Hey guys, I'm a D level Protoss right now, and I was just wondering your take on this strategy I tried to copy from while watching a stream.
The basis was that versus Zerg, he FE into citadel first, before Stargate. Research Leg Enhancements and throw down another Gateway. As the research ticks away and you pump Zealots from your 1, soon to be 2 gates, put down 2 Stargates and pump Corsairs. As soon as the speed upgrade finishes, rush out with whatever Zealots you have and harass the crap out of their Overlords with your massive Corsair army. You can either deny a 3rd, rush into the main and take out the pool/hydra den/spire, or go straight for workers.
I'm just curious as to what everyone else's take is on this (I browsed around the forum and didn't seem to see anything referring to this idea). I for one have crushed almost all of my recent Zerg opponents at the D/D+ level with this idea. It seems fairly weak against an early ling all-in, as I found out the hard way. But if protected properly, this seems to do massive damage to most zergs. I guess my question is, does this work for anyone else? Or for people at higher levels?
I'll try posting a replay as soon as I find out how ><;
[EDIT: Here's an example of me loosely using this idea against a Zerg on Destination. The only real difference here is instead of throwing up a lot of Gateways, I rushed observers after my first few Zealots to anticipate the Lurker counter I seem to always see. Causes the game to be drawn out very long. That and I suck at base management. Most games are about half as long as this ^^;
First of all, this build isn't any weaker vs zergling all-ins than any other build is after fe. Second, I don't get what you're trying to achieve with this OP.
"Hey look I always win, will I keep winning?"
BTW you should know that it works at "higher levels" since you saw it on stream in the first place -_-
I was just curious on people's opinions on the build, how reliable it could be, if there's some sort of counter that completely rapes it I ave yet to encounter. After all, I read the rules and the [?] is a request for information, unless I'm mistaken? I appreciate the VOD though, thank you very much. And true, the build shouldn't die to ling all-ins more than any other, that is probably just my lack of skill.
EDIT: The stream I was watching at the time was of a C- player, so I was also curious as to if it held up in levels beyond that, or as you cited in the pros.
a teammate of mine who's a high level zerg said this build is really popular atm and he struggles with it, it works really well because a lot of zergs will counter an early spinning forge (expected early +1 zealot attack) by going muta. then the duel stargates come into play and the sairs rape the overlords and the +1 zealots have a field day on zerglings.
I'm yet to try it tho, but it seems as if like most +1 zealot attacks, good sim city would simply stop it and lots of scourge will stop the corsair threat as usual.
OptimusTom, ur not alone with this build bud, its become quite common for p to open with speed zeal after FE, although perhaps not so common to switch into 2 stargate afterwords. i believe the trick is determining from early recon wether or not to attack before speed finishes, and or to ajust the timing of your build based on zergs early build. Their are alot of variations of when to time the attack with the zealots.
On February 10 2010 10:19 OptimusTom wrote: Hey guys, I'm a D level Protoss right now, and I was just wondering your take on this strategy I tried to copy from while watching a stream.
The basis was that versus Zerg, he FE into citadel first, before Stargate. Research Leg Enhancements and throw down another Gateway. As the research ticks away and you pump Zealots from your 1, soon to be 2 gates, put down 2 Stargates and pump Corsairs. As soon as the speed upgrade finishes, rush out with whatever Zealots you have and harass the crap out of their Overlords with your massive Corsair army. You can either deny a 3rd, rush into the main and take out the pool/hydra den/spire, or go straight for workers.
I'm just curious as to what everyone else's take is on this (I browsed around the forum and didn't seem to see anything referring to this idea). I for one have crushed almost all of my recent Zerg opponents at the D/D+ level with this idea. It seems fairly weak against an early ling all-in, as I found out the hard way. But if protected properly, this seems to do massive damage to most zergs. I guess my question is, does this work for anyone else? Or for people at higher levels?
