EPTNever really looked at the details like this. Good post.
[A] why is dreamliner THAT imbalanced ZvT - Page 2
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Rinrun
Canada3509 Posts
Never really looked at the details like this. Good post. | ||
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Gustav_Wind
United States646 Posts
On July 11 2010 08:17 ImaginationStation wrote: gigantic post about the fast vessel build and about how standard TvZ solves the problem 1. the fast vessel build is miserably bad vs 2 hatch muta, especially the extra fast 2 hatch muta provided by 12 pool gas. You don't produce nearly enough marines to hold them off. 2. the second half of your post seems to be suggesting that the most standard TvZ build is the solution to the perceived problem. I think you are severely understimating how good 2 hatch muta is. The part about putting pressure on the zerg and forcing them to spend money on defense is textbook TvZ. that doesn't change anything about how to fight 2 hatch muta on this map. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
wow awesome post, thanks i dont think the map is as imba as the stats show, a lot of these games seem to just be the terran failing or the zerg playing really good (action vs forgg, zero vs really). hopfully terrans will figure out how to defend vs 2 hatch better though. maybe when flash plays on it he'll show them how. omg what a fantastic post!! but the map is not that imba i think.... defending 2 hatch is probably the key for terrans.. and also the 3rd expo for zerg isn't than easy to take anyway nice article mate! That was a good read, it should help me determine results on this map. Never really looked at the details like this. Good post. Nice write-up, I'm really looking forward to seeing another TvZ on Dreamliner now. thanks for all the positive feedback guys... I really appreciate that (especially since it took me about 6 hours to write that...  ZerO vs  Really was so damn long) | ||
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No_Roo
United States905 Posts
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TerranUp16
United States88 Posts
Anyway, I have been a little surprised to not see mech, Valkonic, or Valk-mech. Leta's Wraiths were certainly a treat, but I was expecting the Terran response to this map might be more like it was with Triathlon. The first TvZ on Triathlon (well, first televised one that I know of) was Baby v Jaedong, and Baby went 2-Port Wraiths into mech. His response on why he used the build? He figured Terran had to do something special to win on that map. I can't remember how Hiya won his game and there's no VOD, but the third TvZ was Sea versus Kwanro. There we see a plan for Valkonic, because it allows Sea to secure the back expo despite Mutas; ofc, this plan falls to pieces as Kwanro shifts to a Lurker break and I think everything beyond that is pure improv. Then we have Flash v Action, where Flash goes Valk-mech, managing to safeguard the back expansion while building a sizable force of Gols to pressure Action's natural and force Sunkens, and meanwhile clearing the way for Flash to take his other natural (and then a fourth courtesy of the natural pushing path of mech). The first four games on Triathlon all resulted in T wins, and at least three of those four involved non-standard play- the map presented a challenge and valiant Terrans rose to the occasion. Now, Triathlon and Dreamliner are very different maps, but the response to Triathlon does show that Terrans are willing to rise to the occasion (not saying Triathlon is imba for Z, simply that Terrans felt the need to go outside the box to win on it). What's also interesting is that three of those Terrans have played TvZ on Dreamliner and the results are disappointing. Sea v Great, as swanized pointed out, is tough to criticize because Great went outside the box and won because (or in spite? Great is on fire right now and could definitely beat Sea "straight-up") of that, but at the same time, Sea didn't (and it perhaps did cost him). Baby and Hiya... we don't quite know what they might have done because they ended their games shortly, but perhaps those even tell us something. (I would definitely say that both were against opponents they "should beat"). Was Baby's zeal to Bunker rush driven by poor decision-making, or a statement about his feeling towards the map? But at the same time, we did get to see Leta's great game. And yet, to continue on just a bit more, we then saw Baby, the man that successfully executed a 2-Port Wraith opening on Triathlon against the most fearsome Zerg in StarCraft right now, resort to cheese- is Leta's performance not repeatable? Is it the only way to win and does it require catching the Zerg off-guard or significantly outplaying them? Certainly, there are those that will point out the disastrous end of Kwanro's attempted break (you'd think he would have learned after trying it against Sea  ) and ask what could have been had Kwanro not attempted such, although in Kwanro's defense, few in the stream when he originally made the decision saw fit to complain until after it failed.But, really awesome thread with quite an interesting premise, one that will stick with me as I continue to watch this OSL. Tbh, I am quite hoping that Fantasy gets a crack at TvZ on this map since, well, he's Fantasy, dur. If there is an active Terran that can pull something funky and workable like Leta did, it's Fantasy (or Flash, who surprised me twice on Triathlon with his TvZs and who has just been full of surprises these past few months; Valkonic with nigh perfect execution on Odd-Eye 2 against Jaedong was notable xD). But there's always the fear that the short rush distance restricts how much Terrans can look to tech for a solution (as well, even for bio, that lower path is brutal for pushing out as SkyHigh did as it allows the M&M to be separated from the natural far easier than usual, and Ssak's odd Super Wall attempt conveys an uneasiness in Terrans about that rush distance). | ||
