Watch this game and see how Backho plays. Basically instead of going for early high templar with storm he has like 4 zealots/3-4 dark templar and does a timing push. After that you immediately send 1-2 more groups of 4 dark templar at 1 of the zerg's bases.
From my personal testing and understanding is that this build will mess up Zerg's macro pretty good and you will get some good drone kills off even if they have overlords to see your units just because of the large amount of dark templar you have in their base harassing. I have only played this on the D/D+ level but I believe that it could be viable on higher levels with someone that has good mechanics.
I was able to prevent Zerg from having a 3rd base at times and able to snipe a building in their main at one point in most games I tested this on. After that you have superior micro and can usually safely expand and just make a protoss death ball and roll the Zerg.
What are your opinions on this? Has anyone at a higher level tried this strategy?
BackHo won this game because Calm blundered by letting single DT live into his own base. I don't think this has that much to do with the build; in fact the whole strategy is pretty much all-in
Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively.
Backho was clever (lucky?) and snuck a DT into calm's defenseless main. The build would have flopped if not for that really. Generally, the zerg sim-cities on maps now are too strong to try something like that.
It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
Gee, I wonder what the whole point of the strategy was? Could it be that he was trying to create an overwhelming number of DT so one would get through? Nah, he's a pro, he was just flailing about randomly and got lucky.
Gee, I wonder what the whole point of the strategy was? Could it be that he was trying to create an overwhelming number of DT so one would get through? Nah, he's a pro, he was just flailing about randomly and got lucky.
Getting one in wasnt lucky, but Calm A-not killing it when he chased it into a corner with Hydras and B-not noticing he was losing 15 drones at his main was EXTREMELY lucky. Backho deserved 3-4 drone kills from the ninja DT, the other 12 fall on Calms stupidity, and thats not something you can count on to win you games. If Calm saves half the drones at his main he rolls over Backho.
Well if you watched the game, it was 2-3 diffrent frontlines constantly and when the DT got his drone kills, BackHo nearly also breaked into Calms natural and almost ended it right there.
I'm not saying he shouldnt have atleast pulled his drones, but regarding the situation I think it's understandable and not stupidity.
Gee, I wonder what the whole point of the strategy was? Could it be that he was trying to create an overwhelming number of DT so one would get through? Nah, he's a pro, he was just flailing about randomly and got lucky.
Getting one in wasnt lucky, but Calm A-not killing it when he chased it into a corner with Hydras and B-not noticing he was losing 15 drones at his main was EXTREMELY lucky. Backho deserved 3-4 drone kills from the ninja DT, the other 12 fall on Calms stupidity, and thats not something you can count on to win you games. If Calm saves half the drones at his main he rolls over Backho.
drones die in 1 hit with no minimap ping. I for one don't often look at my main sans upgrading/building new tech buildings at this point in the game as there should be drone saturation already. it's not uncommon for zerg to lose all of their drones to a lone DT
BackHo distracted Calm well enough to sneak in 1 ninja - combination of luck and skill (I mean, you do need some preparation and mindset to sneak in 1 and save it in a corner until your next aTtacK force arrives). Well played by BackHo - if this guy succeeds more creative strategies it'll be a fun season for protoss lovers (myself included).
Now compare July's build with Calm's. Unlike Calm, July has sim-city in his nat AND his third and sunkens at entrances to them. No way you can sneak in some DT's. Besides, BackHo would get owned in 2 more cases: 1. If Calm would go muta before massing hydras. 2. If Calm would add some lurkers (or even just sunkens for that matter).
It wasn't brilliant play by BackHo. It was sloppy play by Calm in this case.
On October 19 2009 05:51 ix wrote: He was just flailing about randomly and got lucky.
You were sarcastic when saying this, but this is seriously what Backho seems to be doing every single game. No game sense and no adaptability whatsoever. He just goes for something and if it works it works. Like when he suicided his shuttles with reavers against Canata despite scouting the wraith.
