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Canada2480 Posts
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Canada2480 Posts
god that was long...anyone knows why sometimes videos did embed and sometimes not?
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Try taking the "#!" off of the end of the youtube links.
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Canada2480 Posts
Try taking the "#!" off of the end of the youtube links.
ahhh thanks
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I think one of the main reasons why kwanro lost was because he retardedly suicided half of his army into leta's natural for no reason.
I actually don't think leta took advantage of the short air rush to much of an extent. He only really started drone-killing in the mid game when he had a gazillion wraiths.
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Canada2480 Posts
yeah but what I meant is that Leta probably had the right idea when he decided to do that. beside he got plenty of overlords kills if I recall...anyways even had kwanro not suicided his army and eventually won the game it would had been the closest a T would have been of winning on dreamliner...thus I think this is probably the best answer to zerg on that map atm imo
and yes trying for the bust there was not the smartest move
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3rd gas too easy to take.... you crazy? There isn't even a ramp to defend infinite mnm with 2 lurkers like any other map. Instead its wide open on both sides. Probably explains why so many zergs are allining this map. Terrans just don't seem to be used to the close distance yet so they're losing to speedlings and 12 pool -> 2 hatch muta.
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Canada2480 Posts
just camping an army in area A secures the third gas pretty well...if T moves out into area A then you can retreat your army into green path and your natural/third or even both and if T tries to force the third he is getting his ball in danger imo.
I expect plays like zero to be kinda popular on this map...will see
I hope T gets used to the short air distance...don't need Battle royale 2.0
ok I agree too easy to take might be an overstatement on second thought...I will erase that but I don't feel it is hard to take at all...especially since you can reinforce very quickly
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hey swanized, ever heard of fast vessels? That will solve the 12 pool 2 hatch muta problem, assuming the T has competent micro to deal with Z before the first irradiate.
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Canada2480 Posts
hey swanized, ever heard of fast vessels? That will solve the 12 pool 2 hatch muta problem, assuming the T has competent micro to deal with Z before the first irradiate.
I would be very surprised if fast vessel can get a vessel + irradiate in 5:30
the fastest possible way to get it is to rax-------factory-------starport-----science facility-------irradiate.
that sounds like more then 5 minutes
quoting from liquipedia here
1 Rax - If the Terran player only has 1 Rax, then he won't have that many Marines. 1 Rax means that the Terran is going for a rush to Science Vessels to stop the Mutalisk harass. However, this build has gone out of style due to both the general improvement of Mutalisk control from Zerg, which leads to the Vessel possibly getting sniped with little to no damage done to the Mutalisks.
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wow awesome post, thanks
i dont think the map is as imba as the stats show, a lot of these games seem to just be the terran failing or the zerg playing really good (action vs forgg, zero vs really). hopfully terrans will figure out how to defend vs 2 hatch better though. maybe when flash plays on it he'll show them how.
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omg what a fantastic post!!
but the map is not that imba i think.... defending 2 hatch is probably the key for terrans..
and also the 3rd expo for zerg isn't than easy to take
anyway nice article mate!
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9 games is a really small sample size and that's not exactly the most stellar set of terran players; the map might be Z>T but not to the extent that 1-8 makes it looks like
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Canada2480 Posts
I agree with you 3 above and just edited something expressing that feeling.
I am wondering if I should make a real Battle report for Great vs Sea because great's strat was totally kickass...anyone really interested in reading that?
Edit: OH WOW my post is in "on the spotlight" !!!!! woohoo. thanks to the TL.net team for that!!!
next objective: TLFE
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My take on this is that its not just the short rush distances, but rather, a combination of specific traits. That's what usually makes a map favored to X race.
For terrans, the fact that there is a short air distance between the bases means that builds such as 2 hatch muta from the zerg are highly likely. However, because there is a short rush distance as well, ling all ins also are considered viable as well, and its pretty hard for the terran to guess what the zerg is doing, since scouting after the initial scv scout can be denied easily. This somewhat explains the losses when it comes to early-game strats such as 2 hatch muta or ling all-in.
As for the losses in later game, i think that it comes down to the design of the rush/push paths. Sure, there are 3 rush/push paths, but that means that there are 3 different angles that a zerg army can attack the terran army. When it comes to battles in ZvT, the zerg would prefer to battle in an area where the terran can be flanked, and that is what the three rush/push paths allow the zerg to do, making it difficult for the terran to directly engage a zerg army.
As far as this map goes from an economic standpoint, a zerg can take his 3rd gas and not be as worried about defending it than if he were to take his 3rd base on a map such as fighting spirit, as it is much closer to the nat, and the zerg doesn't need to move his army a great deal to defend. (plus he has a 4th base right in between).