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writer22816
United States5775 Posts
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
Nice analysis. Slightly mystified that you didn't mention the positional imbalance for the 6 v 3 (6's mineral line is not against a map edge while 3's is). Tbh it probably doesn't matter since T is going to secure that natural, which in turn helps defend that mineral line (could even make the argument that fact makes it a better position), just felt it was noteworthy nonetheless. woops...totally forgot about that  anyways in my opinion it does not matter all that much since 3 is harder to harass because it's up against the edge of the map but 6 is easier to turret up since you can turret your natural and you the back of that min line at the same time | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
Certainly, there are those that will point out the disastrous end of Kwanro's attempted break (you'd think he would have learned after trying it against Sea ) and ask what could have been had Kwanro not attempted such, although in Kwanro's defense, few in the stream when he originally made the decision saw fit to complain until after it failed. I don't think going for the break was as bad of a decision then most people make it sound like. yeah it failed but it is easy to criticize afterwards...truth is that bust had(in my opinion) decent chances of success but it failed. it makes me think of the saints on-side kick during the superbowl. Now this was a genius move but had it failed it would have been one of the most retarded moves of superbowl history | ||
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BAdGer_
United States80 Posts
i unfortunately have been too busy to watch most of the games so i was anticipating a person doing an in-depth analysis and i am blown away by the writeup and some of the responses  a couple of points: Zerg definitely seems to have the advantage, or all the Terran players are just playing like that. However, 2 games were unscouted all-ins which doesn't count for much i could definitely see a proxy rax a bit behind/outside the natural and if it was unscouted the Terran would win duh  2 games the Zerg player just played so much better ( ZerO and great) and who the f*ck is Ssak to take on Jaedongthat leaves us with only a few games where Zerg players abused the short air distance to win, where they might not have won playing a normal game however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read: Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)Honestly in my opinion BaBy could have won his game (awesome dropship play anyone?) and the caliber of Zergs compared to Terrans has definitely been a bit imba, however i belive that if the terrans stop playing like they have no chance (maybe b/c the easy third gas i dunno...) and took some initiative they could win (Leta did...)just for speculation... could good turrets +mech work? tanks look like they work pretty well on this map and it denies any Ultra rush a zerg might try bio looks like it could be huge (especially since some expos look like they can be cliffed?) and vessels which are always useful, in this map have a lot more potential because in the middle lane they barely have to move to look at the other 2 lanes and snipe defilers (that last point is really up in the air it just made sense to me )and the king of kings, Dropship Play should lay some serious hurt on the Zerg, especially if its before Dark Swarm ( ZerO's late defilers could have really hurt him if he wasn't playing an uninspiring Really)Why did BaBy act so stupid? why!?In conclusion expect the Ro16 to have some sweet games on this map i am not too worried about the easy 12pool gas-->2hatch muta because the players will work it into the metagame and it will shift (or we will see a crapload of 2port wraiths) oh and unscouted rushes hopefully won't work anyhow great analysis of the map and a big thank you for covering all the  dreamliner games in one thread, the ZerO - Really game was awesomeness | ||
Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
Once Terran grabs that third base and starts pumping Tanks, it'll be real hard for Zerg to break that without a concentrated push. Impossible to tell at this point in my opinion. | ||
Waxangel
United States33502 Posts
also, IIRC, the rush distance on this map is 30 seconds, which is very standard. | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
On July 12 2010 06:31 Waxangel wrote: small sample size + many of the games had a better ZvT player = wait 15 more games (or more) also, IIRC, the rush distance on this map is 30 seconds, which is very standard. hmm yeah but waiting around 15 more TvZ on dreamliner leads to... semi-finals? Finals? next OSL? thought it would be nice to have an analysis of why Terrans are losing so far before the finals... On July 12 2010 03:48 Mystlord wrote: I don't think you can call this map imbalanced at all. We've seen a lot of Zerg players pick up their game recently, and Terrans haven't gone back to the style Flash pioneered on Match Point to counter the 2 Hatch goodness. 