I'll try posting a replay as soon as I find out how ><;
[EDIT: Here's an example of me loosely using this idea against a Zerg on Destination. The only real difference here is instead of throwing up a lot of Gateways, I rushed observers after my first few Zealots to anticipate the Lurker counter I seem to always see. Causes the game to be drawn out very long. That and I suck at base management. Most games are about half as long as this ^^;
I've watched Nony going this build few days ago when he was streaming, and i liked it very much. His execution was top notch, rushing into Zerg sim cities with 8+ Speedlots (+1), and after the 3rd is down (and all Zeals have burned down due to Mutas - who have just popped out - or zerglings), you have like 4 Corsairs in base to start terrorizing the skies.
Basically the fast zealot speed is a cheese designed to hit at a weird timing and fuck up a 3 hat lair zerg while the 2 stargate is your way of getting out of it if shit goes wrong or if the zerg survives with a bad eco but muta tech. It actually functions quite similarly to the old speedlot into archon build. The difference is that modern zergs have such good muta micro that archons cannot protect a probe line, especially with buildings blocking them. As such you need corsairs, and corsairs in sufficient numbers to stop a mutascourge allin wiping them out. You shouldn't always build up a fuckload of corsairs, that's situational and very bad (because v late storm) in the wrong contexts. But 150 gas thrown down for the extra production capacity is cheap and will save you if he has the muta. That's basically how and why it works. It's not a build designed for general use. It's a specific situational build to exploit a zerg with poor scouting doing a specific build.
On February 10 2010 10:57 Ftrunkz wrote: I'm yet to try it tho, but it seems as if like most +1 zealot attacks, good sim city would simply stop it and lots of scourge will stop the corsair threat as usual.
A careless zerg will often sim city at the standard timing (especially because his 4th and 5th hats are usually a part of it). This build hits before then.
A protoss with +1 air (standard with double stargate) and stacked corsairs will eat through scourge like they're not even there.
I was watching Nony's stream the other day and he used this build in every PvZ he did on tornado. So it works some what i higher levels. But nony was on his C+ account so he was playing kids that would lose to him no matter what he did. But what i did see is that he didnt kill any of the zerg straight up with it. BEcuase as zerg you look at the forge and see if the +1 is spinning. most of the zergs were ready for it and countered with a wall, good placed sunks and hydra's. Muta is a bad counter becuase of the dual stargate sair. That is imo anyways. and there are a few C/C+ zergs on my team that say mutas are bad counter. But over all the +1 speed lot timing attack build is good, Im C- protoss and iv been doing farely well with it. But like anything in this game, It has a counter it will never win you every game, and for builds to work you have to understand the goals of the build and how to execute them and how to recover and make the right decisions if it fails. Most of the time i seen nony retreating back to his base with what ever 4 or 5 lots he had left to defend while throwing up cannons and waiting for storms. So be scared of a hydra break if you do no damage, Cuz yo storms will be lait boy.
I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
On February 10 2010 11:25 Manlot wrote: I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
Altought maybe I didn't paid enought atention.
No, you're right. I've seen Nony do this a lot too. I'm pretty sure his timing and build choice depends on scouting information. He goes the Stargates first almost every time he can't scout information to see if it's a muta based or hydra based build. The advantages vs mutas are obvious, but vs hydras it lets yo stack your 4-6 corsairs and go to town on their supply limit. Since they have a bunch of hydras already, it really messes with them.
What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
It's a situational build. Yes, in many situations it is raped. However those are the situations in which it should not be used. The key to this build is knowing when to use it and when not to. It is not a standard build for general use.
On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote: What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
It would rape, I've had it done to me. The zerg just needs to scout very well.
Lurkers do work too, but normally after the timing of the zealot attack I push out against with 12 or so more zealots, getting pushed back by lurkers, After that, I have enough time for about 4 gateways of Zealots Dragoons, and teched to Observers in response. Then the lurkers kind of melt, unless the map is destination with the bridges like the replay I posted.
