EPTCounter to Flash's tvz
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Loffeman
Sweden105 Posts
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Papvin
Denmark610 Posts
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HeaDStrong
Scotland785 Posts
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cz
United States3249 Posts
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disco
Netherlands1667 Posts
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Loffeman
Sweden105 Posts
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Nemesis
Canada2568 Posts
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Loffeman
Sweden105 Posts
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Navane
Netherlands2751 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8047 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:16 Nemesis wrote: Flash can't be beaten strictly by some new build order; he is an extremely adaptable player. The only way to beat Flash is to beat him at mind games. Or to outplay him. Look at his loss to BeSt in Proleague. BeSt just played better and won. | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 2hatch muta expo seemed to work well both times, the mobility of the mutas kept the 3rd alive well. adding lings hurts your economy, but makes it that much safer (see the match point opening where flash pressures the wrong position, but even if he'd had it right, kwanro stopped the aggression dead before it got there. kwanro's idea seems to be that if you skip lurkers and go straight to guardians you take advantage of flash's relatively slow vessels.. but flash coutered easily with 3port wraith swich... and that's where kwanro ggs.. until that point it seemd pretty even. for me, a hydra switch along with the guardians would be the obvious counter.. because of the range difference, the guardians could protect the hydras and vice versa...economically.. off 3 bases it shouldn't be to hard to do.. and you shouldn't need too many hydras.. maybe 12 to be safe, backed up by 8ish guardians (which is what kwanro was getting if he would just stop letting them get sniped! the advantage is that this would allow zerg to continue powering early game, rather than switching to lings too early (as people are suggesting) | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8047 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:21 Loffeman wrote: Well if Flash fans would stop to say that he can't be beaten and instead focus on good ideas of countering his build. There is always a good counter for any build it just has to be figured out If there were evident ideas on how to beat Flash, people 1654673 times more skilled than all of us together and who spend 14 hours a day playinng the game would have figured out. It's not a thread on TL that you will find "the" idea of how to beat Flash. To beat Flash is easy. You get better then him. You play smartly. You enjoy. At the moment nobody plays better than him, so he wins all the time. Won't last for ever. | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
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TheBB
Switzerland5133 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:03 HeaDStrong wrote: it's not like flash is strictly holding to a strategy he chose before the game. if one would go mass ling it would most likely not go unnoticed and appropriate play from t would hurt the zerg ergonomically reall hard Hurt the Zerg ergonomically? That sounds painful! | ||
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GoTuNk!
Chile4591 Posts
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MorroW
Sweden3522 Posts
it feels like most ppl who play against flash are nervous and doesnt play as good as they do vs other terrans | ||
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IPS.ZeRo
Germany1142 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:15 Loffeman wrote: I'm talking about progamers countering Flash. Obviously you have to hide the extra lings :p. As I said the terran probably won't have too much scouting going on because scvs gets killed of by lings at this stage of the game and he can't waste too many scans. Another interesting idea would be to combine it with burrow =) You can hide the lings, but scans will still discover either later tech or less drones than usual. And if the zerg is going for mutalisks then there is no reason to save up scans. | ||
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Nub4ever
Canada1981 Posts
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SiDX
New Zealand1975 Posts
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Infested Terran
80 Posts
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Demand2k
Norway875 Posts
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water-hand
Italy47 Posts
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Titanidis
Greece132 Posts
