I'm only D level player, and what recently concerned me on ICCup was that annoying Gas Steal in TvP. I tried to figure out how to counter Protoss who does this tactics to me, especially since my in-game reactions are quite poor and he can always cancel his Assimilator to replace it with new one instantly.
A spark of inspiration came from this game:
Yes, Magikarp Terran lost this game, but I noticed he went Gas before Rax. So I wondered, since both TvT and TvP are mostly about teching up quickly, why not to use this little build switch against notorious Gas stealers? It's like 50% of D-Tosses who try it, and Gas first eliminates early trouble unless he sends Probe VERY early.
Now the problem was how to balance Mineral/Gas count you have in bank to avoid stockpiling it while your Barracks are still being built. So instead of having 3 SCVs on Gas immediately, I went for 2 Gas workers from the moment Refinery is up. Turns out you lose only like 4-5 seconds when your money is above 200/100 and Barracks are not up yet.
Generally, your Factory will be delayed a little bit, but isn't that much better than struggling for ages to clear your Vespene node?
Hiya went roughly like this:
8 Depot 10 Refinery 11 Rax, send 2 more SCVs to Gas 14 Depot 15 Factory, 2 Marines immediately 19 2 Starports
My anti-Toss adaptation goes:
9 Depot 10 Refinery 12 Rax, send second SCV to Gas 16 Marine 16 Depot 17 Factory...
And if hes proxy 2 gate rushing you, you kinda die. just make the refinery when you see the probe getting into your base, then take the scv off and send it back to mining till its actually time to finish the refinery. The toss will also be set back a bit due to sending such an early probe
I´m a nooby D too, but I sometimes finish my wall before the probe gets to scout at all, your first tank will come a bit later than the goon pressure if you don´t cut SCVs. Good thing about this is that the protoss cant scout your build. Like 9 depot 11 rax 12-14ish depot 13-14ish refinery, I usually don´t plan further than the first rax haha Sometimes I send 10-11 scout and if it doesn´t encounter a probe I can put the refinery down first. Or then I just abort one scv and throw the refinery down when the probe is coming, however then the gayest tosses do mannerpylons or other shit anyway
I think that instead of being preventive, it's better to learn the proper reactions to a gas steal. What if the toss doesn't try to steal your gas, but instead goes for an agressive build such as 10/15 gate, the delayed factory would really hurt you in cases like these, especially on rampless maps.
at D level, if it helps you concentrate on your game more, I say do whatever works best for you. the few seconds delay in your factory going up isn't a big deal if it keeps you in the game past where you would be otherwise. but i would say this depends on how easy it is to wall off on a map too though. if you can wall off with 1 supply depot/barracks, go the barracks first build order unless its an unusually fast scout.
alternatively, you could practice other ways to deal with it that are in a thread somewhere on TL.
try it on 2 player map against probe/zealot rush and you can gg when you notice the first zealot showing up. It's from very hard to almost impossible to defend it with non-delayed rax, so u expect defending it with delayed rax?
on two player maps it's a good idea to wall or 10/10 or 11/11
if you gas first and they 2 gate proxy, or even 2 gate in the main, the games over. Who said it was very hard to impossible to defend zealot probe with standard rax timing is just silly though.
But don't do what you're suggesting. Take it from someone who did actually do what you proposed for a while and don't do it.
One similiar thing you can do, if you so choose, is to go 12/12 and just build the refinery as soon as you see the probe (spam boxes in the place of the screen the probe will appear, it lets you see it sooner) then take the scv off building the refinery and get your rax at 12 as normal, putting the scv back on the refinery. This doesn't delay your factory at all and makes you safe to gas stealing. Your marine will be a little later thought so what you gonna do?
d'fuck? it's just 2port wraiths... you need the early gas to afford the build. Has nothing to do with "anti gas steal" build. edit...Generally you react rather than prepare for a gas steal, which only happens on 2player maps. If a P really wants a gas steal, you as T really can't do much to prevent it.
On November 08 2009 22:52 XsebT wrote: d'fuck? it's just 2port wraiths... you need the early gas to afford the build. Has nothing to do with "anti gas steal" build.
OP is rather oddly using a TvT to try and discuss TvP strategy. Just go with it man!
Oh and note to OP, in TvT, gas before rax gives you I think 100 (150?) extra gas, which is enough to get siege AND cloak with fact port and lets you get out other tech faster with other builds. Sorry, I'm being vague, my TvT still sucks
I prefer to just go 9 Supply 10 Rax at choke, and if I see a Probe come out quickly, I just cancel the SCV that's currently queued in my CC and start the Refinery for a few seconds, and then proceed as normal.
On November 08 2009 23:51 scintilliaSD wrote: I prefer to just go 9 Supply 10 Rax at choke, and if I see a Probe come out quickly, I just cancel the SCV that's currently queued in my CC and start the Refinery for a few seconds, and then proceed as normal.
