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On January 14 2011 06:15 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Getting ghosts is something you can do if you've got a surplus. If your strapped for gas you should definitely be getting vessels over ghosts.
Pretty much this, if you are low on gas, vessels take priority since they can take shields and detect. Late game adding ghosts is perfectly fine to lower the arb count or dealing with a carrier switch. (one lockdown guarantees a carrier kill so they start to add up)
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I've tried ghosts for a while. I haven't had success even though that's more due to me being bad than any inherent disadvantage of ghosts. To me, the one advantage of ghosts is that in a battle, whatever unit you lock down (arb/carrier or even a shuttle) is an almost guaranteed kill, whereas in a normal battle, even if you win the battle the arb/carriers will always be able to retreat and live to see another day. With EMP, you hit the arb, you feel awesome about yourself and a few minutes later the arb comes back and you either have to EMP again or get stasised. The guaranteed kills that lockdown provides is a pretty good feeling and forces the protoss to spend more gas on their shiny units
I was having trouble fitting ghosts into my play. I don't really know when to get it and the extra gas you're dumping into it (cov ops, LD research in addition to the 3-4 ghosts you'll probably want) would be better served getting the vessel upgrades/armory upgrades/a few extra tanks until well after you've secured your 3rd and have about 180 supply, in which case the ghost becomes more of an afterthought "might as well" sort of tech instead of being incorporated into your regular game plan
Trying to time your ghost so that it has enough energy on time for a 2 base recall can be dangerous, as your ghosts can't be everywhere at once and there's no way to guarantee that you can stop the recall
As for the micro argument: I think the hard thing about ghost compared with vessel is that they don't fly, so vessel is easy to move around. Ghosts can get stuck behind units whereas a vessel will never ever get stuck behind your army. Though I find EMP a headache to aim whereas lockdown is pretty easy to aim
I don't think ghosts are really that expensive when you consider that it can take out the shiniest protoss units. The problem with them is that they are at a kinda awkward place in the tech tree, and building a cov ops means not upgrading from your science facility (during the time cov ops is building), so people typically want to research energy/EMP for vessel before even considering covert ops, and by that time it's more of a "hey I can build ghosts, cool" rather than any actual plan to get ghosts. I think we saw some similar arguments against Maelstrom, where incorporating early mael into your PvZ means skipping storm
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Well, since the game has shifted from Terran getting 2-3 base vs Protoss 3-4, and is instead now Terran 4-5 base vs Protoss 6-7, I don't think it's an after thought to get ghosts when your economy is that strong. At that point you have the resources to get whatever, and a Vessel/ghost tech is certainly possible. However, getting to that kind of scenario is something only very good players do regularly. Terrans at lower levels tend not to know how to expand that much, and when they do, tend not to know what to do with all their money/are already winning.
I feel like it's very true that ghosts can get stuck behind units, but Zergs have been dealing with that with their defilers for years now. I think that Protoss usually are the ones trying to attack the Terran, so as long as you have your ghosts by/or just in front of your tank line, you should be able to lockdown one or two arbs.
Edit: do people really research energy upgrade for vessels in PvT? That seems really pointless. EMP costs 100. No matter what you do, that's always only going to be 2 EMPs, and maybe a slightly quicker recharge for the third one. With Irradiate vs zerg it's a lot better since you can get 3 irradiates off in quick succession, but vessels are so mobile in that matchup that you should be irradiating before you ever get to 200 energy anyway. I don't think the covert ops takes very long to build though, does it? you start teching to SVs when you scan an arbiter tribunal, it doesn't mean you need those vessels right when you scan it. Since you need 100 energy to cast EMP, the earliest you want to even start researching it is right after your vessel has finished building. That's plenty of time to build the covert ops.
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On January 15 2011 01:58 Chef wrote:
Well, since the game has shifted from Terran getting 2-3 base vs Protoss 3-4, and is instead now Terran 4-5 base vs Protoss 6-7, I don't think it's an after thought to get ghosts when your economy is that strong. At that point you have the resources to get whatever, and a Vessel/ghost tech is certainly possible. However, getting to that kind of scenario is something only very good players do regularly. Terrans at lower levels tend not to know how to expand that much, and when they do, tend not to know what to do with all their money/are already winning.
