whatsoever. Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. Fantasy would never have come up with his vulture drop build. Zero wouldn't have used queen/ling to kill Perfectman.
Besides Boxer though, did you not see Hiya vs Free on Triathalon? He went 3 port wraith into nukes.
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Getting ghosts is something you can do if you've got a surplus. If your strapped for gas you should definitely be getting vessels over ghosts.
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You'll probably still want a Vessel for detection, and EMP shatters shields, which makes this a hard sell.
I would try this first against two-base Arbiter or two-base Carrier, since the armies will be smaller when you clash (--> less stuff to do --> easier to Lockdown) and Protoss will be devastated by an arbiter loss.
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I think ghosts are way too micro heavy, almost like queens. The reason queens were unviable was because they simply required too much micro.
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Nukes are great late game, because you can effectively nuke from inside your main on certain maps.
(HBR and Matchpoint) are the ones that stick out.
On matchpoint you can nuke the base hugging your main and on HBR you can nuke the base north or south of your main.
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I think vessels are more versatile than ghost, because they can move easier arround the map, have more hp, have detenction and can spot for your tanks when on lower terrain, and EMP is useful against all spellcasters, but can be used agrressively against every protoss unit (or group of units) due to the shield reduction. On the contrary, a ghost could counter an arbiter or a carrier, but not a lot more. Besides, an EMPed arbiter has 200 hp left.
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Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that.
It really wasn't. Protoss were in a bad way (EVERYONE was saying how hard PvZ is) before Bisu, OUT OF NECESSITY, changed the matchup. But that's not even what this thread is about
Ghosts aren't anymore 'micro heavy' than vessels. The fact that vessels detect is a pretty good point though. I believe lockdowned arbs don't detect anymore, but it is still a concern to need to scan everytime you engage.
+ Show Spoiler +Man the strat forum gives me a headache... NO YOU CANT DO THAT LOL IM COMPLETELY ROBOTIC AND CAN ONLY COPY WHAT IVE SEEN BEFORE. Don't even post if that's all you have to say The first thing I admitted was that generally vessels are more desirable than ghosts. I'm trying to think of rare instances where it's the reverse. It's not that complicated.
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EPT