Or you can save up to 11 rax 11 gas and if there's a probe that comes, you'd have enough minerals to start the gas anyway.
go FD (fake double) 8 suply depot 10 refinery/rax (hold scvs momentarily) constant marine production at 88 gas stop mining gas with 2 scvs factory - machine shop - mines depot cc push out with 2 tanks + vulture reinforcement
C- Terran here. I experimented with gas before barracks for a while and even though you get your first tank out sooner, you're really at an economical disadvantage. Best response is to cancel the scv in your cc and build the gas as soon as you see the probe. As Terran doesn't need to scout too early, you can send your scouting scv at gas steal timing to see the probe coming miles in advance. In a fair number of games I've even been able to block the scouting probe for long enough to build my gas at normal timing (through micro).
OK, thank you guys for your suggestions. It seems that cancelling SCV + getting Refinery after Probe comes is considerably better... OK, I'll try to pimp this strategy, right now I really suck at executing it.
I sometimes dont even bother with wall for this reason. if they send early probe, cut scv and gas at 10, once finished leave 2 on gas (use descretion on when to add/remove scv on/off gas) and pump rines. bunk around cc and start fact if they cheesing since the bunk will negate the zeals and protect ur fact if u place it correctly. Watch for dt and dont die to goon pressure
If you plan to go for 11 rax 11 gas, don't put your rax at 150 minerals. Because you lose mining time, and because if probe approach you don't have 100 minerals anymore to start refinery.
You really want to have both exactly at the sale time, so you have exactly 100 gas when rax finishes. That means you wait till you have 220 minerals and put both rax and gas.
If you see a probe approaching, build your refinery, and cancel scv (not refinery), put it back to minerals, and start building refinery again when you start your rax.
If you are really paranoid, or have slow reflexes, do it anyway: when you have 100 minerals, build ref and cancel the scv. That way your gas never get stolen.
Go 11/11 gas/rax and if you see the early probe come in before you have the 250 simply begin construction of the refinery, then instantly take the SCV off it and use that to chase the probe away. When you reach 250 mins start your barracks and put another SCV on the refinery, virtually 0 money lost and no way he can steal your gas. I do this every game and the results are very satisfying.
Edit:Yeah, pretty much what Biff The Understudy said.
On November 08 2009 21:42 foppa wrote: 10 depot 10 rax 10 gas yo
This.
And you get early tank...voila! Annnnd if he send an agressive probe that usually means he will do somewhat agressive build or proxy, so your early tank is win-win.
This game is brilliant by Hiya, but fantasy sees through it. He goes gas before rax, which is un-necessary, and then proceeds to mine as fast as possible, building up gas. When fantasy scouts, he pulls 2 scvs off gas at the right timing to make fantasy assume 1 fact expand, then he proceeds to use the built up gas to go 2 port wraith. It's a high-level feint, not a way to prevent gas steal
On November 08 2009 21:44 Sc2ggRise wrote: at D level, if it helps you concentrate on your game more, I say do whatever works best for you. the few seconds delay in your factory going up isn't a big deal if it keeps you in the game past where you would be otherwise. but i would say this depends on how easy it is to wall off on a map too though. if you can wall off with 1 supply depot/barracks, go the barracks first build order unless its an unusually fast scout.
alternatively, you could practice other ways to deal with it that are in a thread somewhere on TL.
i disagree..why practice what isn't the most efficient?
if you wall you should see the probe come in and can build the gas really quickly then cancel the scv building it and then resume building it when its time.
if they're sneaky and send a really early probe scout them and either FE with a bunker (and repair it if he gets ranged goons. a good example is a game flash played on blue storm can't remember who or when though) or if they 2 gate just build more rax.
Start your Refienery at ten and then press cancel on the SCV. The Refinery itself doesn't cancel and you can move the worker back to mining until you hit 12 supply and then start building it up again.
EDIT I assert that this is a really fucking good idea.
On November 08 2009 21:44 Sc2ggRise wrote: at D level, if it helps you concentrate on your game more, I say do whatever works best for you. the few seconds delay in your factory going up isn't a big deal if it keeps you in the game past where you would be otherwise. but i would say this depends on how easy it is to wall off on a map too though. if you can wall off with 1 supply depot/barracks, go the barracks first build order unless its an unusually fast scout.
alternatively, you could practice other ways to deal with it that are in a thread somewhere on TL.
yea i think rise really hits the point here. to start, do whatever makes you comfortable, but in terms of this fast gas build
1. make sure that your opponent is not bisu. 5 psi scout probe into 2 gate proxy is not what u want to be facing here.
2. 4 player map, NOT 2 or 3 player. u want all the luck u can get (in terms of how fast ur opp scouts you)
3. walling helps a lot
4. test this stuff out. if you find that this is imba, then maybe u can get an awesome nickname on TL for yourself like "Gas Terran" or "Fast Gas Man". if you find that this sucks like hell, then u can learn from it and move on.
EPT
Magikarp Terran lost this game, but I noticed he went Gas before Rax. So I wondered, since both TvT and TvP are mostly about teching up quickly, why not to use this little build switch against notorious Gas stealers? It's like 50% of D-Tosses who try it, and Gas first eliminates early trouble unless he sends Probe VERY early.
haha