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On July 11 2010 07:28 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +hey swanized, ever heard of fast vessels? That will solve the 12 pool 2 hatch muta problem, assuming the T has competent micro to deal with Z before the first irradiate. I would be very surprised if fast vessel can get a vessel + irradiate in 5:30 the fastest possible way to get it is to rax-------factory-------starport-----science facility-------irradiate. that sounds like more then 5 minutes quoting from liquipedia here Show nested quote +1 Rax - If the Terran player only has 1 Rax, then he won't have that many Marines. 1 Rax means that the Terran is going for a rush to Science Vessels to stop the Mutalisk harass. However, this build has gone out of style due to both the general improvement of Mutalisk control from Zerg, which leads to the Vessel possibly getting sniped with little to no damage done to the Mutalisks.
5:30? What are you talking about? Liquipedia says that for 12 pool 2 hatch muta, the mutas pop at 6:00. That means that, getting them stacked and joined near the T's main would probably be around 6:10. Also, by fast vessel I don't mean "fastest possible vessel." And even if I did, what's your point? I never said that it would take less than 5 minutes to get that vessel out; that's completely ridiculous. And posting your liquipedia-quoted "rax-factory-starport-sci fac-irradiate" doesnt strengthen your case either. The rax finishes before the pool, the factory will finish before lair, and I'm pretty sure the starport will naturally finish before spire. The sci fac should then finish before the mutas have arrived at around 6:10. And it's not like researching irradiate and building a science vessel can't be done at the same time, so the vessel should pop and it should build up enough energy for an irradiate within 30 seconds-1 minute of the beginning of the muta harass. Like I said, if the T has competent micro, he should be able to deal with the mutas in time for the first irradiate (at least barely hanging on). Jaedong simply dominated ssak; if that was Hwasin, Flash, Leta, etc., I don't think Jaedong could've ended it as early as he did with ssak.
Also, the number of mutalisks that the zerg brings out at the first timing for the muta harass varies. If the T knows that Dreamliner is a popular and viable map for 12 pool-2 hatch muta, which he certainly should, then he might put on some early pressure. Make the Z burn some minerals/drones/larvae (the larvae part is the most important, for it prevents drone whoring) on lings/sunkens. If the T thinks up some sort of cute or smart early aggressive play, it can delay or weaken the muta timing. Now, in the above paragraph, I mentioned a pretty quick case of getting science vessels. The more standard build would be 1 rax-FE. With this sort of build, if you go for vessels before tanks, then I still can't see the Z being able to harass for more than a minute before the first vessel pops out (and remember, it's not like the Z is actually harassing the whole time; the mutas often fly the safe paths between the natural and the main to change their route of attack). When this vessel pops, it makes the Z's harass more hesitant unless there is some sort of muta all-in. Furthermore, defending the 12 pool-2 hatch muta can't be impossibly hard with 1 rax-FE because of plenty of mins for turrets, raxes, and therefore greater marine and turret count for more defense.
Finally, 1 rax-FE is a viable build. It's covered on liquipedia that, after defending the initial muta harass, a timing opens up with tank/mnm/vessel to make the first push against the Z when the Z goes 12 pool-2 hatch muta. And consider maps like Python. In the cases where the Z is close positions with T (which is 1/3 of the time), it's not like Z had easy victories with 12 pool-2 hatch muta. I don't remember people screaming Python imba, and in fact Python is one of those classic maps, sometimes called the next version of Lost Temple. In Python, the air distance is even shorter than that of Dreamliner, so obviously T found a way to deal with the 12 pool-2 hatch muta builds (whether it be fast vessels, standard 1 rax-FE with vessel first, standard 1 rax-FE with tank-vessel-mnm timing push after defending the initial harass, early e-bay and turrets into early mnm upgrades, doing that cute sort of early pressure like I suggested to mess with the build execution [forcing the Z to make adaptations such as lings instead of drones, sunkens instead of drones, and less overall minerals], etc.). My point to the OP was that I think some sort of fast vessel or 1 rax-FE with vessel first build would be a fair match for this dreaded 12 pool-2 hatch muta build on Dreamliner. I don't know of any cases in the 9 TvZ games that were played on this map where the T did this; correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: Whoa my post is a big block of text; I'll make sure to add blank lines between each paragraph next time.
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Canada2480 Posts
5:30? What are you talking about? Liquipedia says that for 12 pool 2 hatch muta, the mutas pop at 6:00. That means that, getting them stacked and joined near the T's main would probably be around 6:10. Also, by fast vessel I don't mean "fastest possible vessel." And even if I did, what's your point? I never said that it would take less than 5 minutes to get that vessel out; that's completely ridiculous. And posting your liquipedia-quoted "rax-factory-starport-sci fac-irradiate" doesnt strengthen your case either. The rax finishes before the pool, the factory will finish before lair, and I'm pretty sure the starport will naturally finish before spire. The sci fac should then finish before the mutas have arrived at around 6:10. And it's not like researching irradiate and building a science vessel can't be done at the same time, so the vessel should pop and it should build up enough energy for an irradiate within 30 seconds-1 minute of the beginning of the muta harass. Like I said, if the T has competent micro, he should be able to deal with the mutas in time for the first irradiate (at least barely hanging on). Jaedong simply dominated ssak; if that was Hwasin, Flash, Leta, etc., I don't think Jaedong could've ended it as early as he did with ssak.
