| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
FlaShFTW
United States10143 Posts
EMP = No energy, no shields. Widespread. You even if you miss, you'll at least get about 1 1/2 control group of units. Tanks can now make mincemeat out of goons. Lockdown = Entirely negated and able to attack. No spread and your units will be busy killing the toss army and not dealing with an inactive arbiter. | ||
|
Cambium
United States16368 Posts
The bigger problem is arbs during battles. Protoss players rely so much on arbs in late games, you must build SVs before engaging the protoss in battles, since I don't think locking down all of the arbiters amidst of a battle is possible given how much you have to do. SVs give you detection, dmatrix and EMP. EMP can be used against arbs, HTs as well as greatly reducing unit HPs, not something that can be replaced by ghosts. | ||
|
infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 14 2011 06:09 Sayle wrote: That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting. If pros thought as you say, we would never see any innovation whatsoever. Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. Fantasy would never have come up with his vulture drop build. Zero wouldn't have used queen/ling to kill Perfectman. Besides Boxer though, did you not see Hiya vs Free on Triathalon? He went 3 port wraith into nukes. Actually it's happened in regular TvP too besides the Triathalon game. It is viable to some degree, Really has done it a few times successfully plus i think maybe Leta. As far as i remember they did not skip Vessels however. The game i mainly remember is Really's... i'm not certain that nukes should be written off as gimmicks in TvP, it worked well in that game for sure. | ||
|
Cambium
United States16368 Posts
| ||
|
Trozz
Canada3454 Posts
Would you idle your starport? Or... spit out some wraiths? | ||
|
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On January 14 2011 07:36 Chef wrote: It really wasn't. Protoss were in a bad way (EVERYONE was saying how hard PvZ is) before Bisu, OUT OF NECESSITY, changed the matchup. But that's not even what this thread is about  Ghosts aren't anymore 'micro heavy' than vessels. The fact that vessels detect is a pretty good point though. I believe lockdowned arbs don't detect anymore, but it is still a concern to need to scan everytime you engage. + Show Spoiler + Man the strat forum gives me a headache... NO YOU CANT DO THAT LOL IM COMPLETELY ROBOTIC AND CAN ONLY COPY WHAT IVE SEEN BEFORE. Don't even post if that's all you have to say The first thing I admitted was that generally vessels are more desirable than ghosts. I'm trying to think of rare instances where it's the reverse. It's not that complicated.I defenitely agree with the spoilered part, I even remember being insulted because I tried to theorycraft once | ||
|
JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
the thing about emp is not only about the removing of arbiter energy but also removing protoss shields. that's effectively one siege tank blast. also if you go for a flash oriented build, then it would delay you quite a bit to get the ghost with cloak and range because at that time you'd be really starved on gas to be pumping out tanks. | ||
|
Chef
10810 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:55 Trozz wrote: If you skip vessels, Would you idle your starport? Or... spit out some wraiths? Dropships, I think. | ||
|
Chef
10810 Posts
On January 14 2011 08:06 FlaShFTW wrote: If you think that they are better than vessels, then how come progamers don't use them. Also, your article is incredibly biased towards ghosts considering that you only talk about the good of ghosts and the bad of vessels. EMP = No energy, no shields. Widespread. You even if you miss, you'll at least get about 1 1/2 control group of units. Tanks can now make mincemeat out of goons. Lockdown = Entirely negated and able to attack. No spread and your units will be busy killing the toss army and not dealing with an inactive arbiter. On January 14 2011 00:41 Chef wrote: I think it's obvious in most situations science vessels are the preferable choice, but I think that there must be some situations in which a ghost would be better. However, because we are used to getting vessels as our automatic choice, we may be short changing ourselves in some games. Please don't post if you don't read the OP. I didn't only list the bad things about vessels. I just listed the pros of both units (in terms of what they do better than the other). I really don't understand how people can misunderstand the purpose of this thread so much when I stated my intentions in the very first sentence. This is ridiculous. | ||
|
YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
