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PvT evolved very mechanically, especially when it comes to macro. trading army and replenishing becomes the key for protoss to win.
recent maps have made 3rd gas easy for terran to secure, unlike maps such as python where 3rd gas is pretty questionable.
the idea is, why can't protoss just slow down and do timing push against terran?
on two base, protoss can gain a very large mid-game army at the cost of late game economy. terran is advised that if protoss stays on 2 base, terran can easily turtle and wait till end game. but why can't protoss turn that around against terran?
timing push against terran when reaching for 3rd:
-observer comes out and can check factory count
- if one fact one shop after expansion, delay 3rd and use larger army to crush any expo attempt
- if two factory one shop, increase goon number against vultures
- if two factory 2 shop and more factory are added, prepare to defend against push
terran base can give away alot of information. instead of terran playing the "responsive" race, why can't protoss do that also? terran scouting can be easily denied with dragoon contain, and on maps with so many bases, terran has to spend precious scans or suicide vultures to check for protoss expos.
basically, siege tank turtle and slow push allows terran to get third, but a two base protoss can crush that easily. the trick is to not get third as early, even tho that seems crazy in modern pvt.
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"precious scans"? fucking maphacks
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On March 21 2010 11:39 nicoaldo wrote:
"precious scans"? fucking maphacks
Some people seem to have a hard time comprehending that scan takes energy. But I digress.
OP, interesting idea. But I'm not so sure that the toss could break a terran like this. On maps with the easy third like you're saying, terran doesn't really need to spread themselves too thin and filthily large army or not, a stationary terran is hard as hell to break. But I'm more than happy with being wrong so do you maybe have a replay of this being done?
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unfortunately, I am a terran. my idea of a protoss timing attack (not to be confused with all-in timing) is from my experience of having a easy time with 1 factory 2 armory builds. the only time i feel really vulnerable these days with turtle build is when im reaching for 3rd, but most toss generally just macro up themselves during that window. they often overestimate siege tank in small numbers and mines. they are actually a lot weaker on certain maps.
and scans off 2ccs are pretty precious, but once third is up i pretty much spam them when my vessels gets sniped.
edit:
I really really hate playing turtle terran. if anything im always always pushing people to use timing pushes or earlier attacks (they are more fun to commence anyway). but given the nature of maps these days, and the fact that protoss overestimate terran strength, i will always 3 base turtle if its a game i need to win.
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You are neglecting many things, such as maps like you stated which are easier to reach the third gas. Let's look @ fighting spirit, the bridge is hard to get across on a spread tank line with a few goliaths or turrets and some mines, and the third is a very narrow ramp. So basically, you are asking for P to all in, which is not really a smart choice, since T have vultures and scan to scout the map, they will realize, "Hmm I see more than normal gateway count and no third base, therefore, the P must be trying some bust". From there on, the terran will know that they can just sit back take their third and gather some upgrades while hard turtling.
Timing push from a P actually would take a lot more deception and a map that would enable it possible.
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I think the nature of how defensive terran can be (assuming they react to your scouting) makes them not very susceptible to toming attacks
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
i think this can be very viable in map with hard 3rd
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I'm thinking that it wouldn't work really well against a competent terran. The main priority of terran is to spot the timing of P's third base as well as gate count. If he sees that you haven't got a third and you have quite alot of gateways, he's going to be prepared.
You will be at a disadvantage because you just trapped yourself into having a weak late game economy while he can just position up nicely and setup for a third base himself and upgrades.
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I always wondered "Why is Terran the pushing race? Why can't it be Protoss or even Zerg? Why is Terran the race that contains the most and the best? Protoss can never contain against a Terran. Why does Terran have so much timing pushes when Protoss has no timing pushes against a Terran?"
Anyways.
