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I think it's obvious in most situations science vessels are the preferable choice, but I think that there must be some situations in which a ghost would be better. However, because we are used to getting vessels as our automatic choice, we may be short changing ourselves in some games.
Vessels
-Easy to reinforce your army since they can fly over terrain
-Don't need covert ops (so very slightly easier to tech to)
-EMP affects both Arbiters, and enemy high templar (which are an equally large threat)
-units under the arbiter are also affected
-A group of arbiters clustered together only need one EMP
-Defensive Matrix is a very useful spell.
-Detect
Ghosts
-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
-Lockdown is a guaranteed hit, unlike EMP
-Ghosts can transition into other play, like nukes
-Ghosts prevent a carrier transition (because lockdown is so effective vs carriers)
-Ghosts can lockdown shuttles and reavers
-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
-Ghosts add to your damage output, however slightly, at least vs Zealots.
-Usually guarantee the death of the arbiter.
So if you haven't noticed, the main concern seems to be that vessels counter high templar, and ghosts don't (well they can shoot high templar, but probably not before they storm. Vultures are more effective for that.)
However, I want people in this thread to try and think of situations where they'd rather go ghosts than vessels. That way when you see that situation in a real game, you'll actually be able to try it instead of auto getting vessels.
Situations I can think of which are good for ghosts
-low gas (ie enemy won't have as many templars, and you won't have as much to spare for vessels)
-a place to build a forward barracks (maps that will allow you to reinforce your army with ghosts more easily)
-an enemy who is going both arbiters and carriers
-an enemy that uses a lot of shuttles
-an enemy who is good at dodging EMPs
Please share ideas you might have in this thread.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I remember a thread a while ago talking about the viability of using ghosts for defense against recalls. With vessels, a Terran must constantly be patrolling the perimeter of his bases with vessels in order to try to EMP. However, as mentioned in your post the EMP can be dodged, though even if it hits the Arbiter can fly away to live another day. A single ghost with lockdown could lock the arbiter down as soon as it gets into turret range, thus ending the Arbiter's life.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
You should watch some Boxer games.
I think the most effective use I've seen for ghost/lockdown is to stop a recall. Just have one ghost chilling in your main to lockdown the arbiter when it comes. Otherwise, I think they are really just a gimmicky unit. Let me address each of your 'pros':
-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
In other words, very gas heavy.
-Lockdown is a guaranteed hit, unlike EMP
On the other hand, EMP affects an area.
-Ghosts can transition into other play, like nukes
Nukes are even more gimmicky than lockdown...
-Ghosts prevent a carrier transition (because lockdown is so effective vs carriers)
Probably true, but not really a justification since mass ground with arbiter support is more common anyway.
-Ghosts can lockdown shuttles and reavers
By the time you have ghost tech, there shouldn't be any reavers in play.
-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
Makes them harder for you to click as well :p Also, I'm not sure why it matters if it's harder for the enemy to spot them...
-Ghosts add to your damage output, however slightly, at least vs Zealots.
Negligible.
I think ghosts are in much the same category as queens at the moment. Pretty good when you're theorycrafting, but not so good in practice due to high gas cost, high micro/APM requirements, and often situation-specific usefulness.
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i think ghosts are too fragile to move out with your main army in a push
however, i think they are more effective than vessels in stopping recalls into your base, as it will guarantee a dead arbiter. the only trouble with that is that you have to target the arbiter itself instead of targetting near it like you would with emp.
its hardly a matter of inviability - the economic effect of going ghosts is so small in late game when arbiters will be around where you have 3-4+ bases that im sure you will be fine mixing some ghosts in. but yeah, having ghosts in their own hotkey to move around with your main army is too much of a pain/risk, and you need the vessel's detection vision for that anyway. but having ghosts camping at your main/expos to halt recalls is a great idea imo
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Mixing in a few ghosts could help, I'm not sure how DTs would play out- are scans enough to keep DTs in check lateish game? You might have to add in a few vessels as well. Also a plus to vessels is that they provide vision over cliffs and stuff, where with ghosts your army would be a lot more blind. I dunno how it would play out exactly with nukes, I know at low levels nukes are certainly annoying even if they don't do a lot of damage. Maybe if you were in some sort of situation on a FS like map with like 4 bases vs a toss with the rest it would be viable to mix in a few ghosts to harass and lockdown.
oh, also you would have to have turrets everywhere, or else observers could check every movement of your army
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EMP reduces shields to 0 too.
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-Only 25 minerals and 75 gas each
In other words, very gas heavy.
For one Vessel you can have 3 ghosts... iirc vessels are 225 gas? 2 ghosts and one more tank.. .etc etc.
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
If I can get a high level terran player on my next cast, I will ask him to try this in some showmatches 
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On January 14 2011 02:54 Sayle wrote:If I can get a high level terran player on my next cast, I will ask him to try this in some showmatches
i think he doesnt play anymore, but people said gretorp used to use ghosts to deal with arbiters
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It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing. 
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On January 14 2011 03:15 Holgerius wrote:It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing.
i half agree with you on that.
its a lot harder when ur trying to stop stasis and shit when ur engaging the toss with ur main army, but i think its perfectly viable to use ghosts to stop in base recalls. its really not that much harder than emp, because the biggest factor in stopping in base recalls either with vessel or ghost is to see it coming fast enough.
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On January 14 2011 03:15 Holgerius wrote:It's fun to theorycraft about Ghost usage, but I seriously doubt it's a really viable option on progamer level. If it was, they would've been fucking around with it a lot more than they are doing.
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no?
I want people to seriously consider if having 3 ghosts is better than having one science vessel in some situations. Or if have a ghost and more gas for tanks is better. Just because it's not being done in progames doesn't mean it's not viable, or that a particular kind of map could foreseeably make it very favourable.
