First off all, a little background about myself. For pretty much all of iCC's lifetime except this season, I have been D+. This season, playing solely PvZ, I am currently at 25-9 C- (3517) using exclusively variants of one build. 2 losses came from d/c, 1 from game external circumstances, and another 2 from silly building placement errors, so up to halfway through C-, there have been a total of 4 games where I was not beaten by myself.
I do not know how effective this build is against higher ranks; my suspicion is that it's not that effective. However, I believe this build is a good one for D level protosses to use, as it will practice both multitasking macro/micro, controlling multiple groups of units, practicing a build order, understanding a map, remembering timing, and reading the zerg.
Now, on to the build.
You will be doing a +1 speedlot pressure with corsair support. The exact b/o depends on what the zerg is doing. Generally however, you open up like a standard FE up to and including the starport/citadel. Then, you research +1 after citadel is down. When citadel finishes, you immediately research speed. After about 50 pop, your primary purpose for minerals is in the following order:
1)Corsairs IF he is going muta, otherwise zealots (if muta, you will need a couple cannon in each mineral lineas well ). 2)Gateways (up to 6 or 7, depending on the circumstances).
If you see that the zerg is going for lurkers, you put up a robo the moment his lurker begins to move to your choke, and then get obs and prepare to break it. However, if you notice that he is not supporting the lurkers with lings, and your corsair spots an open 3rd base, feel free to run by with a control group of speedlots and head straight for his third.
The rest of the game will involve splitting up your forces into multiple groups and hitting every unguarded base at once, or combining two groups to take down the sunkens at one guarded base. The moment his lurkers reposition and burrow to protect a base however, you split up again: if you have two control groups at the lurker'd position, send the groups to opposing bases, that is, bases that are in completely different directions from the current base. This will generally confuse the hell out of a D level zerg, and they will have trouble keeping up because this form of multitasking for protoss is FAR easier than the equivalent defense for zerg if you hit them at the right time.
DON'T FORGET TO MACRO WHILE THIS IS GOING ON!!
Also, your corsairs should be hunting down his overlords, and you should never stop making corsairs; soon, he will be constantly supply capped at a low cap, for making lurkers = less hydras, and hydra micro vs zealots is far more difficult than you telling your zealots to a-move the hydras while controlling a few zealots to kill the zerg's drones. Eventually, this economic advantage will help you tremendously.
Let's go into more detail on a specific map, to illustrate some timing points and map information.
Consider Longinus. Suppose the zerg spawns at 6 and you at 3 (due to the map layout, it doesn't matter where you two spawn; it's just a matter of rotating the map) + Show Spoiler [picture] +
Now, you are executing a standard FE. Suppose you scout the zerg in the first location you go to. Then, you react accordingly, no problem. Suppose you don't. Then clearly you put down cannons at 13 in case he went 9pool or something faster. Assuming that you scout the zerg at the second location you go to, and upon reaching his natural you do NOT see a hatchery, you can be sure that he is going 9 pool or faster. If the hatcery is around 300 hp (red hp), cancel your cannons now, and cut probes at 14 or 15 depending on how good your split and probe production was, and put down a Nexus. You will be able to tell which pop to put down the nexus because if your 14th probe finishes and you are one return wave of minerals from having 400 minerals, then you wait. From here you proceed to make your cannon, gateway, etc.
At this point you have your base nice and blocked up. If the zerg is going ling all-in, then you can laugh. If the zerg is going hydra all-in (hopefully your probe lived), then you have two choices. If you are not confident, put up cannons and deviate to some other build. If you are a cocky bastard, put down 3 gateways and a citadel immediately after your corsair or probe scouts the build, and start +1 if you haven't already. Do not build probes during this period: your goal is to get your ups going and get gateways ready for mass production. You will have to put down 2 or 3 cannons to help hold the front while your speed, +1, and zealot numbers build up. When you push out is really dependent on his hydra numbers, but after some practice you will know when you are safe to go (don't let him get lurkers before you push, or you're fucked).
Now suppose he is going for a standard macro (non muta) build. Perfect. D zergs are terrible at dealing with your build when they go macro.