On January 15 2010 22:33 SiDX wrote: imo early zergling all in with ling speed..but if flash is prepared idk if it will work he usually is, with sim city, bunker, and maybe scvs depending on the oppponent and his information during the game. It seems to me that flash is really adaptive during the game, so to design an anti flash zvt bo is not that helpful, | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
9lord 12hatch 11pool 10gas x4drones x4lings @100gas - lair 16lord @100gas - lingspeed x3drones x14-16lings @50%lair - den @100%den - lurker aspect @50%aspect - 2-4hydras hatch at 3rd morph lurkers drones hatch in base 2nd gas evo chamber +1 carapace queens nest spire 3rd gas hive 12hydras morph lurkers defilers mound scourge and lings use the two initial ling groups to threaten a back stab so terran cant move out with 1st push i wouldnt engage his army with just lings but thats just me the surround slaughter might work ive never tried it though so i cant be to sure | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
seriously though, i wonder if delaying the tech is a realistic solution, would 3 hatch lurker be realistic? the problem imo is that the zerg needs a 3rd and flash is using early aggression to deny it, 3 hatch lurker won't be able to stop his aggression until the lurkers are out, then you'd need to kill or drive off flash's mnm... THEN you'd be able to take a 3rd two hatch muta allows you to take a 3rd as soon as your spire finishes as long as you know he's not moved out yet.. its much riskier, but it seems that you need to take risks if you wanna beat flash! | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
On January 15 2010 23:03 kerpal wrote: yeah... flash is a good player... CHEESE HIM seriously though, i wonder if delaying the tech is a realistic solution, would 3 hatch lurker be realistic? the problem imo is that the zerg needs a 3rd and flash is using early aggression to deny it, 3 hatch lurker won't be able to stop his aggression until the lurkers are out, then you'd need to kill or drive off flash's mnm... THEN you'd be able to take a 3rd two hatch muta allows you to take a 3rd as soon as your spire finishes as long as you know he's not moved out yet.. its much riskier, but it seems that you need to take risks if you wanna beat flash! why not do 3hatch builds with the 3rd inside the base? | ||
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:35 Biff The Understudy wrote: If there were evident ideas on how to beat Flash, people 1654673 times more skilled than all of us together and who spend 14 hours a day playinng the game would have figured out. It's not a thread on TL that you will find "the" idea of how to beat Flash. To beat Flash is easy. You get better then him. You play smartly. You enjoy. At the moment nobody plays better than him, so he wins all the time. Won't last for ever. Really I wouldn't say Reach is better then him but he completely obliterated Flash recently in a TvT. He will lose as you make it sound like he will never lose right now. Honestly I think the only player right now who can take him out of the MSL is Jaedong as the bo3 on the OSL where he lost still doesn't prove that flash is better then him because he won 1 standard game >>. | ||
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
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knyttym
United States5797 Posts
Also the timing where a zergling allin will work is even smaller then before. His simcity creates a ramp-like choke at his natural. That along with fast scv blocking reactions and a bunker that can be surrounded by scvs in an instant (HBR simcity) you have an antizergling build. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/games/11776_July_vs_Really/vod | ||
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oberon
United States1320 Posts
On January 15 2010 23:00 wut_wut3 wrote: 2hatch lurker is what youre looking for 9pool 12hatch 11pool That's a lot of pools. --oberon | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
my bad ill fix it | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 15 2010 23:08 wut_wut3 wrote: why not do 3hatch builds with the 3rd inside the base? explain how are you going to grow up a 3rd inside your base? Double ling production baby ^^ | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
[QUOTE]On January 15 2010 23:08 wut_wut3 wrote: [QUOTE]On January 15 2010 23:03 kerpal wrote: yeah... flash is a good player... CHEESE HIM seriously though, i wonder if delaying the tech is a realistic solution, would 3 hatch lurker be realistic? the problem imo is that the zerg needs a 3rd and flash is using early aggression to deny it, 3 hatch lurker won't be able to stop his aggression until the lurkers are out, then you'd need to kill or drive off flash's mnm... THEN you'd be able to take a 3rd two hatch muta allows you to take a 3rd as soon as your spire finishes as long as you know he's not moved out yet.. its much riskier, but it seems that you need to take risks if you wanna beat flash![/QUOTE] why not do 3hatch builds with the 3rd inside the base?[/QUOTE] explain how are you going to grow up a 3rd inside your base? just a 3rd hatchery in your main it doesnt get you more minerals just more larvae | ||