Someone has already posted a REALLY good point in this thread, which is that lockdown gets the arbiter KILLED. EMP just disables it and allows it to run away. That means protoss builds up a larger and larger number of arbs, or that he doesn't need to spend 350 gas to rebuild one. I think that's a pretty important difference. Not just in stopping recalls, of course, which yes we've all seen that in progames  but in the battlefield too, arbiters often get away when controlled well, especially if the emp were preemptive (which it always needs to be if you want to stop the stasis). If you emp an arb that got it's stasis off right before your emp hit, you've waste an emp and done nothing to help. If an arb gets it's stasis off before you can lock down, it's still gonna die and that's still a good thing.
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hiya did arbiter lockdown in the game vs free last year. hard to catch it on time.. he also missed it a second time when arbiter came
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On January 14 2011 05:15 Chef wrote:
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no?
That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting.
If pros thought as you say, we would never see any innovation whatsoever. Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. Fantasy would never have come up with his vulture drop build. Zero wouldn't have used queen/ling to kill Perfectman.
Besides Boxer though, did you not see Hiya vs Free on Triathalon? He went 3 port wraith into nukes.
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Getting ghosts is something you can do if you've got a surplus. If your strapped for gas you should definitely be getting vessels over ghosts.
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You'll probably still want a Vessel for detection, and EMP shatters shields, which makes this a hard sell.
I would try this first against two-base Arbiter or two-base Carrier, since the armies will be smaller when you clash (--> less stuff to do --> easier to Lockdown) and Protoss will be devastated by an arbiter loss.
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I think ghosts are way too micro heavy, almost like queens. The reason queens were unviable was because they simply required too much micro.
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Nukes are great late game, because you can effectively nuke from inside your main on certain maps.
(HBR and Matchpoint) are the ones that stick out.
On matchpoint you can nuke the base hugging your main and on HBR you can nuke the base north or south of your main.
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I think vessels are more versatile than ghost, because they can move easier arround the map, have more hp, have detenction and can spot for your tanks when on lower terrain, and EMP is useful against all spellcasters, but can be used agrressively against every protoss unit (or group of units) due to the shield reduction. On the contrary, a ghost could counter an arbiter or a carrier, but not a lot more. Besides, an EMPed arbiter has 200 hp left.
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Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that.
It really wasn't. Protoss were in a bad way (EVERYONE was saying how hard PvZ is) before Bisu, OUT OF NECESSITY, changed the matchup. But that's not even what this thread is about
Ghosts aren't anymore 'micro heavy' than vessels. The fact that vessels detect is a pretty good point though. I believe lockdowned arbs don't detect anymore, but it is still a concern to need to scan everytime you engage.
+ Show Spoiler +Man the strat forum gives me a headache... NO YOU CANT DO THAT LOL IM COMPLETELY ROBOTIC AND CAN ONLY COPY WHAT IVE SEEN BEFORE. Don't even post if that's all you have to say The first thing I admitted was that generally vessels are more desirable than ghosts. I'm trying to think of rare instances where it's the reverse. It's not that complicated.
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United States10139 Posts
If you think that they are better than vessels, then how come progamers don't use them. Also, your article is incredibly biased towards ghosts considering that you only talk about the good of ghosts and the bad of vessels.
EMP = No energy, no shields. Widespread. You even if you miss, you'll at least get about 1 1/2 control group of units. Tanks can now make mincemeat out of goons.
Lockdown = Entirely negated and able to attack. No spread and your units will be busy killing the toss army and not dealing with an inactive arbiter.
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Recall prevention is actually only a small portion of the problem, as most Terrans expect recalls these days, and defend their bases with mines and turrets. Also, I don't even know if a ghost can have enough energy to prevent a 2-base recall. Even for recall, SVs are still better than ghosts because they are more mobile. You can float the SV farther away from the base and try to EMP before the arb gets inside the base. Whereas if your base is surrounded by walls, you need a floating building to sight the arb for your ghost.
The bigger problem is arbs during battles. Protoss players rely so much on arbs in late games, you must build SVs before engaging the protoss in battles, since I don't think locking down all of the arbiters amidst of a battle is possible given how much you have to do. SVs give you detection, dmatrix and EMP. EMP can be used against arbs, HTs as well as greatly reducing unit HPs, not something that can be replaced by ghosts.
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On January 14 2011 06:09 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:15 Chef wrote:
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no? That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting. If pros thought as you say, we would never see any innovation whatsoever. Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. Fantasy would never have come up with his vulture drop build. Zero wouldn't have used queen/ling to kill Perfectman. Besides Boxer though, did you not see Hiya vs Free on Triathalon? He went 3 port wraith into nukes.
Actually it's happened in regular TvP too besides the Triathalon game. It is viable to some degree, Really has done it a few times successfully plus i think maybe Leta. As far as i remember they did not skip Vessels however. The game i mainly remember is Really's... i'm not certain that nukes should be written off as gimmicks in TvP, it worked well in that game for sure.
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If I'm playing protoss, and i notice my opponent is going ghosts, I would get hallucination and dupe my arbiters.
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If you skip vessels,
Would you idle your starport?
Or... spit out some wraiths?
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Canada2480 Posts
On January 14 2011 07:36 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. It really wasn't. Protoss were in a bad way (EVERYONE was saying how hard PvZ is) before Bisu, OUT OF NECESSITY, changed the matchup. But that's not even what this thread is about Ghosts aren't anymore 'micro heavy' than vessels. The fact that vessels detect is a pretty good point though. I believe lockdowned arbs don't detect anymore, but it is still a concern to need to scan everytime you engage. + Show Spoiler +Man the strat forum gives me a headache... NO YOU CANT DO THAT LOL IM COMPLETELY ROBOTIC AND CAN ONLY COPY WHAT IVE SEEN BEFORE. Don't even post if that's all you have to say The first thing I admitted was that generally vessels are more desirable than ghosts. I'm trying to think of rare instances where it's the reverse. It's not that complicated.