The zerg will put his third at one of two places, marked by the yellow. + Show Spoiler +
. Usually, the mineral only is chosen. Some may choose the double gas expansion. Your job is a lot easier if it's the min only.
Clearly there is only one attack route for you if he took the gas expansion. If he took the min only, there are two routes: + Show Spoiler +
Generally, at D level the sim city the zerg puts down (if any) will not be very good. His forces and buildings will usually be aligned to deal with one of these attack routes. It's up to you to spot with your corsairs which side is weaker. Of course, you attack from the weaker side.
If however, he has many sunkens at his 3rd, but your corsairs spot that his natural is relatively open (maybe 1 or 2 sunkens, if any, and no sim city at the choke), then move along the red attack path and then hug the cliff straight into his natural.
REMEMBER you should be macroing constantly this entire time.
The moment the sunkens go down in the base you attacked, attack his mineral line there. When the drones run, make every zealot hit the primary hatchery in his natural. When reinforcements come for zerg, run into his main. Supposing that you have 6 to 7 gates, you should have another control group of zealots waiting in your natural by the time reinforcements of his come to aid his base. Send them to his third (if you hit his nat first), or his nat (if you hit his 3rd first) and kill the sunkens there, and then the mineral line there as well as the hatchery. Of course, if your first attack force is about to die, then reinforce them first, but with minimal micro they should do well if you attacked at the right time.
It is highly likely his overlords are clumped wherever his hydras were before you forced him to bring them to you. If you've been building corsairs nonstop, welcome to overlord slaughter. Even if you haven't and you only have a couple, send them to the overlords and begin killing them (and of course start building them again!). You want to keep his pop ceiling as low as possible.
Do not fear his D level lurkers if he has any. The moment you kill 80% of the zerglings/hydras, run past his lurkers and go to another base. Using this build you will very quickly have 3 control groups of zealots. 3 groups + 3 zerg bases = <3. Take them all. At the same time. Now!
Be wary; he may have taken a fourth base in desperation! Have one corsair scout around the map for this, and when you find it, he will be disheartened!
He won't be able to do anything to you because his multitask is much harder, and you have cannons in your nice and small Longinus chokepoint.
Here's a few reps of me doing this build. Note that in one rep I forgot +1 (oops ^^). It's not perfect of course, so watch for places where you could improve on the build (and see how low level zergs react!).
I should add as an addendum that this is probably the easiest build for new people to learn, rather than sair reaver or getting just the right army composition. It lets you practice multitask without making each unit of tasking too deep. Consider it a first stepping stone.
seems pretty good. however, theres one question u have forgotten to answer: what if he does a timing speed-hydra atk right when ur citadel/star are about to finish? 1 team of hydras can take 2 cannons easily. what do u do ?
On November 17 2009 09:54 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: seems pretty good. however, theres one question u have forgotten to answer: what if he does a timing speed-hydra atk right when ur citadel/star are about to finish? 1 team of hydras can take 2 cannons easily. what do u do ?
Don't let your probe die early is what you do. Not to mention, you don't stop producing zealots from the moment your first gate goes up, so if necessary you can dance them back and force while building more cannons, biding some time (if you failed with the probe). There really shouldn't be that much time between your probe dying and your corsair coming out.
On November 17 2009 09:54 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: seems pretty good. however, theres one question u have forgotten to answer: what if he does a timing speed-hydra atk right when ur citadel/star are about to finish? 1 team of hydras can take 2 cannons easily. what do u do ?
well that's true vs. all protoss builds basically. if you hit that timing it's hard to defend unless the probe scouted it.
I just wanted to say that you're really basing this build on D players inability to make good/decent sim citys which is not true in all cases, lets take desti as a example. if you expand left from bottom pos. it's very easy to just throw up a hydraden and a hatch/evo to wall it off with 1-3 sunkens behind it, by that also stopping these kinds of attacks or atleast holding them off.
I mean isnt this guide based more on how easy a 3rd/4th is to defend for the zerg more then rushing distance?
On November 17 2009 09:54 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: seems pretty good. however, theres one question u have forgotten to answer: what if he does a timing speed-hydra atk right when ur citadel/star are about to finish? 1 team of hydras can take 2 cannons easily. what do u do ?
well that's true vs. all protoss builds basically. if you hit that timing it's hard to defend unless the probe scouted it.