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Shotcoder
United States2316 Posts
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love1another
United States1844 Posts
You continue to sign your posts. --love1another | ||
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yoshi_yoshi
United States440 Posts
I wonder if someone could fake greater spire but instead go for something else. The wasted money would only be in the greater spire, as the fast hive is still useful (albeit not immediately). | ||
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SuperArc
Austria7781 Posts
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oberon
United States1320 Posts
On January 16 2010 04:16 love1another wrote: You continue to sign your posts. --love1another I hate to go offtopic, but I will, just this once. I've always signed my posts on forums, the same way I always sign my email (despite knowing who it's from by the "FROM:" address). At this point, I'm going to sign all my posts on TL for all-time, just because of the hilarious reactions it gets. Back on topic: I don't think the original poster was looking for a "build that beats Flash", because there obviously isn't one (i.e. a single build that Flash just can't handle). On the other hand, Flash's recent TvZ has followed certain patterns (denying a third), and that can certainly be countered. The problem is using such a counter-build without Flash noticing -- seems unlikely. --oberon | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 16 2010 03:43 ProoM wrote: explain how are you going to grow up a 3rd inside your base? It goes to show how accustomed people have gotten to greedy play when even an in-base 3rd hatchery is considered strange. | ||
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synapse
China13814 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:14 disco wrote: The counter to flash's TvZ is 9 pool speed. And not let T know  | ||
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ShaLLoW[baY]
Canada12499 Posts
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dogabutila
United States1437 Posts
I mean, kwanro took a game and was close another time. Flash isn't invincible, just playing really well. | ||
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wut_wut3
United States221 Posts
On January 16 2010 06:35 TheYango wrote: It goes to show how accustomed people have gotten to greedy play when even an in-base 3rd hatchery is considered strange. yay someone remembers way back when | ||
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Neon_Monkey
United States270 Posts
No one has suggested that people are saying to take a 3rd base with their 3rd hatchery while doing a 3 hatch build. The problem is that often when zergs go 3 hatch muta they gas at 16 or 17 and take their 3rd base right after their spire starts, while using 12 lings to keep T in their base. As a result Z has their 3rd almost done by the time mutas pop. However flash has always moved out and punished this, leaving Z with a really late 3rd base, a bunch of useless stockpiled minerals, and slightly later tech. So when someone suggests taking a 3rd in your main, is sounds kind of like he is suggesting that there is a 3rd gas to take in your main rather than putting a 3rd hatch in your main (as everyone already does...) And this thread title spoiled Kwanro vs Flash for me right before I watched it  Not that I was expecting otherwise... | ||
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piratebay
United States399 Posts
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:43 StylishVODs wrote: Flash plays standard, there is no counter. This really should have been the end of the discussion | ||
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Picture
Canada75 Posts
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Jayme
United States5866 Posts
On January 16 2010 06:35 oberon wrote: I hate to go offtopic, but I will, just this once. I've always signed my posts on forums, the same way I always sign my email (despite knowing who it's from by the "FROM:" address). At this point, I'm going to sign all my posts on TL for all-time, just because of the hilarious reactions it gets. Back on topic: I don't think the original poster was looking for a "build that beats Flash", because there obviously isn't one (i.e. a single build that Flash just can't handle). On the other hand, Flash's recent TvZ has followed certain patterns (denying a third), and that can certainly be countered. The problem is using such a counter-build without Flash noticing -- seems unlikely. --oberon So you're an obnoxious douche. Good to know how much value people should put into what your post. | ||
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daz
Canada643 Posts
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vRoOk
United States1024 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:14 disco wrote: The counter to flash's TvZ is 9 pool speed. This. | ||
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meegrean