I feel like it's very true that ghosts can get stuck behind units, but Zergs have been dealing with that with their defilers for years now. I think that Protoss usually are the ones trying to attack the Terran, so as long as you have your ghosts by/or just in front of your tank line, you should be able to lockdown one or two arbs.
Edit: do people really research energy upgrade for vessels in PvT? That seems really pointless. EMP costs 100. No matter what you do, that's always only going to be 2 EMPs, and maybe a slightly quicker recharge for the third one. With Irradiate vs zerg it's a lot better since you can get 3 irradiates off in quick succession, but vessels are so mobile in that matchup that you should be irradiating before you ever get to 200 energy anyway. I don't think the covert ops takes very long to build though, does it? you start teching to SVs when you scan an arbiter tribunal, it doesn't mean you need those vessels right when you scan it. Since you need 100 energy to cast EMP, the earliest you want to even start researching it is right after your vessel has finished building. That's plenty of time to build the covert ops.
If the Protoss is doing a 3 base arb build, you can get ghosts out and place them in each of your bases and start lockdown before stasis is complete.
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On January 14 2011 17:50 Spazer wrote:
Observers lose detection when lockdowned, but this doesn't really seem like a great use of the spell, considering its energy cost.
Medics with flare are better for this. Less teching, less energy, bit larger range, less worry about them dying in battle due to attack priority, protoss needs to waste time to check his observers for blind status. It is also fun to watch blind shuttles bumping into turrets and marines.
Anyway, I believe terrans should use vessels and ghosts as well. Vessels are pretty much needed for that constant detection, but ghosts are much cheaper and seemingly better alternative for stopping recalls instead of expensive gas-filled floating balls patrolling the edge of nowhere.
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i just played a tvp with a friend i believe ghosts are way better, when he attacked me and i immediately lockdowned his 2 arbs his army melted waaaay faster and the arbs were sure kill. we are both d+ level haha
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Both you and Sayle are really pissing me off by derailing this thread and not contributing. Please stop posting here unless you have good ideas. Vessels with EMP used to be considered gimmicky/gosulol too. Now it's basically mandatory.
think of it as a dialectic process: there has to be a change somewhere else - map, new BO, new approach to vT, etc (as you obviously point recognize) before anything substantial has to happen to ghost play. you cant just say ghost is underused and might be viable without considering the proper context that your idea isn't new and has been thought of before, and that because you think there is a viable use for it then suddenly there is. like you also say, the game evolves. are there new maps, new XvT stategies, new BOs? so far nothing very significant. well unless there is a new map where there is a small island with lots of trees across the mineral line and out of the workers vision but where you have vision to them, then you can tuck a ghost there and nuke away (j/k :p)
what im saying is take it easy man. no need to be pissed off, we are just discussing here 
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On January 15 2011 04:21 icystorage wrote:
i just played a tvp with a friend i believe ghosts are way better, when he attacked me and i immediately lockdowned his 2 arbs his army melted waaaay faster and the arbs were sure kill. we are both d+ level haha
That's anecdotal evidence, only one game, and D+ level.
I personally am D+. Frankly, I would go out and try this in games myself, but I doubt it would mean much, because the skill level is so low. The Protoss and I are probably going into the late game having made a number of large mistakes that would affect any findings on the viability of ghosts.
For example, the Protoss could forget Arbiter tech for a while, or the Terran might gets ghost and lockdown too early at the sacrifice of his army or upgrades or something, with the Protoss not taking advantage of this mistake when a higher level Protoss would.
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I think ghosts have a much greater usage against carriers than arbiters. The thing about locking arbs is that it doesn't really net you the win in a fight. It can make things better for you (less tanks statis'ed) but all-in all, the arbiter is still just one of the support units in the midst of a large army. The shield killing ability of EMP shouldn't be ignored along with templar neutering. I think ghosts can be great against carriers though, as locking down a carrier can often mean a dead carrier, and each single carrier carries a lot more value monetarily and strategically than individual arbs.
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On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though  I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble. With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand. You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem?
Well detection is never a problem that late of a game, but vessels are much more preferred at that point of game than ghosts because they are much more mobile than ghosts. Stopping recall with vessel also seems more viable because they can fly around unwalkable terrains to look for the arbiters.