Firstly i think this build is hard to see coming since it pretty much follows from buildings you would expect protoss to have around that time anyway. Imagine you're in calm's position. You're expecting a likely early speedlot attack without weapons as has been growing in popularity. Then you see 4 slowlots and 4 dts. It's enough to badly damage what you've got defending one of your two fronts. It can also intercept really well the hydras trying to move from one base to the other to reinforce, because that's the one place you wouldn't think you'd need an overlord, in between your nat and third. Then on top of that if you're constantly freaked out that every one of your three bases is going to get ninjad, and that there are so many damned dts that the regular one sunk and overlord won't be enough, because the sunk could be easily raped or ignored and you could lose 8 drones in two seconds. It's just alot of pressure under which not to make a mistake.
On October 19 2009 03:39 Fontong wrote: Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively.
If you're so high and might to call a pro-gamer retarded why aren't you pro?
Anyway i think this is a pretty interesting game, but the strong point of this tactic is catching the zerg off guard, it's just completely unexpected, and imo what we need is something to break standards, it makes for very interesting games!
On another note, that intro is looking promising, anyone happen to know the song used in it?
I can't wait to see the thread when a Protoss uses a heavy DA/Archon army.
As to the OP, it was a pretty stupid build from Backho imho. Calm didn't know what was coming until later which is probably why he wasn't that prepared. Also from what a friend told me, Backho's wall in is pretty much how a Protoss walls in when he plans to use a reaver/sair army (no space for large units to move out) so that just MAY have thrown Calm off guard too.
I still think it was pretty good, but otherwise a one time use build (kinda like the fantasy build) This build is easily countered by lurkers OR mutalisks. The reason why it worked was (1) Ninja DT, and (2) a bit of panicking by Calm; he shoulda morphed like 4/5 hydras to lurkers, or just mad a few mutalisks earlier.
Backho's win wasn't primarily based on luck, but this isn't a good build to use except as a one-shot deal. This is similar to a toned down version of vulture harass in TvP. Of course, vultures are much better, but the goal of this build is similar-to make the opponent lose their cool and expose themselves. Yes, if Calm remained calm he would've won, but that's exactly what the build is trying to exploit.
I actually believe a corsair->scout tech with speed switch with dts is a good idea. Because once ovies get speed, its pretty hard for sairs to take down ovie quickly enough to avoid a counter(scourge and hydra damage). You can micro 8 or 9 scouts to take out ovies in 1 hit then run and fight scourge kinda like vulture micro,harass undefended expos, and harass lone hydras or small groups of lings.
I guess eventually zerg will catch on and build spores in every base to defend against dts + scouts. But then you can fake them out with 1 scout and make them waste resources.
Just a theory, applaud my brilliance or call me a retard, discuss
On October 19 2009 14:26 lone_hydra wrote: Response to mass scouts vs zerg
I actually believe a corsair->scout tech with speed switch with dts is a good idea. Because once ovies get speed, its pretty hard for sairs to take down ovie quickly enough to avoid a counter(scourge and hydra damage). You can micro 8 or 9 scouts to take out ovies in 1 hit then run and fight scourge kinda like vulture micro,harass undefended expos, and harass lone hydras or small groups of lings.
I guess eventually zerg will catch on and build spores in every base to defend against dts + scouts. But then you can fake them out with 1 scout and make them waste resources.
Just a theory, applaud my brilliance or call me a retard, discuss
zerg will make a lot of hydras, which totally own scouts, to protect their overlords. maybe they'll advance a little slower to ensure overlord safety. but with protoss using so much $ on scouts + scout upgs, they'll have no $ for a ground army
Thats where the dts come in. Scouts have range 4 and alot of shield. With good micro it is possible in theory to take out ovies with small damages to scouts (muta vs marine micro kinda thing). Lets see zerg build so many hydras while being supply blocked. Scouts destroy detection, dts defend, harass, or maybe even map control?
I'm a zerg main and I rarely use toss, so there may be many logical gaps as fps pointed out, but im just trying to contribute to the new Pvz revolution.
One thing to note is that Calm was incredibly greedy and really skimped on sunkens. If DTs get used again, all Calm needs to do is put a sunken at each base with an ovie. Insta-win.
On October 19 2009 03:39 Fontong wrote: Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively.
If you're so high and might to call a pro-gamer retarded why aren't you pro?
I just want to say as much as I respect and am in awe of progamers' skills, they aren't the best decision-makers around. People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
Calm made a mistake of letting dts just walk into his base. Zealot dark templar is interesting because once you manage to sneak a dt into their base, then you just need to attack with your zealots to distract them while your dt is racking up drone kills. As everyone knows, losing drones is huge for a zerg player since their production will be halted for a while. But a normal player usually won't allow dt to just walk right by. Its just that backho is so awesome.