1- if one fact one shop after expansion, delay 3rd and use larger army to crush any expo attempt
2- if two factory one shop, increase goon number against vultures
1. Probably works.
2. Depends what you're talking about. Does the Terran already have an expo or is he sitting on 1base? If he is sitting on 1base, this may not work because the Terran can bottleneck the choke with the few siege tanks he has. If he walled in, this will most certainly not work. If he expanded, may work.
why can't protoss just slow down and do timing push against terran?
Hardly any timing windows. With Terran giving a little turtle after they get their natural, they just sit on their ass, maybe push or grab their third and let their (imbalanced) Siege tanks and Mines hold the front. This is why PvT is a nuisance. While I am good at PvT, you cannot just attack whenever you want. You have a more mobile army than the terran. Abuse that. Recalls on expos work.
Seems I went a little offtrack, but more details are needed to support what you're trying to say.
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On March 22 2010 00:15 BallKicker wrote:
I always wondered "Why is Terran the pushing race? Why can't it be Protoss or even Zerg? Why is Terran the race that contains the most and the best? Protoss can never contain against a Terran. Why does Terran have so much timing pushes when Protoss has no timing pushes against a Terran?
It is kind of hard to contain a terran when they have siege tanks which outrange every unit in the game, you will just be throwing away units if you attempt a contain.
I think the reason why terran is the pushing race is because terran doesnt have map control that much (aside from vultures) and they are pretty immobile so they can only really do damage in the timing attacks i think, but im just speculating
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On March 22 2010 00:46 Sky.Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 00:15 BallKicker wrote:
I always wondered "Why is Terran the pushing race? Why can't it be Protoss or even Zerg? Why is Terran the race that contains the most and the best? Protoss can never contain against a Terran. Why does Terran have so much timing pushes when Protoss has no timing pushes against a Terran? It is kind of hard to contain a terran when they have siege tanks which outrange every unit in the game, you will just be throwing away units if you attempt a contain. I think the reason why terran is the pushing race is because terran doesnt have map control that much (aside from vultures) and they are pretty immobile so they can only really do damage in the timing attacks i think, but im just speculating
Terran map control is based on siege. When Terran has critical mass of tanks, turrets and mines, he can split the map in two and Protoss will just flop and die if he tries to break the Terran's hold.
Unless he has carriers of course. But then again, Terran is so difficult to play because tanks are just so important, yet so weak; losing very few of them can still hurt the Terran's push so much.
When Terran does an upgrade or Protoss third expansion timing push, Protoss can just zealot bomb/ mine drag, flank Terran hardcore unless Terran does a slow push, which somewhat beats the purpose of the Terran timing push.
The Protoss contain on Terran is not about killing the Terran outright, but instead to deny all scouting attempts, deny any fast pushing out of the natural and deny the third base.
If the Terran does not manage to scout P's third going up in time, he'll get outmacroed even if he goes for a 2 base all-in.
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if you go 2 gate range obs expand, isn't the timing window where you have ~10 goons +1 obs and you can push out to the terran natural?
anyway, i think that this would work (it would feel like zerg vs protoss where you always deny the terran an expo) but i think some sort of 2 base arbiter could work a little more efficiently in either facing the terran army head on, or a recall into his base.
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cause his 2 base beats yours its very simple the terran would never go for a third if u didnt make one first
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On March 22 2010 01:02 sArite_nite wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 00:46 Sky.Technique wrote:On March 22 2010 00:15 BallKicker wrote:
I always wondered "Why is Terran the pushing race? Why can't it be Protoss or even Zerg? Why is Terran the race that contains the most and the best? Protoss can never contain against a Terran. Why does Terran have so much timing pushes when Protoss has no timing pushes against a Terran? It is kind of hard to contain a terran when they have siege tanks which outrange every unit in the game, you will just be throwing away units if you attempt a contain. I think the reason why terran is the pushing race is because terran doesnt have map control that much (aside from vultures) and they are pretty immobile so they can only really do damage in the timing attacks i think, but im just speculating Terran map control is based on siege. When Terran has critical mass of tanks, turrets and mines, he can split the map in two and Protoss will just flop and die if he tries to break the Terran's hold. Unless he has carriers of course. But then again, Terran is so difficult to play because tanks are just so important, yet so weak; losing very few of them can still hurt the Terran's push so much. When Terran does an upgrade or Protoss third expansion timing push, Protoss can just zealot bomb/ mine drag, flank Terran hardcore unless Terran does a slow push, which somewhat beats the purpose of the Terran timing push. The Protoss contain on Terran is not about killing the Terran outright, but instead to deny all scouting attempts, deny any fast pushing out of the natural and deny the third base. If the Terran does not manage to scout P's third going up in time, he'll get outmacroed even if he goes for a 2 base all-in.
