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Hey all, i'm a D+ player on iccup, playing zerg.
Lately i've been enocuntering these early 2/3 gate zealot pushes. when i was a d, fighting those off was easy. can just pump a ton of lings, and some sunks, micro around a little, and at some point, even if i lost some drones or something, i'd get a faster tech and kill him with mutas. (if he stops earlier, to tech, I can keep playing standard)
Nowdays, however, facing better opponents, it seems they not only macro more zealots then i can easily deal with, but also keep pumping some probes, and getting tech.
This means, while I spend all my larvaes on lings, they manage the get some economy.
Also means that by the time i get to mutas, they already have a corsair flying around.
Maybe I just shouldn't pick up my nat when i see early pressure, but then I feel like I fall even further behind on economy, and I need a second hatch anyway, so it feels like a waste, putting that in my main.
Don't have a specific replay due to problem with the autoreplay. sorry.
Anyway I hope you can still help.
Zvi
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Traditional standard build for early ZvP is 9ovie/12hatch as close to your minerals as possible then grab your gas as your drop your pool then move it into getting your Evo chamber so you are able to tech the +1 armor for your lings to have any sense of survivability, then move into teching for something with a little more power than lings.
If there is no early push a decent start is an oviepool 9ovie then with the next 200 min drop a pool then get your first batch of lings after you get to 11 drones. If done right the 3rd larvae should appear when you're ready for your first batch of lings. Good for an early scout with some force in case you encounter a rush and great for harass if there is and early expo. Hope it helps
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Well the best thing to do is get a really good scout about their timing, and think about placing a sunken at your expo to help the lings deal with it. Experiment with sunken placement and building simcity, learning off pro vods is really great for this cuz they basically do the work for you. Don't be afraid to pull drones to block the sunken if there are alot of zealots, since if it goes down its a pretty bad situation for you.
When this happens, be sure to save the rep and post it here so people can point out specifics.
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Calgary25986 Posts
On December 17 2009 09:19 Zvi wrote:
Maybe I just shouldn't pick up my nat when i see early pressure
I need a replay because this sentence shows that you don't really understand ZvP. You've already taken your natural far, FAR before you see any early pressure. So can you please attach a replay to show your exact problem?
Also, read the strategy forum guidelines.
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I think he means not vs FE
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The Protoss having a corsair out before you have mutas is normal in modern ZvP. If he is able to kill 2 or more ovies AND scout you, then your mutas are probably late.
You can either make a dozen speedlings and continue tech/drones,
or make a sunken at your natural and 3rd and use your initial lings. Both have their pros and cons. If you make the speedlings I'm pretty sure it's a little more expensive since you are getting the speed upgrade that you may not have wanted to get, but a) you will need to upgrade speed sooner or later anyways, and b) you can put a little more pressure on the protoss if he has a crap wall or something and you can deny scouting more easily.
But like Chill said, you might not have too great of an understanding on ZvP, so post a replay if you don't think what I said applies.
EDIT: If you do mean vs 1 base play, you should have said so, but yes his corsair will be even earlier. It's most common to get a hydra den before spire because of that. You shouldn't worry about taking a 3rd ZvP if he goes 1base play unless it's a protected 3rd like God's Garden or something. Good 1base PvZ can still put you in a good position if no one has an advantage mid game, so I wouldn't say you will be ahead if you survive, but you should almost never be behind if you reacted properly.
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Sounds like you are rushing to mutas on crappy economy. The game plan is not to tech to mutas for a win, that won't happen at higher level. Just survive the zealot attacks and make drones. Getting economy is always your first priority.
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I'm guessing that you mean against a 1-gate or 2-gate? In the case of a 2-gate, you aren't able to support a third hatchery at the normal timing of 13~ supply. Your hatcheries will all just collect larvae and you won't have enough stuff for anything. In this case, depending on when you scout the 2-gate, I find that the best reaction would be to either cancel the third hatchery or skip it altogether, and getting a gas immediately after you scout this. However, if you end up scouting the 2-gate really early, then don't put the gas down as soon as the normal 2-hatch timing is but a little bit later, so you have enough minerals for everything.
After this, you will just get lings and sunkens appropriately, but make sure to not get them too early or your economy will just be completely screwed. If you see him have 5 Zealots on top of his ramp, do NOT immediately make up to 16 lings or so. Instead, you can survive at that point by having maybe 8 lings and as you see him move out, make some additional Zerglings and possibly one sunken. It's extremely important to not overreact, but even so it's exactly the mistake 95% of the Zerg players make.
It is important to note that the Protoss actually can't keep up a constant Zealot pump off 2 gates and also tech properly while making probes continuously. This is why it's extremely important to note when the P starts teching. At this point you can pretty safely just pure drones and you should be able to react in time with sunkens and emergency lings the moment you see him move out.
As for teching, it entirely depends on what he is going for. Against a speedlot rush, mutas are good, as long as they aren't rushed off ~10 drones or whatever. Lurkers are also a good choice. Hydras might work better against a less unit-intensive build and well, they actually work against just about anything but like a 4-gate speedlot attack. Just react accordingly.