I just wanted to say that you're really basing this build on D players inability to make good/decent sim citys which is not true in all cases, lets take desti as a example. if you expand left from bottom pos. it's very easy to just throw up a hydraden and a hatch/evo to wall it off with 1-3 sunkens behind it, by that also stopping these kinds of attacks or atleast holding them off.
I mean isnt this guide based more on how easy a 3rd/4th is to defend for the zerg more then rushing distance?
Desti's bridges into the natural is a bit annoying, since the entire point of this build is that most multitasking is 10% positioning and 90% a-move, which unfortunately causes a backlog on Desti. And yes, the fact that there is only one attack angle into the 3rd also hurts, so I suppose your point about how easy the 3rd/4th (and of course the nat) are to defend being the overwhelming factor is true.
Although, even with decent zerg sim cities, it is not difficult to run them over with pure macro just because of the difference in difficulty of mechanics that seem to be present at D -> low C.
On November 18 2009 12:27 MrHickoryHam54 wrote: ok so if the scouting probe dies, there is no way to detect the timing atk and u are therefore screwed?
i think u could probly camp 2 lots in their choke to detect movement ? something like that?
No you're not screwed, because this build does not deviate from normal FE at all until citadel. It is no more difficult to defend against hydra bust with this build than it is with normal FE, in fact possibly easier since you will have many gateways up early, with early legs and +1. This plus the cannons you put down will save you, and eventually you will be able to bust out. There are also tricks to scout him again. Say you see that your scouting probe is about to die. Take a probe and hide it somewhere random on the map, and wait until his zerglings should have left his base already. Then run that probe into his base. Something that is apparently harder at D level to do is to second out 1 or 2 probes with a zealot to cause his zerglings to split up, and then get a probe through to his base, but the former method is probably safer at D level.
And no, you can't camp 2 lots in their choke. They're not going to be out early enough in an FE build to do that.
However, note that if he attempts to hydra bust you and fails, you should expect both lurkers and mutas. Lurkers are not difficult, you can run circles around them initially and harass while you put up a robo, and if you continue to pump corsairs, you can handle the mutas as well. Of course at this point it is also good to get templar tech and morph some archons/ht if he did indeed do a hydra bust, because it is pretty effective against the types of things that will be thrown at you post-hydra break.
Your guide doesn't say much about a zerg who goes for all mutalisks. But wouldn't the zerg easily be able to take potshots at your lots, and he'll have scourge around for your sairs?
And I haven't figured this out yet, but how do you determine if a zerg is going lurker with your first probe? Or your first sair?
i just watched the replays. im going to try it out some games. I think its good.. but muta builds will probably be a good counter for this.. mutas delay attack.. switch to lurk contain
ill give you my impressions later. Thanks for this!
On November 18 2009 13:31 XCLuSive wrote: Hmm.. coming from a D- noob..
Your guide doesn't say much about a zerg who goes for all mutalisks. But wouldn't the zerg easily be able to take potshots at your lots, and he'll have scourge around for your sairs?
And I haven't figured this out yet, but how do you determine if a zerg is going lurker with your first probe? Or your first sair?
If the zerg goes straight to muta, generally you will have issues yes. You then have two options, either 1) deviate to some other build, since your first corsair will scout this fact, and you will not have deeply committed to the build yet.
or
Go ahead with the mass gates, with the usual cannons at your min lines to help your sairs. When you get about a control group, start killing all his ground units. His mutas will run back. Your sairs should avoid his mutas / scourge until you have ~8. Try to kill loose overlords, even if they are in his base. You will see his mutas changing course from your zeals to your sairs the moment he does so, so you can run your sairs away back to your base at this point. Note that you MUST run in and out, as the entire point is to be annoying on many fronts.
At D levels, you will be able to kill every drone of his without difficulty. Zerg ground army in vicinity dead? Cool! Target drones! This is just a strange matter of life. However, I recommend you don't try this if he is indeed going muta/scourge into lurker, and take option 1 instead.