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On January 15 2011 20:13 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble. With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand. You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem? Well detection is never a problem that late of a game, but vessels are much more preferred at that point of game than ghosts because they are much more mobile than ghosts. Stopping recall with vessel also seems more viable because they can fly around unwalkable terrains to look for the arbiters.
Vessels & arbs don't show up just in the late game, they show up in the midgame, when players are on 2 bases (3 if they're lucky, but 2 base arbs isn't unusual). Scans/detection are definitely a problem without vessels, especially if your opponents knows you don't/won't have that tech. If the opponent continues to test your army, approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out. When that happens, you're stuck turtling by your turrets.
Vessels are preferred because of mobility though, and EMP is a godsend. Stopping recalls, templars, or even just cutting shields off all their zealots so they die before reaching the tank wall.
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approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out.
But how can he back off if his arbiter is... Locked Down... mwahhahaha. No seriously. How? Scans aren't finite, you know. They only cost 50 energy. The advantage of vessels is that there is no delay, your units will just fire as soon as something comes in range, but killing Arbs has increible strategic value... It means the Protoss can't engage with you until he gets another arb and waits for said arb to build up 100 energy. Just watch some TvPs and look for situations where you'll think 'man, if only that guy had lockdown right now.' Protoss get pretty arrogant with their arbs. LD would stop that completely.
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On January 16 2011 01:19 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out. But how can he back off if his arbiter is... Locked Down... mwahhahaha. No seriously. How? Scans aren't finite, you know. They only cost 50 energy. The advantage of vessels is that there is no delay, your units will just fire as soon as something comes in range, but killing Arbs has increible strategic value... It means the Protoss can't engage with you until he gets another arb and waits for said arb to build up 100 energy. Just watch some TvPs and look for situations where you'll think 'man, if only that guy had lockdown right now.' Protoss get pretty arrogant with their arbs. LD would stop that completely.
imo, I see Arbs like vessels in TvZ. If too many are allowed to live, the Protoss will be able to stasis or recall all they want.
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My sugestion is to get both vessls and ghosts, you dont have to used both of them, just the one you feel is more effective at each point, or the one that will guarantee a better effect.
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People arguing against ghosts are misguided in this bizarre all ghosts or all vessels mentality.
As was pointed out in page one, ghosts are very cheap compared to vessels gas wise and they are also cheap enough supply wise.
The real implications of the question being asked isn't whether ghosts should be used at all, but how many vessels do you need before they become redundant and ghosts become a better investment and at what ratios should you have ghosts to vessels.
No matter what, to get ghosts you need the tech for vessels. So it may be prudent to eventually have both and use the savings on gas to get a smidgen more tanks. (bah I really needed to proof read this post)
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If people start using Ghosts, then inevitably, Protoss would start making Dark Archons to feedback them out of existence before they can lockdown the Arbiters. Well, they would... except it's not very practical.
As for a comparison of practicality, Ghosts simply will not beat out Science Vessels, because, for example, 3 Ghosts are the same cost as 1 Vessel (3 x 75 = 225) in terms of gas. Let's see you have a Protoss army with 3 Arbiters and 5 High Templar accompanying it. You can lockdown 3 vessels with 3 cloaked ghosts while moving your army towards the Protoss, and the High Templar will still have energy, -OR- you can fire off one EMP, and disable all 3 Arbiters and all the High Templar AND knock out all the shields on every Protoss unit. So, why would you pick Ghosts over Science Vessels if you had to pick one or the other?
The only situations I think of where you'd want to use Ghosts over Science Vessels then boils down to:
1 - You are so much better than your Protoss opponent that you know you won't need Science Vessels to beat him, so you can make the trade-off and humiliate them by nuking/lockdown.
2 - You want to lose.
I really don't think you should have to make a choice, though. If you can afford Ghosts, and think you meet the APM requirement to be able to lockdown a Arbiter heading into your base, then go for it. I just personally would never recommend Ghosts over Science Vessels ever.
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Way to ignore almost the entire discussion in order to post some obvious, hollow cynicism. You obviously just read the OP or maybe even just the title for that matter and used it to fuel a fool's rant. Wait how did i not miss that last paragraph wtf? I would cry ninja edit but clearly not. My apologies.
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EPT