I defenitely agree with the spoilered part, I even remember being insulted because I tried to theorycraft once
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it would probably be good in your first engagement where he maybe has 1-2 arbiters. but when it happens later into late game when he has around 5-6 arbs, then locking down becomes more difficult.
the thing about emp is not only about the removing of arbiter energy but also removing protoss shields. that's effectively one siege tank blast.
also if you go for a flash oriented build, then it would delay you quite a bit to get the ghost with cloak and range because at that time you'd be really starved on gas to be pumping out tanks.
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On January 14 2011 08:55 Trozz wrote:
If you skip vessels,
Would you idle your starport?
Or... spit out some wraiths?
Dropships, I think.
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On January 14 2011 08:06 FlaShFTW wrote:
If you think that they are better than vessels, then how come progamers don't use them. Also, your article is incredibly biased towards ghosts considering that you only talk about the good of ghosts and the bad of vessels.
EMP = No energy, no shields. Widespread. You even if you miss, you'll at least get about 1 1/2 control group of units. Tanks can now make mincemeat out of goons.
Lockdown = Entirely negated and able to attack. No spread and your units will be busy killing the toss army and not dealing with an inactive arbiter.
On January 14 2011 00:41 Chef wrote:
I think it's obvious in most situations science vessels are the preferable choice, but I think that there must be some situations in which a ghost would be better. However, because we are used to getting vessels as our automatic choice, we may be short changing ourselves in some games.
Please don't post if you don't read the OP. I didn't only list the bad things about vessels. I just listed the pros of both units (in terms of what they do better than the other).
I really don't understand how people can misunderstand the purpose of this thread so much when I stated my intentions in the very first sentence. This is ridiculous.
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Vessels will come out faster, I think? I mean you have to wait for the add-on for ghosts to build. I guess it won't make too much of a difference. But yeah, when there is more than one arbiter, Vessel is easier because even though EMP might miss, it has AoE.
Also, I can easily see ghosts being used defensively against recalls, but offensively against stasis? I don't see it happening. Vessels give you obs anyway, so you don't have to constantly scan. They can fly above your army. They don't die to everything within a few seconds.
I've tried using ghosts against carriers, before. So hard to micro your army and aim 6 different lockdowns at the same time.
You can try using ghosts in addition to vessels, but probably not instead of vessels.
********Also, a question for whoever knows*********
Let's say you are going ghosts. In what order do you get ghost upgrades? This isn't well-explored theory, or at least not to me. I would think first lock down, then cloaking, then energy? Is ocular implant worth it at all? And would you consider upgrading Infantry Armor just to make your ghosts a bit more resilient?
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What if you only got one vessel (w/o emp). That vessel's task is to d matrix and detect protoss units, while your ghosts (which are much easier on your gas) use lockdown.
Again, I'm not saying Vessels aren't an extremely good tactic. I'm just trying to imagine a situation where you'd rather have ghosts. I'm thinking ultra specific situations, not planning from the beginning to get ghosts. Please don't post in here if you're just gonna tell me vessels are good vs arbiters. THAT'S OBVIOUS. Or that you've seen vods used to stop recall. That's also painfully obvious. Add something new to the discussion that you haven't seen in VODs. I've watched BW a REALLY long time. I've watched BW since before people even used Arbiters in PvT. Everyone thought arbiters were really gimmicky. Then people got tired of trying to fight 200/200 terran with just ground and carriers, and the game got a whole lot more dynamic. This isn't discussing the viability of ghosts in your average TvP though. This is discussion fringe/weird situations that maybe one day you'll recognize while playing and want to try.
I hope I can get some interesting replies amidst this "IVE NEVER SEEN THIS MUST SHOOT IT DOWN" posts, which clearly only read the title of this thread.
DTK, I don't think cloak/energy upgrade would be worth upgrading at all. Cloak if you plan to nuke, but for the sake of staying on topic, we're not exactly nuking arbiters.. That is just a possible transition if it appear effective in your situation. It can't be planned out.
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I always imagined it would be good very late TvT with mass BCs and both players are swimming in their minerals and gas. Instead of one BC, a guy gets 6 ghosts. after enough time that's 12 lockdowns.
but i dunno i'm not a terran player
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Didnt ruby get ghosts instead of vessels in a tvp at some point last year?
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On January 14 2011 09:57 Furios wrote:
I always imagined it would be good very late TvT with mass BCs and both players are swimming in their minerals and gas. Instead of one BC, a guy gets 6 ghosts. after enough time that's 12 lockdowns.
but i dunno i'm not a terran player
FireBatHero has opting for ghosts quite a few times in long TvTs And not just ones where's he's already got the advantage, but ones where his ghosts are what create his advantage. Lock down 5 or so battle cruisers + nuke... pretty unforgettable. But only FireBatHero ever did it with regularity.
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They are fragile, so they will easily be killed by storm. But the real big problem is that you won't be able to have much detection, which means dark templar and observers will make your life a living hell. The power of detection is really the most intimidating thing about vessels to me; EMP power isn't nearly as threatening.
Also, teching to ghosts is a costly endeavor and you would have to have some amazing multitask to take down the arbiters before they lay down the stasis. Maybe you could get 1 in time, but what if there's 4? Also, you tech to them so late that the push may come earlier than lockdown.
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All this theorycrafting sounds nice and all, but all of you have not once mentioned about the mobility of ghost vs sci vessel.
In order for a ghost to be effective, its got to be in position to outwit the arb, but arbs move faster than a ghost, hence even if you got the ghost in the right position, enemy arb can still fall back as soon as it spots the ghost coming in for a lockdown. Unless you got a ghost every screen length away, it's going to be hard to for anyone to be pinpoint on their micro.
Other issue that hasnt really been brought up is the vision a sci vessel provides (not just detection). At least you can have a poke with your air unit to see where the clump of their army is without scan.
my 2cents
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On January 14 2011 09:38 Chef wrote:DTK, I don't think cloak/energy upgrade would be worth upgrading at all. Cloak if you plan to nuke, but for the sake of staying on topic, we're not exactly nuking arbiters.. That is just a possible transition if it appear effective in your situation. It can't be planned out.
Ah, yeah, because they'll have obs anyway and cloak cuts into your energy. Still, no energy upgrade?