Also, you may find it useful to get early templar archives if you go ahead with the mass zeals against muta, and get archons. With this build you will have a lot of excess gas on 2 base if you don't cut gas, so you will have plenty of reserves to pop out 2 rounds of templars production immediately.
EDIT: just noticed the lurker question. You probably won't see the lurker until your first sair because your probe should have died (if he can't kill a probe with hydras he is bad), but that's fine. If he goes immediately to lurker, he is going to sacrifice some hydra and resources for more hydras / hydra upgrades, so his actual mobile army will be weaker. I believe in the replay against ms291052 (or ms2zerg, one of his accounts), he researched lurker immediately after lair, before any hydra ups. You can just run around with your +1 speedlots harassing bases, the moment the lurkers burrow, you leave that base. When your second group of zealots arrives, you can now hit 2 bases. If the lurkers split up, their power decreases dramatically. Meanwhile, the zerg will have an even harder time microing, because his hydras have no ups whatsoever at the start of your harass. This will aid you even more, because at lower levels the maximum multitask of the zerg is low enough that this will severely hurt them.
Note that you don't really have to micro each zealot per se. Just have them A-move in the general area of the hydras. You can use the following as your thought pattern, supposing you have 2 groups of zealots:
1) Check group 1: Many hydras? If dangerous amount, pull back. Lurkers burrowed? If so, pull back. 2) Check group 2: Same conditions. 3) Watch for minimap/sound signalling that units have been produced, and go back to your gateway city to produce another round, and send your newly produced units to the battle. It is not necessary to rally them near the opponent's base, but you can if you want. Remember to hotkey each group up to 12 before you begin another group, as this will simplify your job a lot.
When you pull zealots back, if the conditions mentioned above are relevant, DO NOT pull them back into the other group. You want to pull back to a direction of the map that is as far away from that group as possible. When the bulk of his forces leave to go deal with your other group, kill any stragglers, and then rush the formerly retreating group back to the base they were originally attacking. The next group that sees the zerg army will do the exact same if it cannot kill the non-lurker army, and rinse and repeat, go through macro cycle, etc.
edit: DancerS (Aussie protoss, around C level) uses a similar style to this, splitting up and being hyper aggressive with the intent of throwing off the zerg alot.
On November 18 2009 14:06 Camlito wrote: Want to try this vs me? I'm X-EdgE
edit: DancerS (Aussie protoss, around C level) uses a similar style to this, splitting up and being hyper aggressive with the intent of throwing off the zerg alot.
Goddamit I did not know about the double gas expo at top middle of Longinus that game -_-. Assuming you were trapped on 3 bases = bad.
Granted my build that game actually was very sloppy and not even a pressure build, and your sneaky +1 air carapace was pretty good. Come on though, I can't advertise that I'll just do the build and have you expect it . I'll have to throw it in the middle of other gay pleasantries!
On November 18 2009 14:06 Camlito wrote: Want to try this vs me? I'm X-EdgE
edit: DancerS (Aussie protoss, around C level) uses a similar style to this, splitting up and being hyper aggressive with the intent of throwing off the zerg alot.
Goddamit I did not know about the double gas expo at top middle of Longinus that game -_-. Assuming you were trapped on 3 bases = bad.
Granted my build that game actually was very sloppy and not even a pressure build, and your sneaky +1 air carapace was pretty good. Come on though, I can't advertise that I'll just do the build and have you expect it . I'll have to throw it in the middle of other gay pleasantries!
Oh, you did this build that game? Hahaha didn't know that.
We have had many games on HB/Desti aswell though, that's why i was asking to play you and this build more. Didn't know you had already tried it ;p.
Nah it wasn't this build. It was when I was experimenting with what units would work best for immediate aggression. I believe I had a lot of goons that game, and templars, which is definitely not this build XD
Should really focus on securing a 3rd while you zeal blitzkreg. When Z goes muta make sure you have enough cannons and keep making sairs. You can run your speedzeals around to buy time if you are being pressured by the mutas directly as they expand at this time. Once you get 5-6 sair zerg air is just completly worthless and as long as you get cannons up at your 3rd your army should be able to easily protect your expansion. Always go for templar tech vs Z. It's affordable and if you just mass zeal without it its basically all in for no reason.