Also, the number of mutalisks that the zerg brings out at the first timing for the muta harass varies. If the T knows that Dreamliner is a popular and viable map for 12 pool-2 hatch muta, which he certainly should, then he might put on some early pressure. Make the Z burn some minerals/drones/larvae (the larvae part is the most important, for it prevents drone whoring) on lings/sunkens. If the T thinks up some sort of cute or smart early aggressive play, it can delay or weaken the muta timing. Now, in the above paragraph, I mentioned a pretty quick case of getting science vessels. The more standard build would be 1 rax-FE. With this sort of build, if you go for vessels before tanks, then I still can't see the Z being able to harass for more than a minute before the first vessel pops out (and remember, it's not like the Z is actually harassing the whole time; the mutas often fly the safe paths between the natural and the main to change their route of attack). When this vessel pops, it makes the Z's harass more hesitant unless there is some sort of muta all-in. Furthermore, defending the 12 pool-2 hatch muta can't be impossibly hard with 1 rax-FE because of plenty of mins for turrets, raxes, and therefore greater marine and turret count for more defense.
Finally, 1 rax-FE is a viable build. It's covered on liquipedia that, after defending the initial muta harass, a timing opens up with tank/mnm/vessel to make the first push against the Z when the Z goes 12 pool-2 hatch muta. And consider maps like Python. In the cases where the Z is close positions with T (which is 1/3 of the time), it's not like Z had easy victories with 12 pool-2 hatch muta. I don't remember people screaming Python imba, and in fact Python is one of those classic maps, sometimes called the next version of Lost Temple. In Python, the air distance is even shorter than that of Dreamliner, so obviously T found a way to deal with the 12 pool-2 hatch muta builds (whether it be fast vessels, standard 1 rax-FE with vessel first, standard 1 rax-FE with tank-vessel-mnm timing push after defending the initial harass, early e-bay and turrets into early mnm upgrades, doing that cute sort of early pressure like I suggested to mess with the build execution [forcing the Z to make adaptations such as lings instead of drones, sunkens instead of drones, and less overall minerals], etc.). My point to the OP was that I think some sort of fast vessel or 1 rax-FE with vessel first build would be a fair match for this dreaded 12 pool-2 hatch muta build on Dreamliner. I don't know of any cases in the 9 TvZ games that were played on this map where the T did this; correct me if I'm wrong.
EDIT: Whoa my post is a big block of text; I'll make sure to add blank lines between each paragraph next time.
ok even if muta harass comes at 6:00 I don't believe you will have the vessel out in time. my point with fastest possible vessel(which is clearly awfull we agree on that) was that even with fastest possible vessel the vessel probably was late or right on time...considering you need MnM and am expansion I don't see this out in time... I am not questionning fast vessel against 3 hatch muta but against 12 pool 2 hatch muta I highly doubt this vessel will be out in time.
I don't recall saying anywhere that 1 rax-FE is unviable ? I only quoted that thing from wikipedia that said that STAYING on 1 rax had fallen out of use. doing the vessel rush and building turrets unfortunately will cut into your marine count a lot.
I don't recall saying that T will never find a way to block 12 pool 2 hatch muta either I only said I did not think vessel rush is the right thing against this one... it is fine to do it against 3 hatch muta of course.
(btw indeed starport finishes before spire no doubt about that..but will the science facility finish before the mutas pop? how long will you have to deal with muta harass with insufficient defenses untill irradiate finishes? will Z get lucky and split it in no time? I simply don't think vessel rush is the solution...but I think T will eventually find a way to beat 12 pool 2 hatch muta. I think you misunderstood my post a bit)
(a small note on python: actually 12 pool 2 hatch mutas was developped by zero a few months ago I believe so no progamer played with this build on python therefore it is kinda hard to tell if python would be imba with this build...I personally think like you that T would find some way to adapt but still)
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of course leta is smart *snickers*
great analysis, pretty interesting read
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
Good post. Note also that the perception of imbalance can often be enough to cause imbalance on a map. If a player is forced to play on a map that they don't believe they can win on, often they'll play irregularly, or poorly as a result.
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the close air distance between mains just screams for 2 hatch mutas in tvz.
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That was a good read, it should help me determine results on this map.
Never really looked at the details like this. Good post.
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On July 11 2010 08:17 ImaginationStation wrote:
gigantic post about the fast vessel build and about how standard TvZ solves the problem
1. the fast vessel build is miserably bad vs 2 hatch muta, especially the extra fast 2 hatch muta provided by 12 pool gas. You don't produce nearly enough marines to hold them off.
2. the second half of your post seems to be suggesting that the most standard TvZ build is the solution to the perceived problem. I think you are severely understimating how good 2 hatch muta is.