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I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture.
Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up.
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i hate the whole "since pros arent doing it's not effective" reasoning. People were saying the same shit about Maelstrom. In fact, people were saying the same thing about using a single wraith to defend against shutte play (like 3 years ago). Progamers mimic the metagame just like everyone else, and it takes a lot of risk to be innovative, and a lot of gamers are risk averse at the professional level. After all, they actually have something to play for, like their livelihood.
Regarding the OP: anyone remember the Ruby game when he had ghosts with sci vessels in his late game army composition? That was pretty dope
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On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up.
Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval.
It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble.
With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand.
You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem?
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In regards to the convenience of having vessels for detection, don't forget that you depend even more on your reaction speed if you rely on scans. Running out of energy isn't the only problem. Without a form of detection that's constant and continues when you look away from your army, you're more vulnerable to a dt mine drag or that kind of thing, or simply scanning a moment too late when protoss engages with their main army which is the same effect as a late siege.
When you command an abriter to recall, it instantly creates the first portal over your targetted units for transport, but the second portal which appears under your arbiter, transports the units with about a second's delay after your command. Once the recall has been initiated and the first portal has appeared, an emp won't interrupt it. A lockdown, however, can stop the arbiter mid-recall, giving the ghost about an extra second to work with over the science vessel. That's before considering that ghosts move slower and that you have to directly target the arbiter, but it's still something to consider.
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On January 14 2011 11:38 zobz wrote:
In regards to the convenience of having vessels for detection, don't forget that you depend even more on your reaction speed if you rely on scans. Running out of energy isn't the only problem. Without a form of detection that's constant and continues when you look away from your army, you're more vulnerable to a dt mine drag or that kind of thing, or simply scanning a moment too late when protoss engages with their main army which is the same effect as a late siege.
When you command an abriter to recall, it instantly creates the first portal over your targetted units for transport, but the second portal which appears under your arbiter, transports the units with about a second's delay after your command. Once the recall has been initiated and the first portal has appeared, an emp won't interrupt it. A lockdown, however, can stop the arbiter mid-recall, giving the ghost about an extra second to work with over the science vessel. That's before considering that ghosts move slower and that you have to directly target the arbiter, but it's still something to consider.
In addition, even if you have PERFECT scanning ability and PERFECT ghost micro while PERFECTLY macroing (read: no one) you're using so many scans on army that you can't use them to scout for expos or tech or army position, etc. Scans are critical and having vessels gives you dozens of extra scans to use for intel throughout the game
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On January 14 2011 08:32 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 06:09 Sayle wrote:On January 14 2011 05:15 Chef wrote:
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no? That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting. If pros thought as you say, we would never see any innovation whatsoever. Bisu would never have revolutionized PvZ; after all, 2gate was working fine before that. Fantasy would never have come up with his vulture drop build. Zero wouldn't have used queen/ling to kill Perfectman. Besides Boxer though, did you not see Hiya vs Free on Triathalon? He went 3 port wraith into nukes. Actually it's happened in regular TvP too besides the Triathalon game. It is viable to some degree, Really has done it a few times successfully plus i think maybe Leta. As far as i remember they did not skip Vessels however. The game i mainly remember is Really's... i'm not certain that nukes should be written off as gimmicks in TvP, it worked well in that game for sure.
Nukes in TvP are INCREDIBLY map-dependent.
Match Point and HBR, for example.
Match point you can nuke from the main to the expo right next to it.
HBR you can drop a ghost in the cracks by 11 or 5 and nuke it
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On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval.
In the strategy forum guidelines "Idea" threads are denoted with an [i]. In idea threads, the goal is to discuss a strategy which is unpopular or unrefined. I am not looking for approval of my ideas. I am looking for people to contribute ideas. I thought it was an interesting topic.
What if someone made a topic about using valkyries 2 years ago? No one was using them in pro games. There's a million other things Terran can do. They're expensive. 2 scourges can kill them, they pause when firing, and they require an armory and a bunch of other stuff. They're very situational. But they also have some really useful applications in a variety of places.
What you don't seem to get is that I'm looking for people to generate new ideas. Not just think of reasons things can't work (which generally involves creating a situation where it can't work, which is very much worthless input).
I'm not denying that vessels help a lot when dealing with arbiters. The same way no one would deny that marines and turrets are good defence vs muta harass. But aren't valks an option too? Don't new opportunities open themselves up when you change your response? You can move out quite quickly when you get valks. You have mobility. I think if you're killing more arbs than you normally would, that would equally change the game. You can't think of it in such simple terms. You have to think of how it affects the whole game. I could have just thought about it really hard on my own, but I wanted to utilize the power of many minds to brainstorm. I didn't provide a coherent game plan in the OP. I wanted a discussion. I guess in my queens thread the only reason I got discussion was because Eriador and Chill supported me.
Right now this thread has just turned into me trying to steer people toward what the topic is about, so nothing is getting done. It's pretty pathetic. Vessels are a very natural choice. I want to talk about what ghosts can offer. Why is that so hard? Ghosts don't even have to be better. I just want to think about how they would change the game.
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On January 14 2011 12:41 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. In the strategy forum guidelines "Idea" threads are denoted with an [i]. In idea threads, the goal is to discuss a strategy which is unpopular or unrefined. I am not looking for approval of my ideas. I am looking for people to contribute ideas. I thought it was an interesting topic. What if someone made a topic about using valkyries 2 years ago? No one was using them in pro games. There's a million other things Terran can do. They're expensive. 2 scourges can kill them, they pause when firing, and they require an armory and a bunch of other stuff. They're very situational. But they also have some really useful applications in a variety of places. What you don't seem to get is that I'm looking for people to generate new ideas. Not just think of reasons things can't work (which generally involves creating a situation where it can't work, which is very much worthless input). I'm not denying that vessels help a lot when dealing with arbiters. The same way no one would deny that marines and turrets are good defence vs muta harass. But aren't valks an option too? Don't new opportunities open themselves up when you change your response? You can move out quite quickly when you get valks. You have mobility. I think if you're killing more arbs than you normally would, that would equally change the game. You can't think of it in such simple terms. You have to think of how it affects the whole game. I could have just thought about it really hard on my own, but I wanted to utilize the power of many minds to brainstorm. I didn't provide a coherent game plan in the OP. I wanted a discussion. I guess in my queens thread the only reason I got discussion was because Eriador and Chill supported me. Right now this thread has just turned into me trying to steer people toward what the topic is about, so nothing is getting done. It's pretty pathetic. Vessels are a very natural choice. I want to talk about what ghosts can offer. Why is that so hard? Ghosts don't even have to be better. I just want to think about how they would change the game.