Thailand7699 Posts
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RandomAccount#49059
United States2140 Posts
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Jaxtyk
United States600 Posts
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t_co
United States702 Posts
On January 16 2010 16:12 Jaxtyk wrote: Muta micro. Scourge flash's clowns. | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
research and cast "Flash Eye-twitch" | ||
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On January 16 2010 06:35 TheYango wrote: It goes to show how accustomed people have gotten to greedy play when even an in-base 3rd hatchery is considered strange. he said that you should build your 3rd expo inside your base, makes a lot of sence right? and 3rd hatch is obv up and running 5 minutes ago in your base (if you go 3 hatch muta) | ||
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marcoso
Brazil818 Posts
queen's ensnare:
increases units efficiency, specially lurkers; really difficult to counter; plus, queen may be used to scout (parasite) and requires less tech than defilers. why not? | ||
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duckett
United States589 Posts
it's either going to be straight up playing better, up to his level, or a metagame shift, like ensnare...but i dont think it will be a metagame shift bc this is a problem mostly with just flash playing standard and having absurd control and execution the thing with ensnare is that it's really hard to position and execute an ensnare well...you'll only have one or two shots to ensnare and ambush, right? still really strong if you can make these few opportunities count or use it to delay, but not really all that reliable. princeton players beat gretorp with ensnare in a 4v1 team melee =) edit: holy crap im a marine! =D=D=D that's awesome! | ||
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lavion
Singapore286 Posts
On January 16 2010 06:20 yoshi_yoshi wrote: I noticed in Game 1/4 when Kwanro went fast guards, Flash plunked down 3 starports extremely quickly in both cases, and had maybe 5-6 wraiths before any guards were even morphed. I wonder if someone could fake greater spire but instead go for something else. The wasted money would only be in the greater spire, as the fast hive is still useful (albeit not immediately). if you do this, say goodbye to your overlords | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
No way of BO raping the best standard Terran in the game. Zergs just need to never miss dropships, never mess up with defilers, and never mess up Mutas. ZvT's the hardest MU in the game yo, never gonna be easy to beat the best TvZ. | ||
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zqmdfg
United States2 Posts
So, one the first note, the only time flash is gonna do an aggressive push to counter 3 hatch mutas is if he went for a 4/5 rax build, which he is doing more commonly nowadays. If he's doing a build where he goes for a 2rax build into vessels, then hes not gonna push out so this means that, even if you do kill his initial push with ling/mutas, he will have 4/5 rax pumping our marines and can reinforce in like half a minute another thing to note is that whenever flash does this build, his timing is so that he gets +1 weapons as the mutas come out  and to another person who typed earlier, you can fake tech. all you needa do is throw down a hydra den and an evo chamber to make flash think you're going for lurkers cause most of the time, pro gamers do hidden lurker morphs anyways | ||
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Poetic[AoV]
United Kingdom183 Posts
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shinjin
United States398 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:26 Navane wrote: No, I think this time Flash broke starcraft. i had a good long laugh when i saw that, thank you good sir :D also id like to say that aside from counter flashs build, which may not be that possible due to his adaptability. i feel that many people are seeing the wrong situation its not only necessarily that flash has a better build, but that he is a better PLAYER you cant really deny how mechanically solid flash is, and his "starsense" for a zerg player to counter flash as a whole, he/she needs more than just a BUILD order counter, they gotta out mindgame, outplan, and outplay him too. So you see, its going to be awhile before anyone stops flash... because its not only his build thats solid. | ||
swanized
Canada2480 Posts
how to beat Flash -make lings -profit | ||
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Reuental
United States457 Posts
On January 16 2010 06:29 SuperArc wrote: 9pool speed should be quite effective against Flash since it completely leaves Flash in the dark. 9 pool speed is not a good opener against T at all. If he walls in your lings will be utterly useless and you will be so far behind economy wise that there is no way for you to recover. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