The part about putting pressure on the zerg and forcing them to spend money on defense is textbook TvZ. that doesn't change anything about how to fight 2 hatch muta on this map.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Nice write-up, I'm really looking forward to seeing another TvZ on Dreamliner now.
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Canada2480 Posts
I believe that Terrans will probably find a way around it...but since this is OSL and not proleague they are under time pressure to do so...it's no good managing to get past the 10 minute mark if only 1 or 2 terrans make it in the RO8 because of dreamliner. I think it will be very interesting to see how fast Terrans can solve this map. proleague season being almost over will help the players whom team is no longer in the play-offs solve it I think.
wow awesome post, thanks
i dont think the map is as imba as the stats show, a lot of these games seem to just be the terran failing or the zerg playing really good (action vs forgg, zero vs really). hopfully terrans will figure out how to defend vs 2 hatch better though. maybe when flash plays on it he'll show them how.
omg what a fantastic post!!
but the map is not that imba i think.... defending 2 hatch is probably the key for terrans..
and also the 3rd expo for zerg isn't than easy to take
anyway nice article mate!
That was a good read, it should help me determine results on this map.
Never really looked at the details like this. Good post.
Nice write-up, I'm really looking forward to seeing another TvZ on Dreamliner now.
thanks for all the positive feedback guys... I really appreciate that
(especially since it took me about 6 hours to write that... ZerO vs  Really was so damn long)
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Am I the only one that sees the giant phallus on this map?
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Nice analysis. Slightly mystified that you didn't mention the positional imbalance for the 6 v 3 (6's mineral line is not against a map edge while 3's is). Tbh it probably doesn't matter since T is going to secure that natural, which in turn helps defend that mineral line (could even make the argument that fact makes it a better position), just felt it was noteworthy nonetheless.
Anyway, I have been a little surprised to not see mech, Valkonic, or Valk-mech. Leta's Wraiths were certainly a treat, but I was expecting the Terran response to this map might be more like it was with Triathlon.
The first TvZ on Triathlon (well, first televised one that I know of) was Baby v Jaedong, and Baby went 2-Port Wraiths into mech. His response on why he used the build? He figured Terran had to do something special to win on that map. I can't remember how Hiya won his game and there's no VOD, but the third TvZ was Sea versus Kwanro. There we see a plan for Valkonic, because it allows Sea to secure the back expo despite Mutas; ofc, this plan falls to pieces as Kwanro shifts to a Lurker break and I think everything beyond that is pure improv. Then we have Flash v Action, where Flash goes Valk-mech, managing to safeguard the back expansion while building a sizable force of Gols to pressure Action's natural and force Sunkens, and meanwhile clearing the way for Flash to take his other natural (and then a fourth courtesy of the natural pushing path of mech). The first four games on Triathlon all resulted in T wins, and at least three of those four involved non-standard play- the map presented a challenge and valiant Terrans rose to the occasion.
Now, Triathlon and Dreamliner are very different maps, but the response to Triathlon does show that Terrans are willing to rise to the occasion (not saying Triathlon is imba for Z, simply that Terrans felt the need to go outside the box to win on it). What's also interesting is that three of those Terrans have played TvZ on Dreamliner and the results are disappointing. Sea v Great, as swanized pointed out, is tough to criticize because Great went outside the box and won because (or in spite? Great is on fire right now and could definitely beat Sea "straight-up") of that, but at the same time, Sea didn't (and it perhaps did cost him). Baby and Hiya... we don't quite know what they might have done because they ended their games shortly, but perhaps those even tell us something. (I would definitely say that both were against opponents they "should beat"). Was Baby's zeal to Bunker rush driven by poor decision-making, or a statement about his feeling towards the map? But at the same time, we did get to see Leta's great game. And yet, to continue on just a bit more, we then saw Baby, the man that successfully executed a 2-Port Wraith opening on Triathlon against the most fearsome Zerg in StarCraft right now, resort to cheese- is Leta's performance not repeatable? Is it the only way to win and does it require catching the Zerg off-guard or significantly outplaying them? Certainly, there are those that will point out the disastrous end of Kwanro's attempted break (you'd think he would have learned after trying it against Sea  ) and ask what could have been had Kwanro not attempted such, although in Kwanro's defense, few in the stream when he originally made the decision saw fit to complain until after it failed.
But, really awesome thread with quite an interesting premise, one that will stick with me as I continue to watch this OSL. Tbh, I am quite hoping that Fantasy gets a crack at TvZ on this map since, well, he's Fantasy, dur. If there is an active Terran that can pull something funky and workable like Leta did, it's Fantasy (or Flash, who surprised me twice on Triathlon with his TvZs and who has just been full of surprises these past few months; Valkonic with nigh perfect execution on Odd-Eye 2 against Jaedong was notable xD). But there's always the fear that the short rush distance restricts how much Terrans can look to tech for a solution (as well, even for bio, that lower path is brutal for pushing out as SkyHigh did as it allows the M&M to be separated from the natural far easier than usual, and Ssak's odd Super Wall attempt conveys an uneasiness in Terrans about that rush distance).