The fact is that there isn't a terran player in the world that can play the lategame properly without vessels. It's too hard to always instantly scan where you need it when you need it, allowing you to take unnecesary damage during your reaction time. EMP is a spell with a whole lot more utility than lockdown, and vessels as big fast fat flying balls are a lot easier to control than ghosts which die very easily and are hard to pick out. What should be in the discussion is not use of only ghosts and no vessels (this isn't viable) but perhaps the idea of incorporating ghosts AND vessels into your army composition. This is of course a question dependent on maps your opponent's army composition (arb count/templar count/carriers?)
Notice how no one in the world uses exclusively valks to defend against muta harass, you'll die to well controlled muta/scourge if you don't have some other form of antiair (marines/turrets, although sometimes greedy progamers try to get away with no turrets and just microing hard if they're planning on eventually switching to mech--that way they don't have to build an e-bay). The same applies here. Using ghosts without vessels is just dumb since there are roles the vessel fits that the ghost simply does not. Using them both in tandem however is a possibility
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a lot of people seem to think that you have to use one or the other. why not mix both up? for the sake of upgrades, you will have a sci facility + starport anyway, so its not like you have to do extensive teching to reach one or the other. you can use vessels with your army, ghost to lockdown recalls and nuke if the map/situation permits, and this way you can get the benefit of both.
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You have to get both EMP upgrade and Lockdown upgrade, but I think that's a viable thought. It seems to have happened in at least a few pro games as well, but I'd like to see people trying to bring ghosts with their army a few times.
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On January 14 2011 13:19 Chef wrote:
You have to get both EMP upgrade and Lockdown upgrade, but I think that's a viable thought. It seems to have happened in at least a few pro games as well, but I'd like to see people trying to bring ghosts with their army a few times.
yeah
yeah, im thinking even if you want to go ghosts, theres no way you cant have any vessels at all just for the detection they offer. honestly, if you are far enough into the game to be at ghost/vessel tech, you are pretty much working off 3 gases, so i think the costs of the upgrades are really not that big of a deal... each upgrade is like sacrificing 1 tank, and since you already will get one upgrade or the other if you play normally, you are really just sacrificing one tank to reach the extra tech.
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This reminds me of my brother. He said when I was little that against goons and zealots, he'd go tank ghost. Not very viable, but nostalgic :D
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Using both vessels and ghosts sounds more viable, yet it stretches your gas supply pretty thin. Each ghost is potentially one less tank for a unit that won't survive a few seconds of combat, which is a pretty significant risk. I suppose you can always compensate with more vultures, but there's a point at which you really need tanks rather than mines, especially if they do get good stasis fields.
Perhaps it would be useful at a specific point in the game though.
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Canada11349 Posts
re Ghosts and SVs. Assuming it's not an either/ or but a both/and- one would be getting less of both or else less tanks. Which would be the better order? Get one SV for detection/ def matrix, then a couple ghosts with lockdown and add emp later? Or skip SVs to get ghosts with lockdown first, then add SVs.
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Canada8031 Posts
Having one or two science vessels is probably necessary, if only for detection purposes.
What if you used ghosts to create goon walls? The whole point of having vultures and minefields is essentially to slow the protoss force so that your tanks can melt them. It'd be like a poor man's equivalent of forcefield.
Observers lose detection when lockdowned, but this doesn't really seem like a great use of the spell, considering its energy cost.
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Ghost would be good against SKT toss i think. Best/Bisu like to go 2base arbs which removes one of the positive points for vessels (emp affects both arbs and temp). so i think that against 2base arbs mass recall strategies ghosts are very viable.
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One extra benefit of locking down dragoons is that it becomes an obstacle all the other units have to go around, albeit not a very big one. A few lockdowns could create a real block though, almost like having a supply wall except that it wouldn't draw fire.
Maybe they could also be used to block a ramp in a base that's being drop-harassed. It could be used the same way stasis is sometimes used. As long as it was enemy dragoons you were locking down, it would block fairly well and force the remaining units to manually target their own comrades to get up the ramp. It would be harder to make a zealot-tight seal though. Not really worth it overall.
It would be pretty neat to make a nuke-attack with multiple ghosts. Two or three could stand cloaked around the target as decoys. Ghosts can be ordered to stand still without shooting while cloaked though i'm not sure whether it's with hold or stop. When the enemy forces arrive you could lockdown the observer, and it would be very hard to defend. They'd have to come with more than one observer at the ready, and even then you could still possibly lockdown all of them. In this way you could have a good chance of taking down a base even if he knows right away what the target is, and you could thus feel more free to just attack his probes so that they can't avoid damage just by dodging the nuke.
You could also block a ramp with 2-4 cloaked ghosts, and lockdown any observer that comes along. Since their units can't even get in, what you have in their base doesn't even have to be cloaked, thus ghost/tank drops, or ghost/vulture drops. Cannons in range of the ramp at either the top or bottom could be a problem, however. Theoretically you could use your tanks to kill any such cannons as the first order of business, then move on as quickly as possible to cloak-blocking the ramp and sieging the nexus. But that, or a couple dragoons with an observer posted at the ramp by a protoss who knows you're going ghosts, may make things more difficult for you. Still, as in its time DT harass vs zerg demonstrated, putting strain on your opponent to defend new and unexpected tactics in a thorough and solid way is often a good strategy in itself. It can be stopped, but can your opponent stop it?