Jaedong vs FLash 4set Nate msl. Overpool>forward 7rax. BO win | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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Brad`
Canada548 Posts
On June 15 2011 08:19 swanized wrote: rofl this thread is gold how to beat Flash -make lings -profit I know, we all know the real answer is to roofie his pocari sweat. | ||
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Zariel
Australia1292 Posts
1) Cut off reinforcements - your gonna need 1 full control group to pick off his 4-6 marines at a time that want to reinforce with the ball. 2) Cannon fodder for mutas - 12-18 lings. Use same mindset as JD when he played against flash in Group D. Forcing stims is crucial. You should have main, nat, in-base hatches. Your third should be up with 3 sunkens. Seriously, look at how Flash plays. He makes his opponent to this 'packing shit' mode that his 3rd is gonna get roflstomped, forcing all attention to your side and letting him easily re-inforce his army. | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
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erikzbi
China43 Posts
On June 15 2011 10:08 Zariel wrote: You need to divide lings into 2 forces. They are crucial to your survival. 1) Cut off reinforcements - your gonna need 1 full control group to pick off his 4-6 marines at a time that want to reinforce with the ball. 2) Cannon fodder for mutas - 12-18 lings. Use same mindset as JD when he played against flash in Group D. Forcing stims is crucial. You should have main, nat, in-base hatches. Your third should be up with 3 sunkens. Seriously, look at how Flash plays. He makes his opponent to this 'packing shit' mode that his 3rd is gonna get roflstomped, forcing all attention to your side and letting him easily re-inforce his army. a third hatch is necessary, and after 12 hatch maybe you need hydralysk and lurker control over his marine, medic and firebat. then get money for more lings, as zariel said | ||
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konadora
Singapore66358 Posts
OP IS GOD LOL i bet jaedong read this thread | ||
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jonaada
Iceland49 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:15 Loffeman wrote: I'm talking about progamers countering Flash. Obviously you have to hide the extra lings :p. As I said the terran probably won't have too much scouting going on because scvs gets killed of by lings at this stage of the game and he can't waste too many scans. Another interesting idea would be to combine it with burrow =) Isn´t it a rule of thumb to always scan your opponents drone count? If so he´ll probably know about the extra lings before long.. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On January 15 2010 23:00 wut_wut3 wrote: 2hatch lurker is what youre looking for 9lord 12hatch 11pool 10gas x4drones x4lings @100gas - lair 16lord @100gas - lingspeed x3drones x14-16lings @50%lair - den @100%den - lurker aspect @50%aspect - 2-4hydras hatch at 3rd morph lurkers drones hatch in base 2nd gas evo chamber +1 carapace queens nest spire 3rd gas hive 12hydras morph lurkers defilers mound scourge and lings use the two initial ling groups to threaten a back stab so terran cant move out with 1st push i wouldnt engage his army with just lings but thats just me the surround slaughter might work ive never tried it though so i cant be to sure Yeah, 2 hatch lurker is definitely the solution. | ||
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b0lt
United States790 Posts
On June 15 2011 22:00 Djagulingu wrote: Yeah, 2 hatch lurker is definitely the solution. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xj6FaNT8WVI Especially against Valkonic | ||
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CoolManJones
United States23 Posts
only way a T can stop a 7 pool is by making his whole sim city at his resources. To people saying cheese is lame or w/e... if it works, then do it. And don't forget that what started as a cheese can evolve into a full game easily. | ||
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On June 16 2011 01:10 CoolManJones wrote: I have huge success with zerg rushing terrans. only way a T can stop a 7 pool is by making his whole sim city at his resources. To people saying cheese is lame or w/e... if it works, then do it. And don't forget that what started as a cheese can evolve into a full game easily. Cheese doesn't work reliably vs good terrans. Flash notably stopped it cold in a finals vs Jaedong on Grand Line (he only lost the Polaris Rhapsody game because he proxy 8rax'd and jaedong has the ling micro of a god) Also, you're wrong: See Calm v Fantasy on Pathfinder @ OSL Ro4 (set.... 3? 4?) Fantasy gets a wall at his natural and holds it vs a 5pool | ||
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lightson
45 Posts
