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Canada2480 Posts
On July 12 2010 20:22 Elroi wrote:
Great article! This map might be z>t, but hell it's about time!
haha I agree... at least Terrans still have triathlon at the MSL
On July 12 2010 17:21 Mortality wrote:
It may be the case that Terran players find an answer. Protoss players also need an answer. Ultimately the problem lies in that the map was designed a little too heavily with shape in mind rather than balance. It's too easy for Zerg to harrass effectively with mutas. It's too easy for Zerg to secure and defend 5 bases, 4 with gas. That critical 4th gas makes it very hard to stop Zerg's late game.
A possibility that may work for fixing balance would be to remove the gas from the natural. This would weaken Zerg's early game, although I'm inclined to think it will also weaken Protoss's early game against Zerg because Zerg can easily double expand with the second expansion at a gas base, thus securing 2 gas bases anyway, while the Protoss will be stuck on one. I think TvP balance would actually remain okay.
Hmm from what I remember maps with a mineral only natural are very Terran favored
On July 12 2010 14:53 Saracen wrote:
Really good work. Very insightful analysis. I like how you walked us through every single replay. Very thorough!
On July 12 2010 19:15 iNdo-Man wrote:
cool write up, i enjoyed
thanks !!, nice to hear from staff member.
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Your first conclusion seems a bit disconnected from the rest of the article. What I got from reading this was that despite the lopsided statistics, the map isn't so bad. You took every game and tried to rationalize that the games were lost on either mistakes or brilliant zerg play, not on imbalances. The majority of games, you described it as a) the zerg in this game was just plain awesome and deserved to win b) zerg all-ins c) terran makes mistake and pays for it
In the games where imbalance may have played a role, you didn't delve into how the map affected the game. So when I read your post, I came to the opposite conclusion as your conclusion #1. Going game-by-game, and seeing how you described it:
Game 1 - Great was awesome and deserved to win
Game 2 - Muta harrass wins. May be map imbalance, but no mention of it
Game 3 - Leta had a nice idea and won
Game 4 - Zero was awesome and deserved to win
Game 5 - All-in, and you specifically stated you don't think it was map imbalance
Game 6 - ditto
Game 7 - Same as game 2, but you even mention what Skyhigh could have done better
Game 8 - Muta harrass wins. No mention of map imbalance. And of course, it's Jaedong
Game 9 - Baby sucked and shouldn't have won that anyway
None of this supports your first conclusion
You mention the flying distances a bit, and that may have played a factor in how effective mutas were in Games 2, 7, 8, and if you came to that conclusion watching those games, it wasn't really talked about in your reports. Anyone can lose to muta harrass on any map, so conclusion #1 did not even cross my mind
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Canada2480 Posts
While I totally agree I should have worded my conclusions better I pointed out later in the comments that the games that were lost because of that were not numerous... 1/3.
Problem is that I ususally don't see progamers do 12 pool 2 hatch muta 1 game out of 3...
also when they did the Terran seriously did not have a clue what to do about it... Skyhigh had a good idea but even had he executed it better I doubt it would had turned out okay for him anyways. I eagerly await the RO16 to see what Terrans can do about it. Now I decided to leave most of the imbalance talk for the conclusion and focus mostly on the games in my Battle report... sorry if that was confusing.
EDIT: If I remember Hydra was going for 12 pool against BaBY so it actually is 4/9
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United States2186 Posts
Pros going 12 pool lair frequently, which by the way is completely different than 2 hatch and should be clearly differentiated, is not necessarily a sign of imbalance. On Match Point, especially when the Terran spawns at 7, 12 pool lair is by far the best opening because of how impossibly hard defending against mutas is there. But on MP Zerg must get some kind of early-mid game advantage because if they don't, they are in trouble in a late game where the map turns against them. The factors that make it Zerg favored early-mid game and Terran favored late game overall make the map quite balanced (and interesting).
I only watched a few of the games and haven't really looked at it closely, but at first glance Dreamliner offers both races possibilities. The short aerial distance is obviously good for mutas and 2 port wraith, which might actually not be a non-gimmicky choice for the first time. However, the terrain itself does not lend to harass (like Match Point or El Nino) and should the early attack not inflict too much damage, it will be rather easy to get a strong defensive setup.
The aerial distance and main setup factors more in the effectiveness of drops for both races. Zergs will have to use many scourge to really cover their very vulnerable main or sunken much more than they'd like, and Terrans will have to make a few dozen turrets if they want any kind of safety lategame.
The ability for the Terran to blockade the ramp above the natural and simultaneously attack the Zerg 3rd gas (pre-defiler) is probably their strongest asset. Zergs therefore cannot just sit back and wait for the Terran army to park in front of their natural and then kill it like normal. They must actively maneuver and prevent the Terran from reaching this critical spot and reinforcing it. The secure mineral only gives the Zergs fighting chances to do this, so it will be interesting to see how both sides try to play around this key dynamic. Normally on most maps (no min only, far away 3rd gas), if the Terran tries to go for the Zerg 3rd the Zerg can counterattack the natural and have a very favorable trade. On Dreamliner that isn't quite as easy given the Terran ability to simultaneously threaten both bases.