It would be most useful of all for locking down carriers, and for nukes. The rest could simply act as a small bonus to justify that. In fact with many options layed out it's just likely that your opponent will have trouble defending against all of them consistently, to the point where you should be able to benefit from having a few ghosts around.
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-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
Makes them harder for you to click as well Also, I'm not sure why it matters if it's harder for the enemy to spot them...
wont a ghost in an army be hk'd?
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I've seen gretorp playing around with ghosts at around B level back when he used to stream bw. I don't remember exactly, but I do remember them being very effective as defense against recalls.
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On January 14 2011 21:41 gongryong wrote:Show nested quote +-Ghosts are smaller, and harder to spot amongst the terran army than vessels
Makes them harder for you to click as well Also, I'm not sure why it matters if it's harder for the enemy to spot them... wont a ghost in an army be hk'd?
Yeah, and obviously you know where your own units are because you're moving them around lol. It's not a major point since most decent toss will be able to find it in a second or two, but that second or two might be what you need to get your lock down off. Whereas if you see a big vessel you pretty much know what to do with your Arbs.
Thank you to whoever mentioned SKT Protoss.. 2base arbs. That's a good point, since they don't have the gas to build templar even though they technically have all the buildings.
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On January 14 2011 06:09 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 05:15 Chef wrote:
That's not a logical statement. There are a number of reasons progamers aren't using units like queens and ghosts, and the main one is 'what I'm doing is working, so I'm not going to waste my time developing something completely new.' There are a number of ways to live one's life, and if what's working for you is working right now, why would you suddenly change? In any case, this is an IDEA thread about THEORY so thanks for telling me that progamers aren't doing it yet? Kind of the point, no? That is completely false. Progamers practice for 12 hours a day every day. They have plenty of time to try out new strategies. More importantly, they train together as teams, which gives them the opportunity to discuss and experiment with new strategies in custom games rather than just trying to win on a ladder. I can 100% guarantee you that many pros have tried using ghosts in their games. The reason nobody does it is that these pros have found it to be less viable than other options after hundreds of games of experimenting.
Chef, Sayle is right on this one. If by feasible you mean being used in a game in a more or less standard manner, there is no better way to test a certain strategy or BO than in progamer practice rooms. with hundreds of them and thousand of hours poured into practice, it is logical to think that ghost play has been exhausted to a considerable degree already. the fact that it has not become used in any considerable way could only mean that nothing substantial has come out of it. still, there is always a day when someone just wakes up with a spark of brilliance and discover/invents/executes it. but not now.
otoh, there have been potential uses for it, namely:
1. catch off guard opponent arbiter who is expecting a vessel
2. nuke drops
3. army combo vs all lockable units in open field war
as you can, in all scenarios above, all we've seen in progames at one time or another, the element of surprise and deception is crucial. yet it is easy to counter and adapt to it that it just undermines its purpose bottomline. which is why they are not used (often). xD
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Was it logical to think Valkarie play had been exhausted after 8 years of 10h practice days? Clearly not, since suddenly in 2008 it started becoming very popular.
Having watched SC for so long, I've seen how this game evolves. It is a combination of new maps being made to compensate for balance when players discover new strategies, and of new maps unexpectedly creating new viable strategies. But if something is working right now, players tend to continue doing it. Players didn't even use Vessels to counter Arbiters for a long time. It used to JUST be scans. Likewise, people didn't even used to use arbiters. It used to just be carrier/ground switches. Just because this game is 12 years old and people play it 10 hours a day doesn't mean it's figured out. Far from it
Both you and Sayle are really pissing me off by derailing this thread and not contributing. Please stop posting here unless you have good ideas. Vessels with EMP used to be considered gimmicky/gosulol too. Now it's basically mandatory.
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On January 14 2011 06:15 CaffeineFree-_- wrote:
Getting ghosts is something you can do if you've got a surplus. If your strapped for gas you should definitely be getting vessels over ghosts.
Pretty much this, if you are low on gas, vessels take priority since they can take shields and detect. Late game adding ghosts is perfectly fine to lower the arb count or dealing with a carrier switch. (one lockdown guarantees a carrier kill so they start to add up)
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I've tried ghosts for a while. I haven't had success even though that's more due to me being bad than any inherent disadvantage of ghosts. To me, the one advantage of ghosts is that in a battle, whatever unit you lock down (arb/carrier or even a shuttle) is an almost guaranteed kill, whereas in a normal battle, even if you win the battle the arb/carriers will always be able to retreat and live to see another day. With EMP, you hit the arb, you feel awesome about yourself and a few minutes later the arb comes back and you either have to EMP again or get stasised. The guaranteed kills that lockdown provides is a pretty good feeling and forces the protoss to spend more gas on their shiny units
I was having trouble fitting ghosts into my play. I don't really know when to get it and the extra gas you're dumping into it (cov ops, LD research in addition to the 3-4 ghosts you'll probably want) would be better served getting the vessel upgrades/armory upgrades/a few extra tanks until well after you've secured your 3rd and have about 180 supply, in which case the ghost becomes more of an afterthought "might as well" sort of tech instead of being incorporated into your regular game plan
Trying to time your ghost so that it has enough energy on time for a 2 base recall can be dangerous, as your ghosts can't be everywhere at once and there's no way to guarantee that you can stop the recall
As for the micro argument: I think the hard thing about ghost compared with vessel is that they don't fly, so vessel is easy to move around. Ghosts can get stuck behind units whereas a vessel will never ever get stuck behind your army. Though I find EMP a headache to aim whereas lockdown is pretty easy to aim
I don't think ghosts are really that expensive when you consider that it can take out the shiniest protoss units. The problem with them is that they are at a kinda awkward place in the tech tree, and building a cov ops means not upgrading from your science facility (during the time cov ops is building), so people typically want to research energy/EMP for vessel before even considering covert ops, and by that time it's more of a "hey I can build ghosts, cool" rather than any actual plan to get ghosts. I think we saw some similar arguments against Maelstrom, where incorporating early mael into your PvZ means skipping storm
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Well, since the game has shifted from Terran getting 2-3 base vs Protoss 3-4, and is instead now Terran 4-5 base vs Protoss 6-7, I don't think it's an after thought to get ghosts when your economy is that strong. At that point you have the resources to get whatever, and a Vessel/ghost tech is certainly possible. However, getting to that kind of scenario is something only very good players do regularly. Terrans at lower levels tend not to know how to expand that much, and when they do, tend not to know what to do with all their money/are already winning.