Probably the corsairs would pop out around 5:40, maybe 5:20 if you cut probes, and that would help against those builds because you would be able to scout them.
The build can work out really well, but it can also backfire. If zerg responds to your really fast +1 by going lurker tech instead of a spire, then he can still have hydra tech ready by the time your corsairs become a threat.
I don't have much experience against this, but I had little trouble holding off this rush against Nony a few days ago by only making 5 mutalisks to fend off the initial rush before transitioning into hydra tech. Of course despite being handed 2 waves of zealots with minimal damage, I still ended up getting run over...
If the zerg doesn't anticipate the corsairs and goes the normal 11 mutalisks, then you will probably be in a really good position. I think there was some 30 minute game between Jaedong and Rock on un'goro crater a long time ago where such happened.
On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote: What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
Okay now that I thought about this build, it can be actually be REALLY good versus Zergs. If you see Zergs doing the standard 3-Hatch Mutalisk into 5 Hatch Hydra, then this build would be fine if you get damage Zerg's base with the +1 Speedlot right before the Muta pops up but at that time you have already some Corsairs to defend against it and then continue popping Zealots to maybe end the game. BUT if the other guy goes Hydralisk (instead of Mutalisk), you know that he is not producing any Mutalisk soon, so that's STORM time! since you already have the Citadel and continue teching up for High Templar, WILL melt through the army.
On February 10 2010 12:12 Xiphos wrote: Okay now that I thought about this build, it can be actually be REALLY good versus Zergs. If you see Zergs doing the standard 3-Hatch Mutalisk into 5 Hatch Hydra, then this build would be fine if you get damage Zerg's base with the +1 Speedlot right before the Muta pops up but at that time you have already some Corsairs to defend against it and then continue popping Zealots to maybe end the game. BUT if the other guy goes Hydralisk (instead of Mutalisk), you know that he is not producing any Mutalisk soon, so that's STORM time! since you already have the Citadel and continue teching up for High Templar, WILL melt through the army.
This is true, but it requires you to still pump some corsairs for scouting purposes. If you devote into pumping zealots, I normally throw up 2+ more gateways after the initial rush does damage. I'm still stuck on what to transition to if the inital charge doesn't work, I guess that's another point I was looking for by posting this. Archives tech seems valid, because of easy access to storms. Or DT's if you can harass away their overlords.
Regardless, teching to archives will only work if you can hold them off well enough. It's also a valid counter to segway into if they lurker tech and you keep their OL count down. 2 - 3 HT's with storms should mop up low-supply amounts of lurkers if you can't get Obs in time.
dont you usually get your archives so that you can immediately upgrade +2 weapons when +1 finishes? and then robo for obs and then add on gates. at least thats what nony does
On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote: Can't Lurkers rape this build?
that's what i was thinking :S
if they open lurkers first then yeah, but most will go mutas to counter the speedlot rush which is badly countered by them, but thent he mutas are countered by double SG.
if they go lurkers they wont have hydra ups so you will be able to rape their ovies aswell
On February 10 2010 11:44 kineSiS- wrote: What if you went 5 hatch hydra... ignoring the other BO which 3 Hatch Spire --> 5 Hatch Hydra. Because then your hatcheries would be put up so much faster, and my hydras out so much quicker, how would this build fair with a zerg that can simcity?
You would have to focus on protecting your overlords because 4+ sairs with attack upgrade will be roaming around the map.
You need to get +1 with your first 100 gas to play this build right, the citadel first is mirroring the old school +1 zealot build to have +1 and leg speed done at the same time. Meanwhile get 2 stargates to pump corsairs in anticipation to defend vs mutas.