Also, I can easily see ghosts being used defensively against recalls, but offensively against stasis? I don't see it happening. Vessels give you obs anyway, so you don't have to constantly scan. They can fly above your army. They don't die to everything within a few seconds. I've tried using ghosts against carriers, before. So hard to micro your army and aim 6 different lockdowns at the same time. You can try using ghosts in addition to vessels, but probably not instead of vessels. ********Also, a question for whoever knows********* Let's say you are going ghosts. In what order do you get ghost upgrades? This isn't well-explored theory, or at least not to me. I would think first lock down, then cloaking, then energy? Is ocular implant worth it at all? And would you consider upgrading Infantry Armor just to make your ghosts a bit more resilient? | ||
|
Chef
10810 Posts
Again, I'm not saying Vessels aren't an extremely good tactic. I'm just trying to imagine a situation where you'd rather have ghosts. I'm thinking ultra specific situations, not planning from the beginning to get ghosts. Please don't post in here if you're just gonna tell me vessels are good vs arbiters. THAT'S OBVIOUS. Or that you've seen vods used to stop recall. That's also painfully obvious. Add something new to the discussion that you haven't seen in VODs. I've watched BW a REALLY long time. I've watched BW since before people even used Arbiters in PvT. Everyone thought arbiters were really gimmicky. Then people got tired of trying to fight 200/200 terran with just ground and carriers, and the game got a whole lot more dynamic. This isn't discussing the viability of ghosts in your average TvP though. This is discussion fringe/weird situations that maybe one day you'll recognize while playing and want to try. I hope I can get some interesting replies amidst this "IVE NEVER SEEN THIS MUST SHOOT IT DOWN" posts, which clearly only read the title of this thread. DTK, I don't think cloak/energy upgrade would be worth upgrading at all. Cloak if you plan to nuke, but for the sake of staying on topic, we're not exactly nuking arbiters.. That is just a possible transition if it appear effective in your situation. It can't be planned out. | ||
|
Gak2
Canada418 Posts
but i dunno i'm not a terran player | ||
|
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
| ||
|
Chef
10810 Posts
On January 14 2011 09:57 Furios wrote: I always imagined it would be good very late TvT with mass BCs and both players are swimming in their minerals and gas. Instead of one BC, a guy gets 6 ghosts. after enough time that's 12 lockdowns. but i dunno i'm not a terran player FireBatHero has opting for ghosts quite a few times in long TvTs  And not just ones where's he's already got the advantage, but ones where his ghosts are what create his advantage. Lock down 5 or so battle cruisers + nuke... pretty unforgettable. But only FireBatHero ever did it with regularity. | ||
|
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Also, teching to ghosts is a costly endeavor and you would have to have some amazing multitask to take down the arbiters before they lay down the stasis. Maybe you could get 1 in time, but what if there's 4? Also, you tech to them so late that the push may come earlier than lockdown. | ||
|
Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
In order for a ghost to be effective, its got to be in position to outwit the arb, but arbs move faster than a ghost, hence even if you got the ghost in the right position, enemy arb can still fall back as soon as it spots the ghost coming in for a lockdown. Unless you got a ghost every screen length away, it's going to be hard to for anyone to be pinpoint on their micro. Other issue that hasnt really been brought up is the vision a sci vessel provides (not just detection). At least you can have a poke with your air unit to see where the clump of their army is without scan. my 2cents | ||
|
YejinYejin
United States1053 Posts
On January 14 2011 09:38 Chef wrote:DTK, I don't think cloak/energy upgrade would be worth upgrading at all. Cloak if you plan to nuke, but for the sake of staying on topic, we're not exactly nuking arbiters.. That is just a possible transition if it appear effective in your situation. It can't be planned out. Ah, yeah, because they'll have obs anyway and cloak cuts into your energy. Still, no energy upgrade? | ||
|
Chef
10810 Posts
I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture.Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. | ||
|
d_so
Korea (South)3262 Posts
Regarding the OP: anyone remember the Ruby game when he had ghosts with sci vessels in his late game army composition? That was pretty dope | ||
|
Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote: I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture.Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble. With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand. You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem? | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Stormgate Dota 2 League of Legends Counter-Strike Super Smash Bros Heroes of the Storm Other Games summit1g5677 tarik_tv2086 B2W.Neo821 mouzStarbuck262 KnowMe176 ToD155 Hui .113 Mew2King105 Trikslyr68 ZombieGrub67 Sick50 |
|
Replay Cast
Sparkling Tuna Cup
WardiTV European League
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
The PondCast
WardiTV European League
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
Replay Cast
RSL Revival
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