About 1-gate, it's about the same except you can drone a lot more heavily and, importantly, you need the gas a lot sooner. If you get a third hatchery early, you need to get it immediately afterwards, and in this case it might give you too much larvae once again. 2-hatch build is preferable again, since you need the gas in order to defend against the sair or whatever. Basically almost the same thing but you can power a lot more early on.
Take this advice with a grain of salt since I'm not amazing(Damn Avi-Love just wtfpowned me 3-0 >< .. oh right he's not toss, w/e), but it should work for at least D+.
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my friend does this odd thing where he goes 2 gate and PUMPS lots and probes until he has at least 12 lots, and what seems to be a very good econ to me, then this large amount of zealots gets to my base faster than normal.
i am stumped and i feel like this is a good place to ask for help.
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If he zealot you go for fast lurker or muta because there is nothing the opponent can do if they go straight up zealot
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k thanks thats what i kind of thought.
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If your opponent is doing a 2 gate rush as in 9/10 gate or something similar and you are doing a 12 hatch his first zealot should reach your natural around the time your hatchery is finishing. Your objective then is to get sunkens down as fast as possible while you try to keep the zealots busy with your lings. He will probably bring a few probes with his first zealot to block your creep colonies and you might need to bring a few drones yourself. Once you get 2 or so sunks down you should be able to hold of the initial push.
If you are going pool before hatchery you will have to rely more on lings. The attack with 3 or so zeals will happen before you can get your sunks up at your nat. You will have the army advantage in the very start but as the numbers increase on both sides the zealots will get more powerful. It is imperative that you finish your second hatchery. You wont be able to outproduce your opponents two gate zeals with 1 hatch zerglings.
I don't play zerg so I don't know the details from your POV. This is just from the eyes of a protoss player who likes 2 gating.
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Very helpful thank you DrainX
summary:
if you 12hatch, lay down at least 2 sunks while bringing more drones up to counter probes, along with the initial lings.
if you 9pool, use lots of lings. lots. then expand into nat. quickly. then win.
haha ok if this is at all right i think i get it.
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I think wat his describing is a +1 speed lot rush. Ya those are so hard to deal with.
Just need to switch to mutas as fast as possible while having a good simcity (or else his zealots are just going to focus ur hatch then even if u kill all his zealots u are still behind).
After ur mutas fend off the rush dont try to kill him with mutas switch to hydras because most ppl transition +1 zealot into 2 stargate sairs dt
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Well i have a doubt myself, what if he 2 gates and i go for 12 pool and know his going for a fast corsair? when should i get my gas? should i tech to muta? go hydra? extra info. He wont stop producing zealots so i can't just outproduce him with lings ty.
To the op i read somewhere if u go 12 hatch ur supposed to send 2 drones and lay 2 creep colonies, he'll attack one, when its almost dead u cancel it and place it again then defend with zerlings (because ur zlings will be later than the fight i mentioned. Then u'll have to scout what tech tree he's chosing like robo stargate or templar.
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Zvi, there is no need to sign your post, we can see your name at top of the post!
Also, read the forum guidelines plz.
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a good scout is always good no matter what, but the thing is i would just counter him with lings n hatch in his main or something, this really depends on situation.
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I think you talk about 2 gate toss play.
What's good about it is you may actually make tech of your choice - mutas, lurkers or hydras all work.
I personally use mainly 2 builds :
1. 2 hatch mutas - It's a low eco build, all you really need is like 12 drones alltogether, maybe some more later for second gas. But the point is to upgrade zerg speed(first 100 gas) and then tech lair immediately(second 100 gas). Meanwhile pump 100% speedlings in order to to be able to defend against speedlots and deny possible early expansion attempts. Once you build a bunch of mutas 6-9
harras him while remaking economy + expanding.
2. 3 hatch hydras. This time no speed for lings, and only make small amount of lings but more sunkens. Why sunkens? Because they save larva count to make better economy. But you won't need to pressure him so early. You want to make a timing 3 hatch hydra attack with 12+8+6 drones. Upgrades : first hydra speed, than lair and continue with hydra range + overlord speed and latter on lurker upgrade. Pressure the toss expansion and expand yourself into 5 hatch hydra lurk.
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Unless it's 9/9 gate, you should always get that nat. 1 sunken and a handful of lings easily deal with any early zealot pressure and since you have an overlord in his base, you can see if he's continuing production or teching. If he techs, pump drones and tech. If not, then get another sunken up and tech. Sometimes Protoss will go all in and send a lot probes as well, that's when you should just play safe and tech
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10 hatch = earlier (20s) + more lings, earlier (20s) hatch, and a little (3-5s) delayed eco, compared to 12 hatch.
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I think i'm not clear enough. Next replay, i'll save, but will still try to explain.
Opponent is going for 3gate zealots, without any FE. I scout the build with ovie, or sometimes with a drone (if i fear some cheese) and need to responde. On one hand i want to take my natural, but in games i did take it, i usually didn't have enough lings to deal with this, so couldn't use my lings to just block my ramp, and after my lings were killed i had runbys into my main, killing some drones but mostly losing my pool.
I just had a game i didnt take my nat, just hatched inside my main. I help off the zealots attacks pretty easily, but i didn't have enough vespene to get enough mutas to make it effective at all. Also, couldn't really harrass him cause he had sairs just as i was getting mutas.
btw - for when i get my replay , how do i post it ?
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EPT