I feel like it's very true that ghosts can get stuck behind units, but Zergs have been dealing with that with their defilers for years now. I think that Protoss usually are the ones trying to attack the Terran, so as long as you have your ghosts by/or just in front of your tank line, you should be able to lockdown one or two arbs.
Edit: do people really research energy upgrade for vessels in PvT? That seems really pointless. EMP costs 100. No matter what you do, that's always only going to be 2 EMPs, and maybe a slightly quicker recharge for the third one. With Irradiate vs zerg it's a lot better since you can get 3 irradiates off in quick succession, but vessels are so mobile in that matchup that you should be irradiating before you ever get to 200 energy anyway. I don't think the covert ops takes very long to build though, does it? you start teching to SVs when you scan an arbiter tribunal, it doesn't mean you need those vessels right when you scan it. Since you need 100 energy to cast EMP, the earliest you want to even start researching it is right after your vessel has finished building. That's plenty of time to build the covert ops.
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On January 15 2011 01:58 Chef wrote:
Well, since the game has shifted from Terran getting 2-3 base vs Protoss 3-4, and is instead now Terran 4-5 base vs Protoss 6-7, I don't think it's an after thought to get ghosts when your economy is that strong. At that point you have the resources to get whatever, and a Vessel/ghost tech is certainly possible. However, getting to that kind of scenario is something only very good players do regularly. Terrans at lower levels tend not to know how to expand that much, and when they do, tend not to know what to do with all their money/are already winning.
I feel like it's very true that ghosts can get stuck behind units, but Zergs have been dealing with that with their defilers for years now. I think that Protoss usually are the ones trying to attack the Terran, so as long as you have your ghosts by/or just in front of your tank line, you should be able to lockdown one or two arbs.
Edit: do people really research energy upgrade for vessels in PvT? That seems really pointless. EMP costs 100. No matter what you do, that's always only going to be 2 EMPs, and maybe a slightly quicker recharge for the third one. With Irradiate vs zerg it's a lot better since you can get 3 irradiates off in quick succession, but vessels are so mobile in that matchup that you should be irradiating before you ever get to 200 energy anyway. I don't think the covert ops takes very long to build though, does it? you start teching to SVs when you scan an arbiter tribunal, it doesn't mean you need those vessels right when you scan it. Since you need 100 energy to cast EMP, the earliest you want to even start researching it is right after your vessel has finished building. That's plenty of time to build the covert ops.
If the Protoss is doing a 3 base arb build, you can get ghosts out and place them in each of your bases and start lockdown before stasis is complete.
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On January 14 2011 17:50 Spazer wrote:
Observers lose detection when lockdowned, but this doesn't really seem like a great use of the spell, considering its energy cost.
Medics with flare are better for this. Less teching, less energy, bit larger range, less worry about them dying in battle due to attack priority, protoss needs to waste time to check his observers for blind status. It is also fun to watch blind shuttles bumping into turrets and marines.
Anyway, I believe terrans should use vessels and ghosts as well. Vessels are pretty much needed for that constant detection, but ghosts are much cheaper and seemingly better alternative for stopping recalls instead of expensive gas-filled floating balls patrolling the edge of nowhere.
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i just played a tvp with a friend i believe ghosts are way better, when he attacked me and i immediately lockdowned his 2 arbs his army melted waaaay faster and the arbs were sure kill. we are both d+ level haha
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Both you and Sayle are really pissing me off by derailing this thread and not contributing. Please stop posting here unless you have good ideas. Vessels with EMP used to be considered gimmicky/gosulol too. Now it's basically mandatory.
think of it as a dialectic process: there has to be a change somewhere else - map, new BO, new approach to vT, etc (as you obviously point recognize) before anything substantial has to happen to ghost play. you cant just say ghost is underused and might be viable without considering the proper context that your idea isn't new and has been thought of before, and that because you think there is a viable use for it then suddenly there is. like you also say, the game evolves. are there new maps, new XvT stategies, new BOs? so far nothing very significant. well unless there is a new map where there is a small island with lots of trees across the mineral line and out of the workers vision but where you have vision to them, then you can tuck a ghost there and nuke away (j/k :p)
what im saying is take it easy man. no need to be pissed off, we are just discussing here
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On January 15 2011 04:21 icystorage wrote:
i just played a tvp with a friend i believe ghosts are way better, when he attacked me and i immediately lockdowned his 2 arbs his army melted waaaay faster and the arbs were sure kill. we are both d+ level haha
That's anecdotal evidence, only one game, and D+ level.
I personally am D+. Frankly, I would go out and try this in games myself, but I doubt it would mean much, because the skill level is so low. The Protoss and I are probably going into the late game having made a number of large mistakes that would affect any findings on the viability of ghosts.
For example, the Protoss could forget Arbiter tech for a while, or the Terran might gets ghost and lockdown too early at the sacrifice of his army or upgrades or something, with the Protoss not taking advantage of this mistake when a higher level Protoss would.
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I think ghosts have a much greater usage against carriers than arbiters. The thing about locking arbs is that it doesn't really net you the win in a fight. It can make things better for you (less tanks statis'ed) but all-in all, the arbiter is still just one of the support units in the midst of a large army. The shield killing ability of EMP shouldn't be ignored along with templar neutering. I think ghosts can be great against carriers though, as locking down a carrier can often mean a dead carrier, and each single carrier carries a lot more value monetarily and strategically than individual arbs.