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Nice read. But we have so few Z > T maps and we haven't seen any ridiculous losses yet so I don't really mind this map.
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Canada2480 Posts
Nice analysis. Slightly mystified that you didn't mention the positional imbalance for the 6 v 3 (6's mineral line is not against a map edge while 3's is). Tbh it probably doesn't matter since T is going to secure that natural, which in turn helps defend that mineral line (could even make the argument that fact makes it a better position), just felt it was noteworthy nonetheless.
woops...totally forgot about that 
anyways in my opinion it does not matter all that much since 3 is harder to harass because it's up against the edge of the map but 6 is easier to turret up since you can turret your natural and you the back of that min line at the same time
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Canada2480 Posts
Certainly, there are those that will point out the disastrous end of Kwanro's attempted break (you'd think he would have learned after trying it against Sea ) and ask what could have been had Kwanro not attempted such, although in Kwanro's defense, few in the stream when he originally made the decision saw fit to complain until after it failed.
I don't think going for the break was as bad of a decision then most people make it sound like.
yeah it failed but it is easy to criticize afterwards...truth is that bust had(in my opinion) decent chances of success but it failed.
it makes me think of the saints on-side kick during the superbowl. Now this was a genius move but had it failed it would have been one of the most retarded moves of superbowl history
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Props on analyzing the most defining map this OSL Season!
i unfortunately have been too busy to watch most of the games so i was anticipating a person doing an in-depth analysis and i am blown away by the writeup and some of the responses 
a couple of points:
Zerg definitely seems to have the advantage, or all the Terran players are just playing like that. However, 2 games were unscouted all-ins which doesn't count for much i could definitely see a proxy rax a bit behind/outside the natural and if it was unscouted the Terran would win duh 
2 games the Zerg player just played so much better (ZerO and great) and who the f*ck is Ssak to take on Jaedong
that leaves us with only a few games where Zerg players abused the short air distance to win, where they might not have won playing a normal game
however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read:Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)
Honestly in my opinion BaBy could have won his game (awesome dropship play anyone?) and the caliber of Zergs compared to Terrans has definitely been a bit imba, however i belive that if the terrans stop playing like they have no chance (maybe b/c the easy third gas i dunno...) and took some initiative they could win (Leta did...)
just for speculation...
could good turrets +mech work? tanks look like they work pretty well on this map and it denies any Ultra rush a zerg might try
bio looks like it could be huge (especially since some expos look like they can be cliffed?) and vessels which are always useful, in this map have a lot more potential because in the middle lane they barely have to move to look at the other 2 lanes and snipe defilers (that last point is really up in the air it just made sense to me )
and the king of kings, Dropship Play should lay some serious hurt on the Zerg, especially if its before Dark Swarm (ZerO's late defilers could have really hurt him if he wasn't playing an uninspiring Really)
Why did BaBy act so stupid? why!?
In conclusion expect the Ro16 to have some sweet games on this map
i am not too worried about the easy 12pool gas-->2hatch muta because the players will work it into the metagame and it will shift (or we will see a crapload of 2port wraiths)
oh and unscouted rushes hopefully won't work
anyhow great analysis of the map and a big thank you for covering all the  dreamliner games in one thread, the ZerO - Really game was awesomeness
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Mystlord
United States10264 Posts
I don't think you can call this map imbalanced at all. We've seen a lot of Zerg players pick up their game recently, and Terrans haven't gone back to the style Flash pioneered on Match Point to counter the 2 Hatch goodness. 2 Port wraith is another solid option, but we haven't seen too many games with that either.
Once Terran grabs that third base and starts pumping Tanks, it'll be real hard for Zerg to break that without a concentrated push. Impossible to tell at this point in my opinion.
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United States33360 Posts
small sample size + many of the games had a better ZvT player = wait 15 more games (or more)
also, IIRC, the rush distance on this map is 30 seconds, which is very standard.
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 12 2010 06:31 Waxangel wrote:
small sample size + many of the games had a better ZvT player = wait 15 more games (or more)
also, IIRC, the rush distance on this map is 30 seconds, which is very standard.
hmm yeah but waiting around 15 more TvZ on dreamliner leads to... semi-finals? Finals? next OSL?
thought it would be nice to have an analysis of why Terrans are losing so far before the finals...
On July 12 2010 03:48 Mystlord wrote:
I don't think you can call this map imbalanced at all. We've seen a lot of Zerg players pick up their game recently, and Terrans haven't gone back to the style Flash pioneered on Match Point to counter the 2 Hatch goodness. 2 Port wraith is another solid option, but we haven't seen too many games with that either.
