[A] why is dreamliner THAT imbalanced ZvT

Try taking the "#!" off of the end of the youtube links.

hey swanized, ever heard of fast vessels? That will solve the 12 pool 2 hatch muta problem, assuming the T has competent micro to deal with Z before the first irradiate.

1 Rax - If the Terran player only has 1 Rax, then he won't have that many Marines. 1 Rax means that the Terran is going for a rush to Science Vessels to stop the Mutalisk harass. However, this build has gone out of style due to both the general improvement of Mutalisk control from Zerg, which leads to the Vessel possibly getting sniped with little to no damage done to the Mutalisks.

On July 11 2010 07:28 swanized wrote:


I would be very surprised if fast vessel can get a vessel + irradiate in 5:30

the fastest possible way to get it is to rax-------factory-------starport-----science facility-------irradiate.

that sounds like more then 5 minutes

quoting from liquipedia here

5:30? What are you talking about? Liquipedia says that for 12 pool 2 hatch muta, the mutas pop at 6:00. That means that, getting them stacked and joined near the T's main would probably be around 6:10. Also, by fast vessel I don't mean "fastest possible vessel." And even if I did, what's your point? I never said that it would take less than 5 minutes to get that vessel out; that's completely ridiculous. And posting your liquipedia-quoted "rax-factory-starport-sci fac-irradiate" doesnt strengthen your case either. The rax finishes before the pool, the factory will finish before lair, and I'm pretty sure the starport will naturally finish before spire. The sci fac should then finish before the mutas have arrived at around 6:10. And it's not like researching irradiate and building a science vessel can't be done at the same time, so the vessel should pop and it should build up enough energy for an irradiate within 30 seconds-1 minute of the beginning of the muta harass. Like I said, if the T has competent micro, he should be able to deal with the mutas in time for the first irradiate (at least barely hanging on). Jaedong simply dominated ssak; if that was Hwasin, Flash, Leta, etc., I don't think Jaedong could've ended it as early as he did with ssak.

Also, the number of mutalisks that the zerg brings out at the first timing for the muta harass varies. If the T knows that Dreamliner is a popular and viable map for 12 pool-2 hatch muta, which he certainly should, then he might put on some early pressure. Make the Z burn some minerals/drones/larvae (the larvae part is the most important, for it prevents drone whoring) on lings/sunkens. If the T thinks up some sort of cute or smart early aggressive play, it can delay or weaken the muta timing. Now, in the above paragraph, I mentioned a pretty quick case of getting science vessels. The more standard build would be 1 rax-FE. With this sort of build, if you go for vessels before tanks, then I still can't see the Z being able to harass for more than a minute before the first vessel pops out (and remember, it's not like the Z is actually harassing the whole time; the mutas often fly the safe paths between the natural and the main to change their route of attack). When this vessel pops, it makes the Z's harass more hesitant unless there is some sort of muta all-in. Furthermore, defending the 12 pool-2 hatch muta can't be impossibly hard with 1 rax-FE because of plenty of mins for turrets, raxes, and therefore greater marine and turret count for more defense.

Finally, 1 rax-FE is a viable build. It's covered on liquipedia that, after defending the initial muta harass, a timing opens up with tank/mnm/vessel to make the first push against the Z when the Z goes 12 pool-2 hatch muta. And consider maps like Python. In the cases where the Z is close positions with T (which is 1/3 of the time), it's not like Z had easy victories with 12 pool-2 hatch muta. I don't remember people screaming Python imba, and in fact Python is one of those classic maps, sometimes called the next version of Lost Temple. In Python, the air distance is even shorter than that of Dreamliner, so obviously T found a way to deal with the 12 pool-2 hatch muta builds (whether it be fast vessels, standard 1 rax-FE with vessel first, standard 1 rax-FE with tank-vessel-mnm timing push after defending the initial harass, early e-bay and turrets into early mnm upgrades, doing that cute sort of early pressure like I suggested to mess with the build execution [forcing the Z to make adaptations such as lings instead of drones, sunkens instead of drones, and less overall minerals], etc.). My point to the OP was that I think some sort of fast vessel or 1 rax-FE with vessel first build would be a fair match for this dreaded 12 pool-2 hatch muta build on Dreamliner. I don't know of any cases in the 9 TvZ games that were played on this map where the T did this; correct me if I'm wrong.

EDIT: Whoa my post is a big block of text; I'll make sure to add blank lines between each paragraph next time.