If Zerg sim cities and you cant attack then save your guys, expand and start working on a good army composition, get your robo up for shuttle harass + obs. Once you have goons/storm/archons to compliment your beefy zealots Z should still be on lair units and this is when you have the biggest advantage. At this point your army should be pretty untouchable. Expand more and just keep checks on all the expos, If you kept zerg on 3 bases then you should have a big lead when he gets hive up, just cover your ass vs drops / Z nexus hunting and macro ftw.
Agreed with MiniRoman. I really should have been getting templar tech faster, since I had way too much gas in all the games, and yet was often pinched for minerals.
this is the build to get started with but from my experience, ive had more people do 2 hatch lurk contain into some variation of the 5 hatch hydra than reg 3 spire into 5 den. i play at D/D+ level. I feel that D/D+ players notice DTs less as they have less multi task. if i just slip in to the base(no sunken/overlord or other units just bllocking the choke) then i get at least 5 drone kills.Id say this is more to get from D- to D
On November 18 2009 15:28 MiniRoman wrote: Should really focus on securing a 3rd while you zeal blitzkreg. When Z goes muta make sure you have enough cannons and keep making sairs. You can run your speedzeals around to buy time if you are being pressured by the mutas directly as they expand at this time. Once you get 5-6 sair zerg air is just completly worthless and as long as you get cannons up at your 3rd your army should be able to easily protect your expansion. Always go for templar tech vs Z. It's affordable and if you just mass zeal without it its basically all in for no reason.
If Zerg sim cities and you cant attack then save your guys, expand and start working on a good army composition, get your robo up for shuttle harass + obs. Once you have goons/storm/archons to compliment your beefy zealots Z should still be on lair units and this is when you have the biggest advantage. At this point your army should be pretty untouchable. Expand more and just keep checks on all the expos, If you kept zerg on 3 bases then you should have a big lead when he gets hive up, just cover your ass vs drops / Z nexus hunting and macro ftw.
The only problem with the way that this guy is proposing the +1 Speedlot attack is that he wants 6 freaking Gates pumping out Zealots nonstop and rolling over the guy in the midgame. A normal +1 Speedlot goes off of 4 Gates max (including the one at the natural) and saves up that money for a faster expansion. The Zealots in that case are not meant to be game ending, but rather as a stall for you to get a 3rd expansion up since your Zealots are basically taking map control for you.
The third is going to be extremely delayed in this case because you're going Zealots + Mass sairs. If you're getting mass corsairs in addition to the 6 gate Zealots, it's pretty much all in. I would refer you to a lot of JangBi's PvZs where he went for exactly this kind of strategy, except he did a +1 Speedlot rush followed by 2 Stargate Sair/DT. Example game that never got the 2 Stargate Sair/DT part, but you could tell he was going for it because of the 2 Stargates and lack of a third expo. Sorry for not finding a better example, but this game was still fresh in my mind due to epic fail from a certain player.
this build seemed good at the very beginning, and i might be able to pull this build off once or twice, but it seems very suseptible to many builds ie. anything with mass mutas or mass lurkers with support... especially with the late templar archives this seems more of a rush/all in build because of the really late 3rd expansion and counters. once they set up a contain with lurkers or map control with muta, its going to be impossible to expand/win.
Not that I don't appreciate the effort, but how is this any different from the build NonY laddered with on bluestorm in the previous TSL? Because I guess most have seen those already.
On November 18 2009 23:24 monkxly wrote: Hmm well speaking from z's point of view, here are a list of counters for it
3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra with 2 sunkens (standard build for most z's) Hydra production at 42 supply 3 hatch spire 5 hatch muta 3 hatch muta 3 hatch spire 5 hatch lurker 3 hatch lurker
O.o
First of all, for the D->C- level mechanics, assuming both that you opponent and you have approximately equivalent grasps of your build,
1) 3hatch spire -> 5hatch hydra with 2 sunkens will not counter this. There is a timing where you can break his 3rd. 2) 3 hatch spire 5 hatch muta you will see coming and you can change build 3) 3 hatch muta you will also see and can change build like above, as your build will not have deviated much from the normal FE yet. 4) 3 hatch spire -> 5 hatch lurker will not counter this build at D+->C- level. You can run circles around the lurker and go wherever they are not. 5) 3 hatch lurker is more annoying, especially if they set up a contain with ling support, and you forget to get obs the moment you see lurkers morphing. However, with this build you will have excessive gas, so use it to get archons, and at D+->C- level you will be able to roll his contain the moment obs+archon pops out.
