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On October 19 2009 03:39 Fontong wrote:
Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively.
If you're so high and might to call a pro-gamer retarded why aren't you pro?
Anyway i think this is a pretty interesting game, but the strong point of this tactic is catching the zerg off guard, it's just completely unexpected, and imo what we need is something to break standards, it makes for very interesting games!
On another note, that intro is looking promising, anyone happen to know the song used in it?
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I can't wait to see the thread when a Protoss uses a heavy DA/Archon army.
As to the OP, it was a pretty stupid build from Backho imho. Calm didn't know what was coming until later which is probably why he wasn't that prepared. Also from what a friend told me, Backho's wall in is pretty much how a Protoss walls in when he plans to use a reaver/sair army (no space for large units to move out) so that just MAY have thrown Calm off guard too.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Wait, don't you builds mass scouts vs zerg?
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On October 19 2009 11:15 BluzMan wrote:
Wait, don't you builds mass scouts vs zerg?
Genius
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I still think it was pretty good, but otherwise a one time use build (kinda like the fantasy build) This build is easily countered by lurkers OR mutalisks. The reason why it worked was (1) Ninja DT, and (2) a bit of panicking by Calm; he shoulda morphed like 4/5 hydras to lurkers, or just mad a few mutalisks earlier.
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yeah this win was more luck than anything
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Backho got so lucky with this build. If Calm remained Calm (LOL), he can easily defended this with Hydra/Lurker. GG though.
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Backho's win wasn't primarily based on luck, but this isn't a good build to use except as a one-shot deal. This is similar to a toned down version of vulture harass in TvP. Of course, vultures are much better, but the goal of this build is similar-to make the opponent lose their cool and expose themselves.
Yes, if Calm remained calm he would've won, but that's exactly what the build is trying to exploit.
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PvZ Backho zealot/dark templar strategy
LOL
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Response to mass scouts vs zerg
I actually believe a corsair->scout tech with speed switch with dts is a good idea. Because once ovies get speed, its pretty hard for sairs to take down ovie quickly enough to avoid a counter(scourge and hydra damage). You can micro 8 or 9 scouts to take out ovies in 1 hit then run and fight scourge kinda like vulture micro,harass undefended expos, and harass lone hydras or small groups of lings.
I guess eventually zerg will catch on and build spores in every base to defend against dts + scouts. But then you can fake them out with 1 scout and make them waste resources.
Just a theory, applaud my brilliance or call me a retard, discuss
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Hey! You can micro scouts against scourge with the speed upgrade.
Sucks that they're so expensive and take too long too build.
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On October 19 2009 14:26 lone_hydra wrote:
Response to mass scouts vs zerg
I actually believe a corsair->scout tech with speed switch with dts is a good idea. Because once ovies get speed, its pretty hard for sairs to take down ovie quickly enough to avoid a counter(scourge and hydra damage). You can micro 8 or 9 scouts to take out ovies in 1 hit then run and fight scourge kinda like vulture micro,harass undefended expos, and harass lone hydras or small groups of lings.
I guess eventually zerg will catch on and build spores in every base to defend against dts + scouts. But then you can fake them out with 1 scout and make them waste resources.
Just a theory, applaud my brilliance or call me a retard, discuss
zerg will make a lot of hydras, which totally own scouts, to protect their overlords. maybe they'll advance a little slower to ensure overlord safety. but with protoss using so much $ on scouts + scout upgs, they'll have no $ for a ground army
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Thats where the dts come in. Scouts have range 4 and alot of shield. With good micro it is possible in theory to take out ovies with small damages to scouts (muta vs marine micro kinda thing). Lets see zerg build so many hydras while being supply blocked. Scouts destroy detection, dts defend, harass, or maybe even map control?
I'm a zerg main and I rarely use toss, so there may be many logical gaps as fps pointed out, but im just trying to contribute to the new Pvz revolution.
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One thing to note is that Calm was incredibly greedy and really skimped on sunkens. If DTs get used again, all Calm needs to do is put a sunken at each base with an ovie. Insta-win.