On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote: People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
this widespread misconception is hilarious yet annoying.
Foreigners are bad not because they lack mechanics. Quite the contrary, a fair number of foreigners (especially the Chinese) have excellent mechanics. But at the same time they have no idea what they are doing, that is their weakness. Korean amateurs have great decision making and solid builds, and most pros *cough Rock cough* can be trusted to consistently make strong or great decisions.
Anyways, this build is a pretty useful one but not an optimal, use-every game one. Using the wallin which signals sair/reaver, and that possibly combined with the cross positions made Calm try to cut corners a bit. If the Zerg sees it coming it's clearly hopeless but by disguising it the build can have nice dividends.
Calling it lucky is just stupid. Is Jaedong lucky because his muta harass flails around then finds a weak point and wins? Is Bisu lucky because he finally gets that DT in after failing a bunch of times? No of course not. Aggressive play puts a lot of pressure on the defender in hopes that they will make a mistake, then tries to exploit that mistake. In this case Calm pursued DTs too far and made a round of drones to replace his casualties. It's also possible that Calm may have thought Backho would give up his harass sooner than he really did, it's hard to say.
Also, if the Zerg goes lurkers quickly instead of the mass/pure hydra route they get ripped to pieces far easier, making this rather strong on a lurker-friendly map like Heartbreak. This is true of PvZ harass builds in general, ala Bisu vs Effort on HBR.
I do think that sparing a dt and a half for faster speed would be well worth it though, though when that would be best is uncertain. 2nd wave?
On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote: People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
this widespread misconception is hilarious yet annoying.
Foreigners are bad not because they lack mechanics. Quite the contrary, a fair number of foreigners (especially the Chinese) have excellent mechanics. But at the same time they have no idea what they are doing, that is their weakness. Korean amateurs have great decision making and solid builds, and most pros *cough Rock cough* can be trusted to consistently make strong or great decisions.
There's a difference between intelligience(in this case IQ only in terms of SC play) and knowledge. A person can have great knowledge at something and still be stupid. Koreans have great knowledge about SC. But at any given time during a game, they don't always make the best decisions.
I don't know how you arrived at Chinese having mechanics anywhere close to Korean level. As someone who's listened to quite a bit of commentary from top Chinese players, they're pretty much think it's on another stratosphere.
Ver, you have some solid argument behind you, but these days you really need to turn hardcore with your APM (and, more importantly, effective APM) to achieve something. Making decisions is rather secondary to this.
The problem with foreginers is IMO that they have little professional support/gaming industry behind them. Compared to Koreans, there are less events and less money into it, not to mention the level of coaching in Korea. So Korean overall preparation is that much better.
Also, I can recall an interview with IdrA, when he said that after joining Korean pro-scene he had to drastically change his gaming habits (meaning: hotkey distribution, multitasking issues etc.). Seems that Koreans have found themselves more efficient way of computing.
Finally, I agree that we shouldn't call BackHo's build 'stupid'. I would use word 'bold' instead. However, his win is not a solution to Toss' overall weakness in recent PvZ. In fact rather supports the thesis of PvZ imbalances, because if P needs to play that crazy to win the games, then it must really be a desperate situation for Aiur.
On October 19 2009 17:41 Vekzel wrote:Finally, I agree that we shouldn't call BackHo's build 'stupid'. I would use word 'bold' instead. However, his win is not a solution to Toss' overall weakness in recent PvZ. In fact rather supports the thesis of PvZ imbalances, because if P needs to play that crazy to win the games, then it must really be a desperate situation for Aiur.
Or, it might just be that Backho vs Calm, Backho needs to play like that to win games.
Yup. P's don't need to play that crazy to win games. It was Calm's mistake that let BackHo win. And if BackHo is such a revolutionist and has found the way to beat Zergs on a consistent basis, how would you explain his next 2 games vs Calm?
"It was Calm's mistake that let BackHo win." It's a harassment build. Then All of Fantasy's TvP games are his opponents fault for letting the vultures into their base?