On November 19 2009 00:32 Adeny wrote: Not that I don't appreciate the effort, but how is this any different from the build NonY laddered with on bluestorm in the previous TSL? Because I guess most have seen those already.
I haven't seen this reps actually or heard of the build he used, but I'll go check that out.
On November 18 2009 23:44 Misder wrote: this build seemed good at the very beginning, and i might be able to pull this build off once or twice, but it seems very suseptible to many builds ie. anything with mass mutas or mass lurkers with support... especially with the late templar archives this seems more of a rush/all in build because of the really late 3rd expansion and counters. once they set up a contain with lurkers or map control with muta, its going to be impossible to expand/win.
You can time the templar archives for whenever you want. If he goes pure hydra, don't bother getting it earlier. If he goes lurker ling contain, get it a bit earlier and bust it fast with zeal archon. It's also not all-in, because your economy is not screwed, and even if you find that his base is well defended and impenetrable (pretty much doesn't happen at D->C-) then you can immediately expand because you have a HUGE army, which will be able to prevent any further expansions if you scout for them.
On November 18 2009 15:48 Waffles wrote: this is the build to get started with but from my experience, ive had more people do 2 hatch lurk contain into some variation of the 5 hatch hydra than reg 3 spire into 5 den. i play at D/D+ level. I feel that D/D+ players notice DTs less as they have less multi task. if i just slip in to the base(no sunken/overlord or other units just bllocking the choke) then i get at least 5 drone kills.Id say this is more to get from D- to D
2 hatch lurk is no problem. DTs are useful, yes, but most of the time I see people go for DT harass, they overemphasize watching the DT, and therefore their available multitask for elsewhere drops, and their macro slips. More often than not I have to be harassing with my army while DT dropping / run into expansions without spores that my corsairs just cleared in order for the DT harass to succeed, as otherwise their bases are usually guarded. I'd suspect that doing this would hurt D+ macro more than the build I mentioned, but by all means use DTs when appropriate.
Well the Nony replays appear to be broken in BW, but according to BWchart it would appear that he did a +1 speed into templar without stargate, which is also a valid build and actually allows your first push to come faster, but if the zerg were to go muta instead I find that stargateless builds are weaker for the D level, as you will have no corsair help for dealing with mutas.
haha yeah the part where you mention that multitask for zerg is way harder for protoss is true. All protoss need is 1a2a3a into different bases and zerg has to burrow lurkers make sunkens and flank with lings xD
I do believe mass muta/scourge is the correct counter as it offers the mobility to deal with your zealots. Some good sunk/simCity is also good option
there was a recent savior game where he does the most beautiful sim city ever... I'll see if I can find it
On November 20 2009 11:46 evanthebouncy! wrote: haha yeah the part where you mention that multitask for zerg is way harder for protoss is true. All protoss need is 1a2a3a into different bases and zerg has to burrow lurkers make sunkens and flank with lings xD
I do believe mass muta/scourge is the correct counter as it offers the mobility to deal with your zealots. Some good sunk/simCity is also good option
there was a recent savior game where he does the most beautiful sim city ever... I'll see if I can find it
But generally when you attack first, either his natural or 3rd has only one sunken, and you go to that base.
It's pretty amazing how little micro +1 zealots take against unupgraded zerg units, even lurkers. It's also good that if the zerg goes mass muta/scourge to counter you, first low level zergs have bad micro. All you have to do is get corsairs and templars and 1a2a3a after you get enough units.
There's just so many ways to make the zerg's job harder than your job, and it makes for easy wins at low level.
EPT![[image loading]](http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2919/longinusstartpositions.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/670/zergexpansions.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2222/attackroutes.jpg)
. I'll have to throw it in the middle of other gay pleasantries!