Not sure about a direct counter, but during the initial push of m&m + valk, maybe more lings as mentioned earlier or going mass hydras with ups + lings if scouted the armory. but ofcourse alot of this depends on scouting + metagame. | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On June 15 2011 23:46 b0lt wrote: Especially against Valkonic http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSpS68Ape8k | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 16 2011 02:09 xxpack09 wrote: Cheese doesn't work reliably vs good terrans. Flash notably stopped it cold in a finals vs Jaedong on Grand Line (he only lost the Polaris Rhapsody game because he proxy 8rax'd and jaedong has the ling micro of a god) Also, you're wrong: See Calm v Fantasy on Pathfinder @ OSL Ro4 (set.... 3? 4?) Fantasy gets a wall at his natural and holds it vs a 5pool on grand line, it only worked because he scouted it. Had he scouted wrong direction, there would be no bunker in the main, no scvs pulled, and no marines surving. 5pool is terrible vs terran because you get less lings, and it's way too slow. a lot of the times, it's up to the terran to fail and because Flash doesn't fail too often, it's almost impossible to beat him. | ||
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Djagulingu
Germany3605 Posts
On June 16 2011 02:45 101toss wrote: Don't let him 14cc, 9p speed works fine 9 pool speed would suck against anything else. ZvP, 9 pool opening is as reliable as 12 hatch and doesn't give you any eco disadvantage considering your opponent is able to react a 9 pool. If he can't, it's even better. But I seriously don't think anything off 9 pool opening can be good against Terran. | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On June 16 2011 01:10 CoolManJones wrote: I have huge success with zerg rushing terrans. only way a T can stop a 7 pool is by making his whole sim city at his resources. To people saying cheese is lame or w/e... if it works, then do it. And don't forget that what started as a cheese can evolve into a full game easily. It took 12 years, but someone has finally solved StarCraft. Bravo... BRAVO!!! (A good Terran player can beat a bad Zerg player even if caught off guard just have having a marine and decent scv micro. If it gets scouted your pretty much autolose as Zerg which isn't much fun. Best to save it for important games when there is some kind of drama than to do it all the time and never be able to beat the same person consistently because they eventually figure out you're bad.) | ||
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Taekwon
United States8155 Posts
kk captn obvious out | ||
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101toss
3232 Posts
On June 16 2011 05:35 Djagulingu wrote: 9 pool speed would suck against anything else. ZvP, 9 pool opening is as reliable as 12 hatch and doesn't give you any eco disadvantage considering your opponent is able to react a 9 pool. If he can't, it's even better. But I seriously don't think anything off 9 pool opening can be good against Terran. It works great when you know your opponent (Flash) will always 14cc or proxy rax :D | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On June 16 2011 01:10 CoolManJones wrote: I have huge success with zerg rushing terrans. only way a T can stop a 7 pool is by making his whole sim city at his resources. To people saying cheese is lame or w/e... if it works, then do it. And don't forget that what started as a cheese can evolve into a full game easily. Yes! It must be either their morals or a lack of creativity holding Zero and Jaedong back.... Someone quickly make an artistic cheerful with big letters saying "SEVEN POOL"! I'm sure we're all willing to chip in a few bucks to send someone to Korea and end Flash's reign of terror! | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2356 Posts
On January 15 2010 21:14 disco wrote: The counter to flash's TvZ is 9 pool speed. pretty much this | ||
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ghrur
United States3786 Posts
Why do zergs 9pool vs terran instead of overpool like vs toss? The ling timings are similar enough... :/ | ||
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Release
United States4397 Posts
On June 17 2011 15:22 ghrur wrote: Hmmmmm, how much of an econ advantage does terran get with 1rax CC vs 9pool if Z doesn't commit any drones to gas and transitions to 3 hatch muta? Why do zergs 9pool vs terran instead of overpool like vs toss? The ling timings are similar enough... :/ well, the terran remains approximately 0-1 bases ahead of the zerg whole game until the zerg loses so... 9 pool is really to deny a 14CC and overpool means many more scvs and potential marines so there is almost no chance of the deny. 9pool against 1rax fe force 4-6 scvs off the line and overpool forces maybe 1. The reason zerg can overpool vs protoss is because it still forces 2 cannons if the protoss forge FE. 9pool against protoss forces 2 cannons as well as probe pull so the zerg can drag down the protoss economy with the zerg economy. SCVs are strong enough that few will die, and the zerglins become economically inefficient. | ||
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ForTenPoints
United States140 Posts
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