On October 20 2009 11:38 Avidkeystamper wrote: "It was Calm's mistake that let BackHo win." It's a harassment build. Then All of Fantasy's TvP games are his opponents fault for letting the vultures into their base?
if backho can consistently pull something off like this against other good players then this is a good strategy. fantasy's tvp games are consistently centered around his vulture harass and has proven time and again that it is a viable strategy.
i got stoved the other day by a jerk korean. does that make it a good strategy? no (though chef would argue otherwise). the stove is a harassment build with its scouts. does that make mass scouts a good harass move? no. did it win that jerk korean the game? yes. i responded incorrectly and went on tilt. same thing: calm responded incorrectly and went on tilt vs backho's mass DTs.
if backho can do this every game and pull it off successfully, then yes it becomes a good strategy. else, like the stove, it is a cool build but not viable in the long run.
I'm not saying it's a good strategy. It's just misleading to say that Calm lost the game more than Backho won it because the entire point of the build is to sneak in a DT.
On October 20 2009 12:11 JohannesH wrote: You dont need to be able to pull it off every game for it to be a good strategy. It's enough that it works when you use it.
but that isn't the purpose of the thread. the purpose of the thread is to discuss whether or not this is a good, viable build that can be used as another alternative post-forge FE opening.
look at the op:
On October 19 2009 02:48 Whiplash wrote: I have only played this on the D/D+ level but I believe that it could be viable on higher levels with someone that has good mechanics.
A rather risky strategy, if the Zerg even manages to keep the units running astray, he won't be able to get his money's worth for the lost gas spent on those DT's that could have went for ht and tech upgrades. If the zerg is able to clump his buildings together to keep the slow moving dts from hitting hydras/sunks up a ramp or a choke, its a complete fail for him, zerg will secure a strong economic advantage from there, and freely expo with all those units saved up.
A few months ago I saw a youtube highlights clip of some game, diagonal positions, toss player went pure dts vs a zerg that apparently went 3 hatch? Wasn't an FE though, was absolutely sick timing, killed him before he could get his lair tech up, but I doubt it could be a consistent build.
On October 20 2009 13:16 druj wrote: A rather risky strategy, if the Zerg even manages to keep the units running astray, he won't be able to get his money's worth for the lost gas spent on those DT's that could have went for ht and tech upgrades. If the zerg is able to clump his buildings together to keep the slow moving dts from hitting hydras/sunks up a ramp or a choke, its a complete fail for him, zerg will secure a strong economic advantage from there, and freely expo with all those units saved up.
A few months ago I saw a youtube highlights clip of some game, diagonal positions, toss player went pure dts vs a zerg that apparently went 3 hatch? Wasn't an FE though, was absolutely sick timing, killed him before he could get his lair tech up, but I doubt it could be a consistent build.
Yellow vs Anytime? That game made the pimpest play list. And if it is on the Pimpest play list, it's probably not reliable after it's been done.
This is a build I have a great deal of experience with because it featured in my ongoing research into finding out every single way to beat a superior player using dark templars. In short, it doesn't work. To provide slightly more detail, these days zergs wallin worse than terrans and rush overlord speed along with a decent number of hydra. There's pretty much no way you're getting anything in unless the zerg fucks up hard, and even then they have to fuck up hard again not to notice. If a zerg does shit right (proper wallin, proper overlord spread, hydra at each base) this will not get in and because the P always has an inferior army (hydra are simply too cost effective against zealots/dt, you need storm) he won't be able to force an entry.
Feel free to use it at D rank because D ranks won't have all the basic shit down and won't lolblock it. But if you're playing at D rank then you'll probably forget the archives anyway so whatever. This isn't new or revolutionary though. It's a dead end build, as skill levels increase the effectiveness decreases, a D will beat a D with this, a B will beat a C with this, a B won't beat a B with this and an A might lose to a B with this.
When you do a build you're investing your time in getting good at that build. Your mechanics and multitasking improve but at the same time your familiarity with the build you're using will improve. You should invest your time in builds that do not have skill ceilings because otherwise you reach a point where your skills are decent but you're being let down by using weak builds or unfamiliarity with the builds that work at any level.
On October 20 2009 21:29 Kwark wrote: This is a build I have a great deal of experience with because it featured in my ongoing research into finding out every single way to beat a superior player using dark templars.