This is a trick build that tries to catch an unprepared zerg off guard. New zergs who started with the 5 hatch hydra may be unfamiliar with the +1 opening. They are troubled initially to see the fast +1 but once they see the first stargate, they'll get a false assurance that you are doing a "regular sair/dt" opening after all... The +1 zealots will hit right at the first round of hydra production, zerg simply cannot defend with 2-3 slow hydras, 1 morphing sunken, and a few zerglings when you have the +1 upgrade. Keep streaming zealots off of 3 gates and take your expansion while the attack is going on. Even if zerg survives he will be very behind.
Against older zergs who would auto-counter the +1 opening with mutas, your +1 attack won't do damage, but the follow up can be tricky for the zerg. In an old school game, after defending the +1 attack, zerg expects to get map control for quite some time with mutas followed by lurkers. They will be shocked to find a whole fleet of corsairs waiting for them at your base, and your follow up attack with mass corsairs + zeal/dt will be very devastating against a zerg who has only mutas to defend and some lurker eggs that has just started morphing...
Basically the key element is surprise. I have died to this build several times, in both of the above situations... before I even took the build seriously and studied it... Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes.
On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote: Can't Lurkers rape this build?
3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote: Can't Lurkers rape this build?
3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers.
On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote: Can't Lurkers rape this build?
3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers.
Since when is lurker contain bad vs FE toss and when does toss intentionally stay on 2 base for a while?
i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
On February 10 2010 11:37 Xiphos wrote: Can't Lurkers rape this build?
3 hatch lurker into hydra/lurker would do very well, but who does that anymore...... 5 hatch lurker in a modern style would die just like 5 hatch hydra, lurkers won't come out in time.
w3jjjj is right a lurker contain is useless against a FE protoss because protoss stays on 2 bases for a really long time and speedlots will just run past them. Besides corsairs will dominate 3hatch lurkers.
Since when is lurker contain bad vs FE toss and when does toss intentionally stay on 2 base for a while?
theres a reason no one 3 hatch lurkers against protoss anymore because corsairs, dts, reaver drops, and early storm (although not in the 2starport build) rape lurker builds.
2 hatch lurker maybe but i still think zerg will have too few lurkers to contain speedlots. Even if you defend your natural the protoss can just target your main kill your den and pool, and when you bring your lurkers to defend your main, the zealots run to do damage to the natural. Lurkers are to slow and the only damage you might be able to do to a FE protoss is destroy the forge and 1st gateway.
The 5 hatch hydra build with a slight variation owns this build badly. Instead of getting a spire after lair is done, get a 4th hatch before lair is done and a 5th hatch after that. Get a hydra den with speed upgrade first and overlord speed. Most of the time, you can 1a2a3a into protoss's natural and win cause it's 36 hydras vs 12 zealots and 7 cannons. This build's weakness is delayed storm. Even if he has storm ready in time, you'll have a good enough economy (5 fast hatcheries) to transition to a normal hydra + mutalisk army.
edit: The reason why you don't get a spire against this opening is because the spire's function in the 5 hatch hydra build is to make scourge to counter the initial corsairs, if there's no corsairs, you don't need scourge so quickly.
What is the point in opening 3 hatch spire if you plan to counter +1 speedlot builds without mutalisks or lurkers? Wouldn't you be way better off just going 4 hatch before gas then?
On February 11 2010 15:29 Monkeyz_Rule wrote: What is the point in opening 3 hatch spire if you plan to counter +1 speedlot builds without mutalisks or lurkers? Wouldn't you be way better off just going 4 hatch before gas then?
You need the scourge at that timing to stop sairs building up a critical mass and doing too much damage. Without overlord speed corsairs in small groups can really bring the pain if the guy has the game sense to find the openings.
On February 10 2010 11:25 Manlot wrote: I think I saw nony doing it with subtle differences. For example, sometimes he would make citadel first then gate then 2 SG. Sometimes He would make 2 SG fisrt. I think it's a pretty cool build if you know how to make those subtle changes.