Once Terran grabs that third base and starts pumping Tanks, it'll be real hard for Zerg to break that without a concentrated push. Impossible to tell at this point in my opinion.
while what you say is true I called it imbalanced so far because Terrans SERIOUSLY did not have a clue about what to do about that muta harass. As I stated in the OP when Terrans manage to fend it off I still feel it will be zerg favored but not imbalanced
yeah Tank push might be strong but flanking once Terran gets into area A is somewhat easy so it might not be as strong as you think...still powerful though
On July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote:Props on analyzing the most defining map this OSL Season! i unfortunately have been too busy to watch most of the games so i was anticipating a person doing an in-depth analysis and i am blown away by the writeup and some of the responses a couple of points: Zerg definitely seems to have the advantage, or all the Terran players are just playing like that. However, 2 games were unscouted all-ins which doesn't count for much i could definitely see a proxy rax a bit behind/outside the natural and if it was unscouted the Terran would win duh 2 games the Zerg player just played so much better ( ZerO and great) and who the f*ck is Ssak to take on Jaedongthat leaves us with only a few games where Zerg players abused the short air distance to win, where they might not have won playing a normal game however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read: Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)
Thanks :p
now as I said it's not like the game where the air distance was abused where really numerous but rather that when Z did abuse it... Terrans did not have a clue what to do about it
On July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote:and the king of kings, Dropship Play should lay some serious hurt on the Zerg, especially if its before Dark Swarm ( ZerO's late defilers could have really hurt him if he wasn't playing an uninspiring Really) Why did BaBy act so stupid? why!?
maybe dropship play might hurt but Zero really practiced this a lot in practice game and if we look at the mini-map
![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/2vbr09i.jpg)
we can see (circled in red) that ZerO has overlords there so he has a good reaction time considering it takes time to Actually get from the overlords to the zerg base and to unload the MnM... you can also see that ZerO's rally  Point(circled in Green) is quite close to his base so I'm not sure if a drop would be THAT devastating
my guess is that ZerO encountered that a lot in practice and that's how he thought he could deal with it...ideally you want to have defilers to deal with it of course but I think ZerO could do it without too much damage
On July 12 2010 03:05 BAdGer_ wrote:however the apparent ease of 12pool gas-->2hatch muta/allin could end up working against the Zerg if in the Ro16 someone (read: Flash) finds a really nice counter that destroys them (basically i want to see either ZerO EffOrt or Jaedong play a Bo5 against Flash to see some sick games)
while that is true what if the guy who solves that problem plays last? how many Terrans will survive Dreamliner? I really hope that we don't get another ZvZ final.
I absolutely can't wait for the ro16
Edit: took me 209 posts to figure out how to incorporate Name of user and Date... fail
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There have been 9 zvt's. I think it's a little premature to start screaming about map imbalance. Zerg found a strategy that works, now terran needs to find a way around it.
Practice time may have something to do with it. Right now all the proleague matches are taking center stage. While we, as spectators, love to watch the individual leagues, the team proleague seems to be where progamer attention focuses.
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[B] ![[image loading]](http://i28.tinypic.com/155qqhe.jpg)
The middle push distance looks like it gives just as much space if not more than the green strong push distance.
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Canada2480 Posts
The middle push distance looks like it gives just as much space if not more than the green strong push distance.
you did not read OP closely enough ^^
the point of the green push distance is to give an high ground advantage to the pusher not to get more space
On July 12 2010 12:06 Servius_Fulvius wrote:
There have been 9 zvt's. I think it's a little premature to start screaming about map imbalance. Zerg found a strategy that works, now terran needs to find a way around it.
Practice time may have something to do with it. Right now all the proleague matches are taking center stage. While we, as spectators, love to watch the individual leagues, the team proleague seems to be where progamer attention focuses.
my answer:
On July 12 2010 08:49 swanized wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2010 06:31 Waxangel wrote:
small sample size + many of the games had a better ZvT player = wait 15 more games (or more)
hmm yeah but waiting around 15 more TvZ on dreamliner leads to... semi-finals? Finals? next OSL? thought it would be nice to have an analysis of why Terrans are losing so far before the finals...
pay attention to the so far...I have already stated in the comments that while I think Terrans will find a way around the short air distance and when this happens I think it will be a zerg favored map nonetheless but not unplayable for Terrans and I think it will give awesome games. (I even said it in OP)
edit:I edited OP so as to say that I agree that 9 games is a pretty small sample.
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Really good work. Very insightful analysis. I like how you walked us through every single replay. Very thorough!
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It may be the case that Terran players find an answer. Protoss players also need an answer. Ultimately the problem lies in that the map was designed a little too heavily with shape in mind rather than balance. It's too easy for Zerg to harrass effectively with mutas. It's too easy for Zerg to secure and defend 5 bases, 4 with gas. That critical 4th gas makes it very hard to stop Zerg's late game.
A possibility that may work for fixing balance would be to remove the gas from the natural. This would weaken Zerg's early game, although I'm inclined to think it will also weaken Protoss's early game against Zerg because Zerg can easily double expand with the second expansion at a gas base, thus securing 2 gas bases anyway, while the Protoss will be stuck on one. I think TvP balance would actually remain okay.
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Great article! This map might be z>t, but hell it's about time!