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On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble. With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand. You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem?
Well detection is never a problem that late of a game, but vessels are much more preferred at that point of game than ghosts because they are much more mobile than ghosts. Stopping recall with vessel also seems more viable because they can fly around unwalkable terrains to look for the arbiters.
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On January 15 2011 20:13 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2011 11:06 Lightwip wrote:On January 14 2011 10:48 Chef wrote:I mentioned it in the OP. Feel free to elaborate on it, though I don't think it's a smart idea to scout with Science Vessels though... those cost a lot of gas and Toss army is all dragoons. In the late game when you've got three scanners, it's better to use those, or a random 75 mineral vulture. Lightwip, how is the multitask required for ghosts any more demanding than that of Vessels? I don't see how DTs are such a threat when you've got 3+ scanners... Teching to ghosts is literally 50minerals and gas more than science vessels so... Yeah... I give up. Ok seriously, it's fine to ask people to listen to your ideas, but it sounds like you're not too willing to listen to criticism and just want approval. It's not money that's particularly costly for ghosts, it's time. Covert ops and lockdown takes some time to make, in which you could be in trouble. With 3 CCs of scans, you may have maybe half-full energy, so 6 scans. Say you also lose one in a recall. Is it really that hard to attack multiple places and use up 4 scans at most, then attack the army with a few arbiters, hovering it behind the dragoons to save them from ghosts while rendering your own army useless against the attackers? What about hidden expos and tech that could be hidden while you have to save your scans? A DT can take 2-3 scans if you use it with a shuttle effectively. They can certainly be annoying when you're trying to expand. You have to target 4 arbiters individually right as they approach your tank line, and you may not even have them all in position to stop it at that exact moment. Is this somehow not a problem? Well detection is never a problem that late of a game, but vessels are much more preferred at that point of game than ghosts because they are much more mobile than ghosts. Stopping recall with vessel also seems more viable because they can fly around unwalkable terrains to look for the arbiters.
Vessels & arbs don't show up just in the late game, they show up in the midgame, when players are on 2 bases (3 if they're lucky, but 2 base arbs isn't unusual). Scans/detection are definitely a problem without vessels, especially if your opponents knows you don't/won't have that tech. If the opponent continues to test your army, approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out. When that happens, you're stuck turtling by your turrets.
Vessels are preferred because of mobility though, and EMP is a godsend. Stopping recalls, templars, or even just cutting shields off all their zealots so they die before reaching the tank wall.
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approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out.
But how can he back off if his arbiter is... Locked Down... mwahhahaha. No seriously. How? Scans aren't finite, you know. They only cost 50 energy. The advantage of vessels is that there is no delay, your units will just fire as soon as something comes in range, but killing Arbs has increible strategic value... It means the Protoss can't engage with you until he gets another arb and waits for said arb to build up 100 energy. Just watch some TvPs and look for situations where you'll think 'man, if only that guy had lockdown right now.' Protoss get pretty arrogant with their arbs. LD would stop that completely.
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On January 16 2011 01:19 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +approach with his arb + goons, take a few shots, back off, you constantly have to throw up scans, and you will run out. But how can he back off if his arbiter is... Locked Down... mwahhahaha. No seriously. How? Scans aren't finite, you know. They only cost 50 energy. The advantage of vessels is that there is no delay, your units will just fire as soon as something comes in range, but killing Arbs has increible strategic value... It means the Protoss can't engage with you until he gets another arb and waits for said arb to build up 100 energy. Just watch some TvPs and look for situations where you'll think 'man, if only that guy had lockdown right now.' Protoss get pretty arrogant with their arbs. LD would stop that completely.
imo, I see Arbs like vessels in TvZ. If too many are allowed to live, the Protoss will be able to stasis or recall all they want.
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My sugestion is to get both vessls and ghosts, you dont have to used both of them, just the one you feel is more effective at each point, or the one that will guarantee a better effect.
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People arguing against ghosts are misguided in this bizarre all ghosts or all vessels mentality.
As was pointed out in page one, ghosts are very cheap compared to vessels gas wise and they are also cheap enough supply wise.
The real implications of the question being asked isn't whether ghosts should be used at all, but how many vessels do you need before they become redundant and ghosts become a better investment and at what ratios should you have ghosts to vessels.
No matter what, to get ghosts you need the tech for vessels. So it may be prudent to eventually have both and use the savings on gas to get a smidgen more tanks. (bah I really needed to proof read this post)
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If people start using Ghosts, then inevitably, Protoss would start making Dark Archons to feedback them out of existence before they can lockdown the Arbiters. Well, they would... except it's not very practical.
As for a comparison of practicality, Ghosts simply will not beat out Science Vessels, because, for example, 3 Ghosts are the same cost as 1 Vessel (3 x 75 = 225) in terms of gas. Let's see you have a Protoss army with 3 Arbiters and 5 High Templar accompanying it. You can lockdown 3 vessels with 3 cloaked ghosts while moving your army towards the Protoss, and the High Templar will still have energy, -OR- you can fire off one EMP, and disable all 3 Arbiters and all the High Templar AND knock out all the shields on every Protoss unit. So, why would you pick Ghosts over Science Vessels if you had to pick one or the other?
The only situations I think of where you'd want to use Ghosts over Science Vessels then boils down to:
1 - You are so much better than your Protoss opponent that you know you won't need Science Vessels to beat him, so you can make the trade-off and humiliate them by nuking/lockdown.
2 - You want to lose.
I really don't think you should have to make a choice, though. If you can afford Ghosts, and think you meet the APM requirement to be able to lockdown a Arbiter heading into your base, then go for it. I just personally would never recommend Ghosts over Science Vessels ever.
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Way to ignore almost the entire discussion in order to post some obvious, hollow cynicism. You obviously just read the OP or maybe even just the title for that matter and used it to fuel a fool's rant. Wait how did i not miss that last paragraph wtf? I would cry ninja edit but clearly not. My apologies.
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EPT