Altought maybe I didn't paid enought atention.
thats 2 compleetly different bos. The citadel first is a modern adaptation of the old speedzeal rush witch uses corsairs instand of arkons to defend vs possible mutas, the goal of the ordinary speedzeal was to take a fast 3rd during the zerg are fighting your zealots, nowdays muta micro is strongest and it slows your 3rda bit good vs old sauron zergs the double starport first (or 1port +1air) is designes to trade your zealots for overlords and then do major damage with dts, it is good vs modern 3hat spire into 5hat muta bo and its solid vs neo sauron. It have a bit of priblems vs the bo savior used when he was bonjiwa, the lurker first bo with spores and then mutas, but its a bo being raped by standard sair dt, so if you see fast den and later spire stop zealot production skipp speed and go harass with sair dt
On February 10 2010 11:48 KwarK wrote: It's a situational build. Yes, in many situations it is raped. However those are the situations in which it should not be used. The key to this build is knowing when to use it and when not to. It is not a standard build for general use.
So you're saying... it's.... The Stove 2.0?
Also regarding the pro game at the start with Jangbi... god damn I love that match, the game just EXPLODES at 7~minutes.
On February 11 2010 13:37 w3jjjj wrote: You need to get +1 with your first 100 gas to play this build right, the citadel first is mirroring the old school +1 zealot build to have +1 and leg speed done at the same time. Meanwhile get 2 stargates to pump corsairs in anticipation to defend vs mutas.
This is a trick build that tries to catch an unprepared zerg off guard. New zergs who started with the 5 hatch hydra may be unfamiliar with the +1 opening. They are troubled initially to see the fast +1 but once they see the first stargate, they'll get a false assurance that you are doing a "regular sair/dt" opening after all... The +1 zealots will hit right at the first round of hydra production, zerg simply cannot defend with 2-3 slow hydras, 1 morphing sunken, and a few zerglings when you have the +1 upgrade. Keep streaming zealots off of 3 gates and take your expansion while the attack is going on. Even if zerg survives he will be very behind.
Against older zergs who would auto-counter the +1 opening with mutas, your +1 attack won't do damage, but the follow up can be tricky for the zerg. In an old school game, after defending the +1 attack, zerg expects to get map control for quite some time with mutas followed by lurkers. They will be shocked to find a whole fleet of corsairs waiting for them at your base, and your follow up attack with mass corsairs + zeal/dt will be very devastating against a zerg who has only mutas to defend and some lurker eggs that has just started morphing...
Basically the key element is surprise. I have died to this build several times, in both of the above situations... before I even took the build seriously and studied it... Basically the right counter is a muta opening into hydra/scourge. It takes some time to build up your corsair fleet even with 2 stargates, so there is still a small window after your +1 attack is over when the mutas will have map control. You will have 4-5 corsairs and more in production, so your base is safe, but you cannot move out to face a full group of full health mutas yet, meaning you can't attack or take an expansion. This is the window where zerg can safely get a few drones and add scourge to keep your corsairs in base while he switches to hydra/scourge. Keep in mind that in this build you are not getting storms anytime soon, so a zerg who successfully transitions into mass hydra without taking any damage early on will be in a better position at this point.
Personally I start +1 air armor as soon as I see both +1 and stargate in anticipation of this fairly tricky build. It's a very simple game plan for zerg once you know what to do...1. defend the +1 attack with mutas as usual, 2. keep the corsair fleet at bay with muta/scourge before the corsair number become overwhelming (8-9?). 3. switch to mass hydras in anticipation of losing air control. 4. use hydras to expand and keeping the mutas alive. 5. get lurkers. 6. re-take air control when +1 air armor finishes.
I will refer you back to this post because it basically gives you everything you need to know about this build.