You are now officially my least favourite player ever. :D
On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote: People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
this widespread misconception is hilarious yet annoying.
Foreigners are bad not because they lack mechanics. Quite the contrary, a fair number of foreigners (especially the Chinese) have excellent mechanics. But at the same time they have no idea what they are doing, that is their weakness. Korean amateurs have great decision making and solid builds, and most pros *cough Rock cough* can be trusted to consistently make strong or great decisions.
foreigners are bad both because of mechanics and because of decision making, and most korean amateurs are robots. they do have solid builds but its not a result of their decision making or intelligence.
On October 20 2009 21:29 Kwark wrote:It's a dead end build, as skill levels increase the effectiveness decreases, a D will beat a D with this, a B will beat a C with this, a B won't beat a B with this and an A might lose to a B with this.
Using everyday logic, regardless of my starcraft knowledge: Why is it then that an A++ player opted for this build against an other A++ player? And what did he scout in Calm's build that made him stick with it?
I cannot believe that it only worked because its so bad, he shouldnt have been using it in the first place:-p There must be something to this build that we're missing...
On October 20 2009 21:29 Kwark wrote:It's a dead end build, as skill levels increase the effectiveness decreases, a D will beat a D with this, a B will beat a C with this, a B won't beat a B with this and an A might lose to a B with this.
Using everyday logic, regardless of my starcraft knowledge: Why is it then that an A++ player opted for this build against an other A++ player? And what did he scout in Calm's build that made him stick with it?
I cannot believe that it only worked because its so bad, he shouldnt have been using it in the first place:-p There must be something to this build that we're missing...
I think you are severly overrating Backho. As I mentioned earlier, this is the guy who suicided reaver filled shuttles despite scouting that Canata had gone for wraith. That's what he does; stupid shit. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't. Against Calm, his stupid shit worked.
i like this build.. i think the timing is right that the hydras are still not that many and the zealot/dt army can still fight off the amount of hydras which makes the probability of sneaking a dt bigger..
An OGN commentator that was watching this game (the game wasn't broadcasted on OGN) thought Backho was being retarded when he kept massing dts. He was really surprised when it worked. Calm later said that he lost because he really wasn't expecting Backho to continue dt use after his initial harassment completely failed.
On October 20 2009 22:59 Stimpacked wrote: i like this build.. i think the timing is right that the hydras are still not that many and the zealot/dt army can still fight off the amount of hydras which makes the probability of sneaking a dt bigger..
On October 20 2009 21:29 Kwark wrote:It's a dead end build, as skill levels increase the effectiveness decreases, a D will beat a D with this, a B will beat a C with this, a B won't beat a B with this and an A might lose to a B with this.
Using everyday logic, regardless of my starcraft knowledge: Why is it then that an A++ player opted for this build against an other A++ player? And what did he scout in Calm's build that made him stick with it?
I cannot believe that it only worked because its so bad, he shouldnt have been using it in the first place:-p There must be something to this build that we're missing...
No, there's something to this player that you're missing. This is BackHo. The BackHo! He plays by no mans rules but his own. Everyday logic simply isn't relevant. BackHo just does shit. He rolled his build order dice, it decided he was going to make dts this game and that's what happened.
On October 19 2009 15:00 baubo wrote: One thing to note is that Calm was incredibly greedy and really skimped on sunkens. If DTs get used again, all Calm needs to do is put a sunken at each base with an ovie. Insta-win.
On October 19 2009 03:39 Fontong wrote: Looooool typical backho being retarded, it was just luck that he won. If you really watched the game you would have seen how easily his attacks were handled for the most part. It was just the ninja DT that did the trick and allowed him to win.
This is even a pretty bad map to use the strat on. It would be more effective on a map with an exposed 3rd rather than a map with a 3rd that can be walled very effectively.
If you're so high and might to call a pro-gamer retarded why aren't you pro?
I just want to say as much as I respect and am in awe of progamers' skills, they aren't the best decision-makers around. People like us aren't amateurs because we lack intelligence. But rather it's not feasible for us to sleep/eat SC 24/7 and raise our APM to 300+ to compete with the best.
If you really think high apm and good macro mechanics will make you pro, you're sadly mistaken, there are alot of people in iCCup with 300+ APM and insane mechanics, so why aren't they pro?
EPT