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 12 2010 20:22 Elroi wrote:
Great article! This map might be z>t, but hell it's about time!
haha I agree... at least Terrans still have triathlon at the MSL
On July 12 2010 17:21 Mortality wrote:
It may be the case that Terran players find an answer. Protoss players also need an answer. Ultimately the problem lies in that the map was designed a little too heavily with shape in mind rather than balance. It's too easy for Zerg to harrass effectively with mutas. It's too easy for Zerg to secure and defend 5 bases, 4 with gas. That critical 4th gas makes it very hard to stop Zerg's late game.
A possibility that may work for fixing balance would be to remove the gas from the natural. This would weaken Zerg's early game, although I'm inclined to think it will also weaken Protoss's early game against Zerg because Zerg can easily double expand with the second expansion at a gas base, thus securing 2 gas bases anyway, while the Protoss will be stuck on one. I think TvP balance would actually remain okay.
Hmm from what I remember maps with a mineral only natural are very Terran favored
On July 12 2010 14:53 Saracen wrote:
Really good work. Very insightful analysis. I like how you walked us through every single replay. Very thorough!
On July 12 2010 19:15 iNdo-Man wrote:
cool write up, i enjoyed
thanks !!, nice to hear from staff member.
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Your first conclusion seems a bit disconnected from the rest of the article. What I got from reading this was that despite the lopsided statistics, the map isn't so bad. You took every game and tried to rationalize that the games were lost on either mistakes or brilliant zerg play, not on imbalances. The majority of games, you described it as a) the zerg in this game was just plain awesome and deserved to win b) zerg all-ins c) terran makes mistake and pays for it
In the games where imbalance may have played a role, you didn't delve into how the map affected the game. So when I read your post, I came to the opposite conclusion as your conclusion #1. Going game-by-game, and seeing how you described it:
Game 1 - Great was awesome and deserved to win
Game 2 - Muta harrass wins. May be map imbalance, but no mention of it
Game 3 - Leta had a nice idea and won
Game 4 - Zero was awesome and deserved to win
Game 5 - All-in, and you specifically stated you don't think it was map imbalance
Game 6 - ditto
Game 7 - Same as game 2, but you even mention what Skyhigh could have done better
Game 8 - Muta harrass wins. No mention of map imbalance. And of course, it's Jaedong
Game 9 - Baby sucked and shouldn't have won that anyway
None of this supports your first conclusion
You mention the flying distances a bit, and that may have played a factor in how effective mutas were in Games 2, 7, 8, and if you came to that conclusion watching those games, it wasn't really talked about in your reports. Anyone can lose to muta harrass on any map, so conclusion #1 did not even cross my mind
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Canada2480 Posts
While I totally agree I should have worded my conclusions better I pointed out later in the comments that the games that were lost because of that were not numerous... 1/3.
Problem is that I ususally don't see progamers do 12 pool 2 hatch muta 1 game out of 3...
also when they did the Terran seriously did not have a clue what to do about it... Skyhigh had a good idea but even had he executed it better I doubt it would had turned out okay for him anyways. I eagerly await the RO16 to see what Terrans can do about it. Now I decided to leave most of the imbalance talk for the conclusion and focus mostly on the games in my Battle report... sorry if that was confusing.
EDIT: If I remember Hydra was going for 12 pool against BaBY so it actually is 4/9
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United States2186 Posts
Pros going 12 pool lair frequently, which by the way is completely different than 2 hatch and should be clearly differentiated, is not necessarily a sign of imbalance. On Match Point, especially when the Terran spawns at 7, 12 pool lair is by far the best opening because of how impossibly hard defending against mutas is there. But on MP Zerg must get some kind of early-mid game advantage because if they don't, they are in trouble in a late game where the map turns against them. The factors that make it Zerg favored early-mid game and Terran favored late game overall make the map quite balanced (and interesting).
I only watched a few of the games and haven't really looked at it closely, but at first glance Dreamliner offers both races possibilities. The short aerial distance is obviously good for mutas and 2 port wraith, which might actually not be a non-gimmicky choice for the first time. However, the terrain itself does not lend to harass (like Match Point or El Nino) and should the early attack not inflict too much damage, it will be rather easy to get a strong defensive setup.
The aerial distance and main setup factors more in the effectiveness of drops for both races. Zergs will have to use many scourge to really cover their very vulnerable main or sunken much more than they'd like, and Terrans will have to make a few dozen turrets if they want any kind of safety lategame.
The ability for the Terran to blockade the ramp above the natural and simultaneously attack the Zerg 3rd gas (pre-defiler) is probably their strongest asset. Zergs therefore cannot just sit back and wait for the Terran army to park in front of their natural and then kill it like normal. They must actively maneuver and prevent the Terran from reaching this critical spot and reinforcing it. The secure mineral only gives the Zergs fighting chances to do this, so it will be interesting to see how both sides try to play around this key dynamic. Normally on most maps (no min only, far away 3rd gas), if the Terran tries to go for the Zerg 3rd the Zerg can counterattack the natural and have a very favorable trade. On Dreamliner that isn't quite as easy given the Terran ability to simultaneously threaten both bases.