For more information. This build was the go to build back a few years ago when Zergs still went 5 hatch Hydra and +1 Carapace (no Lair). It's primary goal was to push the Zerg back in his base and keep him defensive while Protoss secured a third. Nowadays with the early Lair tech, that early rendition has lost it's effectiveness because of the threat of Mutalisks, which essentially take map control and prevent any Protoss thirds from coming up. The dual Stargate addition is a modification of that early +1 Speedlot Rush build, designed to counter the fast Mutas from Zerg. This build is perfectly viable and can catch a lot of Zergs off guard, especially since it's become less popular. I'd say go for it, but this build does hurt you economicly and will delay your third by quite a bit since you need to get the Corsairs up. I'd try to avoid relying on this build because although it can work against the 3 Hatch Spire 5 Hatch Hydra build, it's not necessarily the most standard, nor will it actually improve your play per say. Mixing it in once in a while is fine though.
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote: i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
Nony if it isnt to much trouble for you, could you post a replay of your version of the build? So C- noobies such as my self can study it and learn it. But i could understand if you dont just wanna start handing off your work to other people. anyways thanks.
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote: i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
a replay of that BO could be good to us nony if u dont mind
On February 10 2010 10:49 De4ngus wrote: First of all, this build isn't any weaker vs zergling all-ins than any other build is after fe. Second, I don't get what you're trying to achieve with this OP.
"Hey look I always win, will I keep winning?"
BTW you should know that it works at "higher levels" since you saw it on stream in the first place -_-
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote: i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
He does it a lot in his stream, he usually follows with fast tech before adding gates and a DT drop in the main (clearing it with the mass of sairs) to buy time/do terrible damage.
I've seen Nony do it a lot too, that's where I first saw it done. If you fail to do a lot of damage with the speedlots too, instead of going for DT you can make the HT tech switch and still not be too far behind. I was able to pull this off vs a D+ Zerg the other day.
It's like a much more safe variant of hte Jangbi strategy, which is fairly old.... the Jangbi strategy was my (and still is somewhat) my current toss strategy, although I've definitely changed it to be less all-in (Jangbi has 3 gates for the speedlot rush and after the 2 stargates makes it a 5 gate constant all-in pump).
I find that most Zergs that go mutas to counter the speedlot rush are short on gas and thus temporarily skip ovie speed in order to get speed/range hydras and upgrades and additional scourge (once they see sairs). Thus sair/DT, at least at the C- level I use the strategy at (I stop playing vs Z when I hit C level :S because I don't ZvZ), is quite an effective followup instead of adding the extra two gates. Although I'm going to try Nony's variation with only 2 gates instead of 3 to see how it works. The 3 gate build, if he goes muta counter, you definitely still need a cannon (or even 2) at your mineral line by the time mutas arrive, especially if he ignores the speedlots (and for example sacks his third because he's scouted or something that you can't counter the mutas).
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote: i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
a replay of that BO could be good to us nony if u dont mind
Here is a rep of the MBC progamer Clare doing a variation of the build.
Works great against the standard 3 hatch muta into 5 hatch hydra, not so great vs many other builds such as 2-3 hatch lurkers into hydra muta. Haven't personally seen it used in high level games so can't really comment on that.
On February 11 2010 14:40 Liquid`NonY wrote: i love this build. i havent seen a pro player do it the way i do it. i see problems with all the pro versions. but maybe they are just taking risks. my version is supposed to handle anything! i originally started doing it as a way to completely avoid a situation of mutalisks sniping ht's.
a replay of that BO could be good to us nony if u dont mind
Here is a rep of the MBC progamer Clare doing a variation of the build.
That rep says it's invalid for me. Dont know about anyone else. anyway, I'm curious as to how the actual attack goes. We see in the replay that jangbi makes that initial attack and then from there he just pumps the zealots into calm's base. Is that what is supposed to be done? Are you supposed to send a small initial force to see what damage it can do? then when you have 4+ corsairs and a bunch of zealots do you move over?
EPT
good vs old sauron zergs
![[image loading]](http://repdepot.net/img/thumbs/31260.jpg)