On October 19 2009 08:56 MaD.pYrO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 03:39 Fontong wrote:
Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively. If you're so high and might to call a pro-gamer retarded why aren't you pro?
I just want to say as much as I respect and am in awe of progamers' skills, they aren't the best decision-makers around. People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
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Katowice25012 Posts
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Calm made a mistake of letting dts just walk into his base. Zealot dark templar is interesting because once you manage to sneak a dt into their base, then you just need to attack with your zealots to distract them while your dt is racking up drone kills. As everyone knows, losing drones is huge for a zerg player since their production will be halted for a while. But a normal player usually won't allow dt to just walk right by. Its just that backho is so awesome.
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United States2186 Posts
On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote:
People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
this widespread misconception is hilarious yet annoying.
Foreigners are bad not because they lack mechanics. Quite the contrary, a fair number of foreigners (especially the Chinese) have excellent mechanics. But at the same time they have no idea what they are doing, that is their weakness. Korean amateurs have great decision making and solid builds, and most pros *cough Rock cough* can be trusted to consistently make strong or great decisions.
Anyways, this build is a pretty useful one but not an optimal, use-every game one. Using the wallin which signals sair/reaver, and that possibly combined with the cross positions made Calm try to cut corners a bit. If the Zerg sees it coming it's clearly hopeless but by disguising it the build can have nice dividends.
Calling it lucky is just stupid. Is Jaedong lucky because his muta harass flails around then finds a weak point and wins? Is Bisu lucky because he finally gets that DT in after failing a bunch of times? No of course not. Aggressive play puts a lot of pressure on the defender in hopes that they will make a mistake, then tries to exploit that mistake. In this case Calm pursued DTs too far and made a round of drones to replace his casualties. It's also possible that Calm may have thought Backho would give up his harass sooner than he really did, it's hard to say.
Also, if the Zerg goes lurkers quickly instead of the mass/pure hydra route they get ripped to pieces far easier, making this rather strong on a lurker-friendly map like Heartbreak. This is true of PvZ harass builds in general, ala Bisu vs Effort on HBR.
I do think that sparing a dt and a half for faster speed would be well worth it though, though when that would be best is uncertain. 2nd wave?
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Ver is a great poster.
You guys should look at game 3 and compare it to game 1, as Plexa hinted, rather, told, you to in Vol. 1 of Backseat.
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On October 19 2009 16:00 Ver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote:
People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best. this widespread misconception is hilarious yet annoying. Foreigners are bad not because they lack mechanics. Quite the contrary, a fair number of foreigners (especially the Chinese) have excellent mechanics. But at the same time they have no idea what they are doing, that is their weakness. Korean amateurs have great decision making and solid builds, and most pros *cough Rock cough* can be trusted to consistently make strong or great decisions.
There's a difference between intelligience(in this case IQ only in terms of SC play) and knowledge. A person can have great knowledge at something and still be stupid. Koreans have great knowledge about SC. But at any given time during a game, they don't always make the best decisions.
I don't know how you arrived at Chinese having mechanics anywhere close to Korean level. As someone who's listened to quite a bit of commentary from top Chinese players, they're pretty much think it's on another stratosphere.
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Ver, you have some solid argument behind you, but these days you really need to turn hardcore with your APM (and, more importantly, effective APM) to achieve something. Making decisions is rather secondary to this.
The problem with foreginers is IMO that they have little professional support/gaming industry behind them. Compared to Koreans, there are less events and less money into it, not to mention the level of coaching in Korea. So Korean overall preparation is that much better.
Also, I can recall an interview with IdrA, when he said that after joining Korean pro-scene he had to drastically change his gaming habits (meaning: hotkey distribution, multitasking issues etc.). Seems that Koreans have found themselves more efficient way of computing.
Finally, I agree that we shouldn't call BackHo's build 'stupid'. I would use word 'bold' instead. However, his win is not a solution to Toss' overall weakness in recent PvZ. In fact rather supports the thesis of PvZ imbalances, because if P needs to play that crazy to win the games, then it must really be a desperate situation for Aiur.
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EPT