And Zero's game was a pretty mediocre strategy that Really simply reacted very poorly to (possibly didn't scout well enough). He had no business trying to do anything but take 4 bases quickly and get a powerful vessel/tank defense going. However, it might well be that Zergs cannot play a normal Savior opening on this map due to the point above.
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Canada2480 Posts
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Lol i like how this map has ONLY been played TvZ so far. You'd think it'd be easy choice to send out ZvZ since its such a short flying distance
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It's an OSL map... it's not used in Proleague. The players and teams don't have a choice. And there has been ZvP and TvP games on it... this thread was created for the purpose of discussing only ZvT.
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oh my god. amazing amazing writeup and analysis .
but 2 port wraiths WOULD be the only way to counter the 2 hatch mutal no?
early ebay or even a quick 2 rax.
conventional 1 rax expand would be difficult. (well near impossible as can be seen)
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very interesting analysis
great job
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 13 2010 16:29 serenidite wrote:
oh my god. amazing amazing writeup and analysis .
but 2 port wraiths WOULD be the only way to counter the 2 hatch mutal no?
early ebay or even a quick 2 rax.
conventional 1 rax expand would be difficult. (well near impossible as can be seen)
maybe it is,
2rax expand might work too.
we have to wait until the ro16 to find out T_T
maybe terrans will find a way to make 1 rax expand work.
problem with 2 rax expand is that if Z actually goes lurkers or 3 hatch muta you are not as good then if you went 1 rax expand.
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if a player gets ahead their 3rd and 4th become untouchable
zerg gets ahead with muta every time, it's almost impossible for them not to given the surface area that terran has to defend + them having to defend their front from speedlings + the natural, top natural especially, being really hard to defend in general
10/12 rax acad allin and bring 7 workers
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Canada2480 Posts
10/12 rax acad allin and bring 7 workers
I'm sure Zergs won't expect it after 3 games <_<.
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Flanking the terran as zerg is a little too easy in this map imo, flank which pretty much is terran's death wish vs zerg.
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Game needs more battle royales imo :D
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United States17042 Posts
The rush distance isn't too bad - and the short air distance make it so that fending off the two hat muta is the most important thing.
I'm personally hoping, like ver mentioned, that this map plays out like matchpoint. It seems to me that the short air distance that makes 2 hat muta really really good would also make 2 port wraith (we might start seeing that as standard on this map) or drop play into midgame be very effective. I think that Z will be forced to use either 2 hat or 3 hat muta to secure an advantage, and then towards lategame, T should be able to abuse the mobility of the multiple pathways to put pressure on multiple expansions.
2 rax plays on this map could also be another answer to dealing with 2/3 hat muta, but it's really nowhere near as strong as 1 rax expand. The fantasy build might work out on this map, with the valk...although you would need to get lucky with that first dship and the vults. It would be a very strong percentage play, as the short air distance makes it very very difficult to defend with just golaiths. The T is stuck guessing how and when they're going to cut scv's to ensure that they have enough turrets and gols to defend properly. The only really good news for mech on this map is that the narrow bottom pathway provides a really short, narrow rush distance, and the main and nat arn't as good for muta as either blue storm or match point.
We'll see how it plays out though...
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We need a post like this for every map --> add to Liquipedia =p
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 14 2010 11:42 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
2 rax plays on this map could also be another answer to dealing with 2/3 hat muta, but it's really nowhere near as strong as 1 rax expand. The fantasy build might work out on this map, with the valk...although you would need to get lucky with that first dship and the vults. It would be a very strong percentage play, as the short air distance makes it very very difficult to defend with just golaiths. The T is stuck guessing how and when they're going to cut scv's to ensure that they have enough turrets and gols to defend properly. The only really good news for mech on this map is that the narrow bottom pathway provides a really short, narrow rush distance, and the main and nat arn't as good for muta as either blue storm or match point.
Terrans won't be too happy to have to 2 rax expand but if nothing else works...
Fantasy build might be powerful on this map, though the vults will need to do quite a bit of damage.
Indeed we'll see how it plays out... If it ends up blaanced it's gonna be a pretty damn awesome map.
On July 14 2010 16:32 Hautamaki wrote:
We need a post like this for every map --> add to Liquipedia =p
Haha, would need a pretty massive map analyzing team because just this was around 5-6 hours. so would need a lot of people to do it for all maps....
while I would like to see my post added to liquipedia I'd rather wait a bit to see if Terrans don't find a way to overcome 12 pool lair...thus making this obsolete.
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Why the hell were people suggesting vessel rush against 2 hatch muta. A build with 1 rax worth of marines to fight a muta rush that's intended to kill your army? Wtf, some people are just stupid. What you need vs 2 hatch is more marines not less.
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I have no idea who ssak is but those terrans all have pretty stellar TvZ.
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