2 Port wraith is another solid option, but we haven't seen too many games with that either. Once Terran grabs that third base and starts pumping Tanks, it'll be real hard for Zerg to break that without a concentrated push. Impossible to tell at this point in my opinion. while what you say is true I called it imbalanced so far because Terrans SERIOUSLY did not have a clue about what to do about that muta harass. As I stated in the OP when Terrans manage to fend it off I still feel it will be zerg favored but not imbalanced yeah Tank push might be strong but flanking once Terran gets into area A is somewhat easy so it might not be as strong as you think...still powerful though On July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote: Props on analyzing the most defining map this OSL Season! i unfortunately have been too busy to watch most of the games so i was anticipating a person doing an in-depth analysis and i am blown away by the writeup and some of the responses a couple of points: Zerg definitely seems to have the advantage, or all the Terran players are just playing like that. However, 2 games were unscouted all-ins which doesn't count for much i could definitely see a proxy rax a bit behind/outside the natural and if it was unscouted the Terran would win duh 2 games the Zerg player just played so much better ( ZerO and great) and who the f*ck is Ssak to take on Jaedongthat leaves us with only a few games where Zerg players abused the short air distance to win, where they might not have won playing a normal game however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read: Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)Thanks :p now as I said it's not like the game where the air distance was abused where really numerous but rather that when Z did abuse it... Terrans did not have a clue what to do about it On July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote: and the king of kings, Dropship Play should lay some serious hurt on the Zerg, especially if its before Dark Swarm ( ZerO's late defilers could have really hurt him if he wasn't playing an uninspiring Really)Why did BaBy act so stupid? why!?maybe dropship play might hurt but Zero really practiced this a lot in practice game and if we look at the mini-map ![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/2vbr09i.jpg) we can see (circled in red) that ZerO has overlords there so he has a good reaction time considering it takes time to Actually get from the overlords to the zerg base and to unload the MnM... you can also see that ZerO's rally  Point(circled in Green) is quite close to his base so I'm not sure if a drop would be THAT devastatingmy guess is that ZerO encountered that a lot in practice and that's how he thought he could deal with it...ideally you want to have defilers to deal with it of course but I think ZerO could do it without too much damageOn July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote: however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read: Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)while that is true what if the guy who solves that problem plays last? how many Terrans will survive Dreamliner? I really hope that we don't get another ZvZ final. I absolutely can't wait for the ro16 Edit: took me 209 posts to figure out how to incorporate Name of user and Date... fail | ||
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Servius_Fulvius
United States947 Posts
Practice time may have something to do with it. Right now all the proleague matches are taking center stage. While we, as spectators, love to watch the individual leagues, the team proleague seems to be where progamer attention focuses. | ||
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terranissharin
37 Posts
[B] ![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/155qqhe.jpg) The middle push distance looks like it gives just as much space if not more than the green strong push distance. | ||
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swanized
Canada2480 Posts
The middle push distance looks like it gives just as much space if not more than the green strong push distance. you did not read OP closely enough ^^ the point of the green push distance is to give an high ground advantage to the pusher not to get more space On July 12 2010 12:06 Servius_Fulvius wrote: There have been 9 zvt's. I think it's a little premature to start screaming about map imbalance. Zerg found a strategy that works, now terran needs to find a way around it. Practice time may have something to do with it. Right now all the proleague matches are taking center stage. While we, as spectators, love to watch the individual leagues, the team proleague seems to be where progamer attention focuses. my answer: On July 12 2010 08:49 swanized wrote: hmm yeah but waiting around 15 more TvZ on dreamliner leads to... semi-finals? Finals? next OSL? thought it would be nice to have an analysis of why Terrans are losing so far before the finals... pay attention to the so far...I have already stated in the comments that while I think Terrans will find a way around the short air distance and when this happens I think it will be a zerg favored map nonetheless but not unplayable for Terrans and I think it will give awesome games. (I even said it in OP) edit:I edited OP so as to say that I agree that 9 games is a pretty small sample. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
A possibility that may work for fixing balance would be to remove the gas from the natural. This would weaken Zerg's early game, although I'm inclined to think it will also weaken Protoss's early game against Zerg because Zerg can easily double expand with the second expansion at a gas base, thus securing 2 gas bases anyway, while the Protoss will be stuck on one. I think TvP balance would actually remain okay. | ||
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iNdo-Man
United States191 Posts
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Elroi
Sweden5599 Posts
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