oh yea containing vultures and scouts and stuff yea, but i thought he meant contain as in like pvz where he is literally right outside your base and its very hard to break out (which is why i referenced siege tanks outranging every unit)
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On March 22 2010 01:49 Sky.Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:02 sArite_nite wrote:On March 22 2010 00:46 Sky.Technique wrote:On March 22 2010 00:15 BallKicker wrote:
I always wondered "Why is Terran the pushing race? Why can't it be Protoss or even Zerg? Why is Terran the race that contains the most and the best? Protoss can never contain against a Terran. Why does Terran have so much timing pushes when Protoss has no timing pushes against a Terran? It is kind of hard to contain a terran when they have siege tanks which outrange every unit in the game, you will just be throwing away units if you attempt a contain. I think the reason why terran is the pushing race is because terran doesnt have map control that much (aside from vultures) and they are pretty immobile so they can only really do damage in the timing attacks i think, but im just speculating Terran map control is based on siege. When Terran has critical mass of tanks, turrets and mines, he can split the map in two and Protoss will just flop and die if he tries to break the Terran's hold. Unless he has carriers of course. But then again, Terran is so difficult to play because tanks are just so important, yet so weak; losing very few of them can still hurt the Terran's push so much. When Terran does an upgrade or Protoss third expansion timing push, Protoss can just zealot bomb/ mine drag, flank Terran hardcore unless Terran does a slow push, which somewhat beats the purpose of the Terran timing push. The Protoss contain on Terran is not about killing the Terran outright, but instead to deny all scouting attempts, deny any fast pushing out of the natural and deny the third base. If the Terran does not manage to scout P's third going up in time, he'll get outmacroed even if he goes for a 2 base all-in. oh yea containing vultures and scouts and stuff yea, but i thought he meant contain as in like pvz where he is literally right outside your base and its very hard to break out (which is why i referenced siege tanks outranging every unit)
The good Protosses usually camp their goons close by, and when they see the T moving out they just waltz the goons in and snipe a few tanks and stuff, unless the Terran is doing a slow push where some tanks remain sieged.
Of course, it's not a rock-solid contain like the one you're referencing with PvZ, but more of a TvZ where the Z goes 3 hatch lurker and the T dances marines around to stall the lurker push. (God I love TvZ this way)
But anyway, @OP: 2 base Protoss is very unstable against a good Terran who knows what to look out for.
If the toss stays on two base, the Terran will add factories one by one the later the P's third goes up.
And 200/200 toss against 200/200 T really doesn't work out well for P. If both players choose to mass off two base, T will benefit because of the defensive nature of the race.
Definitely, T has to have a good composition of tanks, vults, mines and turrets, as well as 2-3 vessels if you're talking about 2 base arbiters. The only, only thing I can think of as a PvT timing attack off 2 base is mass speedlot off 8 gates, thereabouts, with shuttle support.
Works on certain maps when the Terran isn't pumping vults just yet, and the natural is wide open for speedlots to just stream through and kill tanks. It's very hard for a T to recover from losing all the tanks in the natural, even to the point of taking fatal damage and constant pressure (rally gates and spam lots)
Just keep in mind that if timing attacks fail, then the P will be at a severe disadvantage.
Ta~
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EPT