And Zero's game was a pretty mediocre strategy that Really simply reacted very poorly to (possibly didn't scout well enough). He had no business trying to do anything but take 4 bases quickly and get a powerful vessel/tank defense going. However, it might well be that Zergs cannot play a normal Savior opening on this map due to the point above.
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Canada2480 Posts
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Lol i like how this map has ONLY been played TvZ so far. You'd think it'd be easy choice to send out ZvZ since its such a short flying distance
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It's an OSL map... it's not used in Proleague. The players and teams don't have a choice. And there has been ZvP and TvP games on it... this thread was created for the purpose of discussing only ZvT.
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oh my god. amazing amazing writeup and analysis .
but 2 port wraiths WOULD be the only way to counter the 2 hatch mutal no?
early ebay or even a quick 2 rax.
conventional 1 rax expand would be difficult. (well near impossible as can be seen)
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very interesting analysis
great job
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 13 2010 16:29 serenidite wrote:
oh my god. amazing amazing writeup and analysis .
but 2 port wraiths WOULD be the only way to counter the 2 hatch mutal no?
early ebay or even a quick 2 rax.
conventional 1 rax expand would be difficult. (well near impossible as can be seen)
maybe it is,
2rax expand might work too.
we have to wait until the ro16 to find out T_T
maybe terrans will find a way to make 1 rax expand work.
problem with 2 rax expand is that if Z actually goes lurkers or 3 hatch muta you are not as good then if you went 1 rax expand.
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if a player gets ahead their 3rd and 4th become untouchable
zerg gets ahead with muta every time, it's almost impossible for them not to given the surface area that terran has to defend + them having to defend their front from speedlings + the natural, top natural especially, being really hard to defend in general
10/12 rax acad allin and bring 7 workers
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Canada2480 Posts
10/12 rax acad allin and bring 7 workers
I'm sure Zergs won't expect it after 3 games <_<.
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Flanking the terran as zerg is a little too easy in this map imo, flank which pretty much is terran's death wish vs zerg.
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Game needs more battle royales imo :D
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United States17042 Posts
The rush distance isn't too bad - and the short air distance make it so that fending off the two hat muta is the most important thing.
I'm personally hoping, like ver mentioned, that this map plays out like matchpoint. It seems to me that the short air distance that makes 2 hat muta really really good would also make 2 port wraith (we might start seeing that as standard on this map) or drop play into midgame be very effective. I think that Z will be forced to use either 2 hat or 3 hat muta to secure an advantage, and then towards lategame, T should be able to abuse the mobility of the multiple pathways to put pressure on multiple expansions.
2 rax plays on this map could also be another answer to dealing with 2/3 hat muta, but it's really nowhere near as strong as 1 rax expand. The fantasy build might work out on this map, with the valk...although you would need to get lucky with that first dship and the vults. It would be a very strong percentage play, as the short air distance makes it very very difficult to defend with just golaiths. The T is stuck guessing how and when they're going to cut scv's to ensure that they have enough turrets and gols to defend properly. The only really good news for mech on this map is that the narrow bottom pathway provides a really short, narrow rush distance, and the main and nat arn't as good for muta as either blue storm or match point.
We'll see how it plays out though...
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We need a post like this for every map --> add to Liquipedia =p
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Canada2480 Posts
On July 14 2010 11:42 GHOSTCLAW wrote:
2 rax plays on this map could also be another answer to dealing with 2/3 hat muta, but it's really nowhere near as strong as 1 rax expand. The fantasy build might work out on this map, with the valk...although you would need to get lucky with that first dship and the vults. It would be a very strong percentage play, as the short air distance makes it very very difficult to defend with just golaiths. The T is stuck guessing how and when they're going to cut scv's to ensure that they have enough turrets and gols to defend properly. The only really good news for mech on this map is that the narrow bottom pathway provides a really short, narrow rush distance, and the main and nat arn't as good for muta as either blue storm or match point.
Terrans won't be too happy to have to 2 rax expand but if nothing else works...
Fantasy build might be powerful on this map, though the vults will need to do quite a bit of damage.
Indeed we'll see how it plays out... If it ends up blaanced it's gonna be a pretty damn awesome map.
On July 14 2010 16:32 Hautamaki wrote:
We need a post like this for every map --> add to Liquipedia =p
Haha, would need a pretty massive map analyzing team because just this was around 5-6 hours. so would need a lot of people to do it for all maps....
while I would like to see my post added to liquipedia I'd rather wait a bit to see if Terrans don't find a way to overcome 12 pool lair...thus making this obsolete.
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Why the hell were people suggesting vessel rush against 2 hatch muta. A build with 1 rax worth of marines to fight a muta rush that's intended to kill your army? Wtf, some people are just stupid. What you need vs 2 hatch is more marines not less.
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I have no idea who ssak is but those terrans all have pretty stellar TvZ.
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EPT
